Hell is not permanent.

[red77]

Jipsah, hi, no I don't believe God punishes ingorance. I belive a knowledge of God is intinsic, God knows your heart. The thief on the cross said "remember me to your father" and Jesus forgave his sin, He knew his heart. Most people of the world believe in a "god" of sorts. It is disobediance to the truth you know, and we know more than we admit, that causes separation from God. I know how to ask for forgiveness, I have to follow that knowledge.
No one will stand before God, convicted and condemned and not know why.
That is what I believe.
timlamb

From the Gospel of John chapter 12; "... The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep itfor eternal life. Who ever serves me must follow me; and where I am my servant will also be. My father will honor the one who serves me. ...Put you trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of the light.
"when a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come to the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him for the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the father who sent me commanded me. I know that His command leads to eternal life. So what ever I say is just what the father has told me to say..."
Chapter 14 beginning at verse 21; Whoever has my commands and obeys them, is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
"... If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

I know you are going to point out that I left out the verse 32 in chapter 12, that says "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
The all, means not just the Jews, but men of all nations.
We are told to love this life less (hate) than the live eternal we anticipate.
He speaks of serving, following, honor, and trust, to become children of the light (His children).
He brings us into the light(knowledge) by his words, and we will be judged "on the last day" in accorance to those words.
The father commanded those words, and His commands lead to eternal life.
If you love Him, you will obey His commands, and the father will then love you, and make his home with you.
I am not going to deal with the issue of those who have never heard the gospel, I trust God to deal with them fairly.
There is a wrath that comes with justice, and I will not defend it or make excuses for it. Those who know what Jesus said, know the way to salvation, and we know the conciquences. Do what you will, I choose to follow the Lord, spread the gospel, and to try to encourage others to do the same. Nothing in this arguement has brought us one step closer to God, and that should be our goal, drawing closer to God.
Look up righteous in the dictionary. Righteousness is truth beyond loyalties, love, or any emotion; it is just, holding to the standards, no exceptions, perfect and pure and accepting no less. We are perfect and pure only through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus, those who do not accept Him by faith, will be judged, righteously; on the last day.
timlamb

but what about the bible definition of love....? doesnt it say somewhere that love is beyond everything, even judgement....?

 

[Soul Searcher]

but what about the bible definition of love....? doesnt it say somewhere that love is beyond everything, even judgement....?

1Co 13:4 Love is always patient, Love is always kind, Love is never envious Or vaunted up with pride. Nor is she conceited,
1Co 13:5 And never is she rude, Never does she think of self Or ever get annoyed. She never is resentful,
1Co 13:6 Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene'er the truth should win.
1Co 13:7 She bears up under everything, Believes the best in all, There is no limit to her hope, And never will she fall.

1Pe 4:8 and, before all things, to one another having the earnest love, because the love shall cover a multitude of sins;

Jam 2:13 For merciless judgment will come to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Is this what you were looking for?

 

[red77]

1Co 13:4 Love is always patient, Love is always kind, Love is never envious Or vaunted up with pride. Nor is she conceited,
1Co 13:5 And never is she rude, Never does she think of self Or ever get annoyed. She never is resentful,
1Co 13:6 Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene'er the truth should win.
1Co 13:7 She bears up under everything, Believes the best in all, There is no limit to her hope, And never will she fall.

1Pe 4:8 and, before all things, to one another having the earnest love, because the love shall cover a multitude of sins;

Jam 2:13 For merciless judgment will come to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Is this what you were looking for?

Yep...!! Thats pretty much the one i was on about all right! The last bit of that as well: 'Mercy triumphs over judgement' ties in with a lot of stuff as well........

 

[timlamb]

but what about the bible definition of love....? doesnt it say somewhere that love is beyond everything, even judgement....?

First, admittedly not being a scholar, I know that we use the word love for many different words in translation.
We learn from Jesus, as recorded in the gospel of John, about God's love for those who choose to believe in Jesus and follow, honor, have faith.
Paul, writing to the followers of Jesus in Corinth, tells of the great power of that love, even to the statement, "the greatest of these is love" refering to faith and hope. Is love the result of faith, or faith possible, because of love? I would say the latter; I would say faith is an expression of love.
I love apples, but I don't have any use for the rotten ones. I will clean a dirty one, and love it as though it were never dirty. But one that rots, I probably won't even save for seed. I will use the seed of the good ones. The good apple has much to offer me, a rotten one will be removed from me and will never be a part of me.
Rough analogy but effective.
God loves the Son, the rest of us must be adopted. Would you adopt one who hates your son?
NO ONE WILL GO TO HELL LOVING JESUS!!!
Sorry for shouting.
Look at the heros of faith in the old testiment, they were ordinary and imperfect, but God knew their heart, they trusted Him, and loved Him.

 

[red77]

There is wisdom in KCDAD's post? See my reponse to it below.

It is not about me! It is not about what I think, what I feel, what I want, or anything else about me. See the 28 passages spoken by Jesus I posted.

"I couldn't. And I know that this tenderness in my heart was learned from God. And could my mercy exceed God's mercy? I don't think so!" Do you see any scripture there? I don't. Just like all the other universalists, it is all about you.

And everybody else.........thats one of the main points about universalism, its not just about me or you, its a hope for everyone thats living, lived or about to......
its also very hard, as i hope you'll agree, to submit a post without frequent use of the word 'I' or 'me' or 'my'.......it does not mean that the poster is self absorbed........!

 

[timlamb]

Yep...!! Thats pretty much the one i was on about all right! The last bit of that as well: 'Mercy triumphs over judgement' ties in with a lot of stuff as well........

James 2:13, by it's self, as you wish to use it, contradicts it's self, making it void, out of context.
Jesus Christ is God's mercy imbodied. And Jesus Christ triumphs over judgement.
Jesus offered mercy to us, the faithful have mercy and no judgment, the faithful, who have recieved mercy, will show mercy.
know mercy, no judgement;
no mercy, know judgement

 

[red77]

First, admittedly not being a scholar, I know that we use the word love for many different words in translation.
We learn from Jesus, as recorded in the gospel of John, about God's love for those who choose to believe in Jesus and follow, honor, have faith.
Paul, writing to the followers of Jesus in Corinth, tells of the great power of that love, even to the statement, "the greatest of these is love" refering to faith and hope. Is love the result of faith, or faith possible, because of love? I would say the latter; I would say faith is an expression of love.
I love apples, but I don't have any use for the rotten ones. I will clean a dirty one, and love it as though it were never dirty. But one that rots, I probably won't even save for seed. I will use the seed of the good ones. The good apple has much to offer me, a rotten one will be removed from me and will never be a part of me.
Rough analogy but effective.
God loves the Son, the rest of us must be adopted. Would you adopt one who hates your son?
NO ONE WILL GO TO HELL LOVING JESUS!!!
Sorry for shouting.
Look at the heros of faith in the old testiment, they were ordinary and imperfect, but God knew their heart, they trusted Him, and loved Him.

ok, firstly your point about adopting someone who hates my son, i take it this has to be a reference for in your opinion people hating Jesus.......how many people in this world do you think actually do that.....? A lot of people in this life are just not sure whether Jesus/God exists....that is hardly the same thing,
your point about the apples.....well one of the people who could be described as a rotten apple would be Saul before his conversion, he was responsible for the murder of several christians before the road to damascus incident, and here again is where i would have to question the justice, If God had not chosen to appear before saul on that road what would have happened to him? It didnt seem too likely that he was going to repent of his own free will and change otherwise, cant know for sure but it doesnt sem likely......chances are he would have carried on killing.......yet because God does not reveal himself in this way to other people they have to spend an eternity in hell because they only realise he exists after they've died here........the vast majority of which will not have done anything as brutal as muder..........how does this tie up exactly.........? Its why this doctrine makes no sense as far as I'm concerned....

 

[timlamb]

ok, firstly your point about adopting someone who hates my son, i take it this has to be a reference for in your opinion people hating Jesus.......how many people in this world do you think actually do that.....? A lot of people in this life are just not sure whether Jesus/God exists....that is hardly the same thing,
your point about the apples.....well one of the people who could be described as a rotten apple would be Saul before his conversion, he was responsible for the murder of several christians before the road to damascus incident, and here again is where i would have to question the justice, If God had not chosen to appear before saul on that road what would have happened to him? It didnt seem too likely that he was going to repent of his own free will and change otherwise, cant know for sure but it doesnt sem likely......chances are he would have carried on killing.......yet because God does not reveal himself in this way to other people they have to spend an eternity in hell because they only realise he exists after they've died here........the vast majority of which will not have done anything as brutal as muder..........how does this tie up exactly.........? Its why this doctrine makes no sense as far as I'm concerned....

Paul was filthy, but cleanable. It was just an analogy, poke as many holes as you want.
Hey, the word is out, Jesus lives. His sheep know his voice. You don't think todays world is the definition of "The time is at hand". This is not a fence you can just sit on, the evidence is clear. Read it, study, ponder, pray; Jesus lived, that is history. Did He die for you? that is eternity.

 

[red77]

Paul was filthy, but cleanable. It was just an analogy, poke as many holes as you want.
Hey, the word is out, Jesus lives. His sheep know his voice. You don't think todays world is the definition of "The time is at hand". This is not a fence you can just sit on, the evidence is clear. Read it, study, ponder, pray; Jesus lived, that is history. Did He die for you? that is eternity.

todays world is a mess, what i want is a hope that everything will be made right and i'm not sitting on a fence when i'm saying that, i do not believe in an eternal hell as you have described, i am not exactly being vague about that, deep within me i know it makes no sense and is cruel, all my posts i believe have made that pretty clear, you choose to believe your own doctrine and i'll do the same

 

[Soul Searcher]

James 2:13, by it's self, as you wish to use it, contradicts it's self, making it void, out of context.
Jesus Christ is God's mercy imbodied. And Jesus Christ triumphs over judgement.
Jesus offered mercy to us, the faithful have mercy and no judgment, the faithful, who have recieved mercy, will show mercy.
know mercy, no judgement;
no mercy, know judgement

Perhaps I should point out that Jesus also said "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy" To me this is very clearly talking about showing mercy to others. It is not talking about a belief system but an action taken by us or not taken as the case may be.

There are actaully many verses that say the same thing in one way or another. I could point them out if need be but I think that most of us should already know these by heart.

 

[buddy mack]

Perhaps I should point out that Jesus also said "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy" To me this is very clearly talking about showing mercy to others. It is not talking about a belief system but an action taken by us or not taken as the case may be.

There are actaully many verses that say the same thing in one way or another. I could point them out if need be but I think that most of us should already know these by heart.

at a church revival way way back in the woods of a country baptist church. the preacher was apreaching hell fire and brimstone, and a young edumated man stood up and pointed his finder at the preacher and said, "old man, don't you know there isnt a hell!" and the preacher yelled back. "THE HELL THERE AINT!"

 

[Soul Searcher]

Some text that I found very interesting from the Gospel of the Nazerines.

13."How will faith in what they receive profit them that hold it in unrighteousness? They who have love have all things, and without love there is nothing worth. Let each hold what they see to be the truth in love, knowing that where love is not, truth is a dead letter and profits nothing."

14."There abide goodness, and truth, and beauty, but the greatest of these is goodness. If any have hatred to their fellows, and harden their hearts to the creatures of God's hands, how can they see truth to salvation, seeing their eyes are blinded and their hearts are hardened to God's creation."

15."As I have received the truth, so have I given it to you. Let each receive it according to their light and ability to understand, and don't persecute those who receive it after a different interpretation."

16."For truth is the might of God, and it shall prevail in the end over all errors. But the holy law which I have given is plain for all, and just and good, Let all observe it for the salvation of their souls."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Even if you've never heard of it. But ignorance is no excuse, and if you never heard of our Lord then you just have to be tortured for all eternity to satisfy God's "righteousness".
Right.[/SIZE]

What saith scripture?

KJV Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

WEB Rom 4:15 For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience.

5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law.​

But many, many, people in most western countries cannot say, "I did not know. I never heard." Billboards, signs, TV, radio, street preachers, direct mail advertising, word of mouth from friends, relatives, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]but what about the bible definition of love....? doesnt it say somewhere that love is beyond everything, even judgement....?[/SIZE]

A text without a context is a pretext.

 

[KCDAD]

What saith scripture?But many, many, people in most western countries cannot say, "I did not know. I never heard." Billboards, signs, TV, radio, street preachers, direct mail advertising, word of mouth from friends, relatives, etc.

Yeah, and sub saharan Africa, central highlands China... do you know there are placees in the world that don't have cell phones? Places that don't have HD TV? There are even places that don't get USA Today. Over 50% of the world is ILLITERATE, UNEDUCATED, living hand to mouth, with no thought except where their next meal may come from... you gonna preach to them, brother? You gonna give them the good news?

 

[KCDAD]

A text without a context is a pretext.

And I Cor 13: 1,2 and scripture without love is CLANG CLANG CLANG

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Notice a contrtadiction here? Apparently it is about all about you.[/SIZE]

No contradiction and no it is not about me. You ignored the context of the post you quoted.

The first sentence, "It is not about what I "believe" and might or might not do if I thought as you do etc., etc., etc.," summarizes the universalist views I have seen posted here repeatedly, e.g. "I don't believe in hell." "I can't accept hell." "I don't think God would send anyone to hell." etc. etc.

The second sentence does not state my views about universalism or eternal punishment, but addresses the fact that the response I quoted did not address anything that I had posted.

This ignores everything I posted. Ignores my questions about the text. Ignores the Jewish belief about Gehenna, that I documented...​

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Yeah, and sub saharan Africa, central highlands China... do you know there are placees in the world that don't have cell phones? Places that don't have HD TV? There are even places that don't get USA Today. Over 50% of the world is ILLITERATE, UNEDUCATED, living hand to mouth, with no thought except where their next meal may come from... you gonna preach to them, brother? You gonna give them the good news?[/SIZE]

I have been living, teaching, and preaching in a country that is predominately Buddhist and Animist for almost 8 years. I have spent less than 2 months in the U.S. during this time. What are YOU doing about "sub saharan Africa, central highlands China" etc., etc. etc.?

A few years ago a recently saved friend of mine went to Africa on a 2 week missionary trip. He had no religious training or education, he didn't know any better, he just started teaching and preaching about Jesus and salvation. Silly boy started anointing with oil and people were being healed.

Some of the local opponents brought the village witch doctor to put a spell on him. When those who were being saved and healed told him, he went out, pointed his finger at the witch doctor, and said, "Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world."

Some of my friends were caught in the Tsunami in Phuket a year or two ago. They survived. Afterward our congregation raised money and sent volunteer "missionaries" to that area to help build homes, schools, and clinics, and preach and teach.

What did you say you were doing about all those illiterate, uneducated, people in the world? Or does it not matter because they will all be saved anyway?

[SIZE=-1]And I Cor 13: 1,2 and scripture without love is CLANG CLANG CLANG[/SIZE]

First take the log out of your own eye.

 

[red77]

A text without a context is a pretext.

Ok...........i dont tend to use a lot of scriptural refences in what i write, to me Christianity comes just as much from the inside as it does from constantly having to quote bible texts in order to make a point

let me ask you something Der Alter, and i would like you to give me an honest answer if you can with no scripture references or quotes, just your honest feelings from you as a human being ;
given the choice would you prefer for there to be a hell of eternal torment people or would you not?
To be honest if you're going to respond with 'the bible says'.........then please dont bother answering, just to specify again i'm interested in what your thoughts are as a person on this and if you think hell should exist....

 

[Der Alte]

at a church revival way way back in the woods of a country baptist church. the preacher was apreaching hell fire and brimstone, and a young edumated man stood up and pointed his finder at the preacher and said, "old man, don't you know there isnt a hell!" and the preacher yelled back. "THE HELL THERE AINT!"

You mispeled "edumacated."