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Hell is not permanent.

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Soul Searcher

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Havahope said:
Sorry, I can't read Greek. Would you please answer in English? Thanks.
Looks like Romans 1:17 - 20

Ironically it goes on to say that they have had thier hearts darkened and professing themselves wise they became fools.

The question that comes to mind is who displays the darkened heart?

Is it those who have faith that the Love of God will redeem all lost souls?
or
Is it those who have faith that most of mankind will be tortured by thier loving God for all eternity?
 
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buddy mack

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RichWh1 said:
[/size][/font]

I have to agree with you on that. The Bible makes it quite clear that punishment is forever and Hell, while it is called the grave, is the first death. The second death has no hades. but Gehenna..

Yours in Christ

RichWh1



u can call it hell or u can call me johnson.
it really doesnt matter what you call it, it is what Jesus had to say about the place of punishment and what is is like and can it be escaped from. the answer is found in Luke chapter 16. From this chapter it is clear to me, U is not coming back.
 
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red77

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timlamb said:
Red, I don't really care what you think about hell at this point, the hope you look for is in Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Salvation doesn't come in some after life revelation, it is the choice you make with the knowledge you have, it is in every decision you will make up to the grave, it is deciding to trust the Lord. If this makes you angry, please don't respond, I don't need another chewing out. I bowed out of this thing about fifteen posts ago, but you seemed to want answers, you asked questions, and I did my best.
I mean no harm, I wish you well.
God Bless,
timlamb

Tim, i didnt expect you to give me any answers, i'll admit i got in a debate about this stuff but this is a thread about unorthodox theology where several opinions/views are expressed, and i do believe in salvation after this life otherwise i find it impossible to make sense of the world we're in, you're free to disagree and follow your own interpretation of the scriptures as is everyone, what galls me (and i'm not saying this about you) is that when some of the more unorthodox views are expressed here they're derided, insulted from certain quarters in a very aggresive manner because it seems to be a sin not to just go with the 'traditional' view.........
 
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Jipsah

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timlamb said:
I love apples, but I don't have any use for the rotten ones. I will clean a dirty one, and love it as though it were never dirty. But one that rots, I probably won't even save for seed.
If you're gonna plant 'em the rotten one works just fine. But if apples could be made to suffer, would you feel justified in torturing a rotten apple for the next 1000 years or so because it was rotten?

God loves the Son, the rest of us must be adopted.
And all the rest, tortured. Forever.
 
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Jipsah

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KCDAD said:
you gonna preach to them, brother? You gonna give them the good news?
Yeah, the good news that if they don't accept this new and novel foreign religion you're preaching they'll be tormented in flames forever and ever and ever and ever as a tribute to the justice and mercy of the God you're telling them about.

Given that, they may have some serious doubts about the justice and mercy of this foreign God and how good that "good news" really is.
 
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Jipsah

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Der Alter said:
I as a human would have preferred to not have to make the decision I did have to make this morning concerning my profession.
And you, as you've noted, wish there was no eternal hell. Which seems to make you, fallen sinner that you (and all the rest of us) are, more compassionate than God.

Does that really make sense to you? Luther would only be persuaded by Scripture and plain reason. What does plain reason make of the interpretation of Scripture that has God less merciful and less just than we, fallen depraved sinners, are?
 
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KCDAD

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Havahope said:
I mean, if their sins are not counted against them by reason of their having not heard, wouldn't it be better if none of them heard? That way they could all go to heaven and none would go to hell. Right?

So preaching the Gospel is actually causing people to be damned? Awesome!
 
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Deraj

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Soul Searcher said:
Looks like Romans 1:17 - 20

Ironically it goes on to say that they have had thier hearts darkened and professing themselves wise they became fools.

The question that comes to mind is who displays the darkened heart?

Is it those who have faith that the Love of God will redeem all lost souls?
or
Is it those who have faith that most of mankind will be tortured by thier loving God for all eternity?

It is those who use their beliefs as an excuse to lay back and do what they like and do not listen to others because it is inconvenient to them.
 
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KCDAD

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Der Alter said:
Unbiblical rubbish. Answered here.
Why would you write in Greek? Showing off? Proving the point that our Bible is not written in the language of Jesus... oops, Yeshua, er, Joshua? That what you base your entire life on is a translation of ancient texts from many different times, authors and cultures compiled by either a group of Egyptian Jews or Roman Christians?
 
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KCDAD

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Der Alter said:
Yeah right! Copout. You don't give a fig about,
"sub saharan Africa, central highlands China...Over 50% of the world is ILLITERATE, UNEDUCATED, living hand to mouth, with no thought except where their next meal may come from."​
Do want the illiteracy figures in The United States? Between 30 and 50% of U.S. adults can not read or write. Over 50% can not read a newspaper with understanding at all. (Newspapers do not exceed 7th grade reading level in The United States)
http://www.nrrf.org/essay_Illiteracy.html
At least I am not condemning people to hell (staff edit)... hopefully I am teaching people to think and be critical in their approach to anything man proposes through sermons, scripture or practice.
 
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timlamb

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Jipsah said:
If you're gonna plant 'em the rotten one works just fine. But if apples could be made to suffer, would you feel justified in torturing a rotten apple for the next 1000 years or so because it was rotten?

And all the rest, tortured. Forever.
Like I said, I have plenty of good seed to workwith. and I also said, this is just an analogy, poke as many holes as you want.
People, unlike apples, choose to be rotten.
Righteousness does not have love for unrighteousness.
God rules, in all things. He set aside a place for unrighteousness, away from Him,
Jesus died to make us righteous and acceptable to God.
His mercy replaces judgement and conquers death.
But still the choice is yours.
I don't know the mind of God, and I don't make excuses for Him. He rules, and He made me an offer I can't refuse.
You look at things through the worlds eyes and say "Icannot accept this".

I am just going to concern myself with getting to heaven, from there I will learn of the nature of hell, and I will know the love of God.
 
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KCDAD

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buddy mack said:
u can call it hell or u can call me johnson.
it really doesnt matter what you call it, it is what Jesus had to say about the place of punishment and what is is like and can it be escaped from. the answer is found in Luke chapter 16. From this chapter it is clear to me, U is not coming back.

Well, it is nice you can find your answer in only one book... the problem is that there are so many different explanations of this topic throughout the other 65 books in the canon (which I just learned actually means measuring rod) and certainly others in the apochrypha and other non canonical scriptures... as well as in "non religious" texts. Let me ask you this... how did Judas die? According to Matthew or according to Luke?
 
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Jipsah

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Der Alter said:
[SIZE=+1]δικαιοσυνη γαρ θεου εν αυτω αποκαλυπτεται εκ πιστεως εις πιστιν καθως γεγραπται ο δε δικαιος εκ πιστεως ζησεται
[/SIZE]
로마서 6:23 죄의 삯은 사망이요 하나님의 은사는 그리스도 예수 우리 주 안에 있는 영생이니라

Awright?
 
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katallasso

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timlamb said:
Like I said, I have plenty of good seed to workwith. and I also said, this is just an analogy, poke as many holes as you want.
People, unlike apples, choose to be rotten.
Righteousness does not have love for unrighteousness.
God rules, in all things. He set aside a place for unrighteousness, away from Him,
Jesus died to make us righteous and acceptable to God.
His mercy replaces judgement and conquers death.
But still the choice is yours.
I don't know the mind of God, and I don't make excuses for Him. He rules, and He made me an offer I can't refuse.
You look at things through the worlds eyes and say "Icannot accept this".

I am just going to concern myself with getting to heaven, from there I will learn of the nature of hell, and I will know the love of God.


What about these scriptures is the "worlds eyes"?

Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

John 1:29...The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. (John 15:16)


Titus 2:11...For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
1 Timothy 2:5 & 6....For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 11:15...For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Remember that "No on can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor 12:3

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1)

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)


I'd say there is more than enough scripture here to base our doctrine of Ultimate Reconciliation on.
 
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Jipsah

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timlamb said:
Like I said, I have plenty of good seed to workwith.
In a rotten apple there's typically nothing wrong with the seed. The fruit is supposed to rot, it serves as fertilizer for the seed.

People, unlike apples, choose to be rotten.
Yep, they do. All of us choose to be rotten, no exceptions. There's none righteous, nary a one.

Righteousness does not have love for unrighteousness.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus died to make us righteous and acceptable to God. His mercy replaces judgement and conquers death. But still the choice is yours.
And if you happen to choose wrong, then it's about eternal torture. Which if we weren't changing the language to fit what we believe to be the situation, would make God a merciless fiend.

So the question is simple - is God a merciless fiend? If the answer is no, then we have to figure out how we've misinterpreted the Scripture is such a way as to lead folks to believe that He's a merciless field. If the answer is yes, then let's not try to camoflage it by calling His fiendishness "righteousness" or "justice" in contradiction to what the words really mean.

I don't know the mind of God, and I don't make excuses for Him.
I don't think God needs to have excuses made for Him. I believe that the idea that God behaves in a merciless, barbarous, unjust, and brutal manner is simply wrong.

You look at things through the worlds eyes and say "Icannot accept this".
I use the reason that God has given us and that He told us, when He was here in person, to use. "Come, let us reason together", He said. He didn't say "God is good, but when we say He's good it doesn't really mean good as in good, it just means good because we have to say that whatever He does is good even if it looks like sheer evil." That's baloney. God has instilled the laws of justice and mercy and forgiveness and love in all of us, so that when we violate them our consciences condemn us. To say that those laws have no bearing on God is absurd, because those laws came directly from Him.
 
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Havahope

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The oldest commentary that I have been able to find on Luke 16:19-31 is this one by John Lightfoot (1602-1675). This man seems to have been quite learned in ancient Hebrew beliefs and customs. The commentary is lengthy so I have divided it into two sections so as not to possibly exceed the number of words allowed for one post.

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[There was a certain rich man.] Whoever believes this not to be a parable, but a true story, let him believe also those little friars, whose trade it is to shew the monuments at Jerusalem to pilgrims, and point exactly to the place where the house of the 'rich glutton' stood. Most accurate keepers of antiquity indeed! who, after so many hundreds of years, such overthrows of Jerusalem, such devastations and changes, can rake out of the rubbish the place of so private a house, and such a one too as never had any being, but merely in parable. And that it was a parable, not only the consent of all expositors may assure us, but the thing itself speaks it.
The main scope and design of it seems this, to hint the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, who, though they had Moses and the Prophets, did not believe them, nay, would not believe, though one (even Jesus) arose from the dead. For that conclusion of the parable abundantly evidenceth what it aimed at: "If they hear not Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead."
20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[Lazarus.] I. We shew in our notes upon St. John 11:1, in several instances, that the word Lazar is by contraction used by the Talmudists for Eleazar. The author of Juchasin attests it: in the Jerusalem Talmud every R. Eleazar is written without an Aleph, R. Lazar.
II. In Midras Coheleth there is a certain beggar called Diglus Patragus or Petargus: poor, infirm, naked, and famished. But there could hardly be invented a more convenient name for a poor beggar than Lazar, which signifies the help of God, when he stands in so much need of the help of men.
But perhaps there may be something more aimed at in the name: for since the discourse is concerning Abraham and Lazarus, who would not call to mind Abraham and Eliezer his servant, one born at Damascus, a Gentile by birth, and sometime in posse the heir of Abraham; but shut out of the inheritance by the birth of Isaac, yet restored here into Abraham's bosom? Which I leave to the judgment of the reader, whether it might not hint the calling of the Gentiles into the faith of Abraham.
The Gemarists make Eliezer to accompany his master even in the cave of Machpelah: "R. Baanah painted the sepulchres: when he came to Abraham's cave, he found Eliezer standing at the mouth of it. He saith unto him, 'What is Abraham doing?' To whom he, He lieth in the embraces of Sarah. Then said Baanah, 'Go and tell him that Baanah is at the door,'" &c.
[Full of sores.] In the Hebrew language, stricken with ulcers. Sometimes his body full of ulcers, as in this story: "They tell of Nahum Gamzu, that he was blind, lame of both hands and of both feet, and in all his body full of sores. He was thrown into a ruinous house, the feet of his bed being put into basins full of water, that the ants might not creep upon him. His disciples ask him, 'Rabbi, how hath this mischief befallen thee, when as thou art a just man?'" He gives the reason himself; viz. Because he deferred to give something to a poor man that begged of him. We have the same story in Hieros Peah, where it were worth the while to take notice how they vary in the telling it.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[He was carried by the angels.] The Rabbins have an invention that there are three bands of angels attend the death of wicked men, proclaiming, "There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked." But what conceptions they have of angels being present at the death of good men, let us judge from this following passage:
"The men of Tsippor said, 'Whoever tells us that Rabbi [Judah] is dead, we will kill him.' Bar Kaphra, looking upon them with his head veiled with a hood, said unto them, 'Holy men, and angels took hold of the tables of the covenant, and the hand of the angels prevailed; so that they took away the tables.' They said unto him, 'Is Rabbi dead then?'" The meaning of this parabolizer was this; Holy men would fain have detained R. Judah still in the land of the living, but the angels took him away.
[Into Abraham's bosom.] ...The Jewish schools dispose of the souls of Jews under a threefold phrase, I can hardly say under a threefold state:--
I. In the garden of Eden, or Paradise. Amongst those many instances that might be alleged, even to nauseousness, let us take one wherein this very Abraham is named:
"'He shall be as a tree planted by the rivers of waters.' This is Abraham, whom God took and planted in the land of Israel; or, whom God took and planted in Paradise." Take one instance more of one of equal fame and piety, and that was Moses: "When our master Moses departed into Paradise, he said unto Joshua, 'If thou hast any doubt upon thee about any thing, inquire now of me concerning it.'"
II. Under the throne of glory. We have a long story in Avoth R. Nathan of the angel of death being sent by God to take away the soul of Moses; which when he could not do, "God taketh hold of him himself, and treasureth him up under the throne of glory." And a little after; "Nor is Moses' soul only placed under the throne of glory; but the souls of other just persons also are reposited under the throne of glory."
Moses, in the words quoted before, is in Paradise; in these words, he is under the throne of glory. In another place, "he is in heaven ministering before God." So that under different phrases is the same thing expressed; and this, however, is made evident, that there the garden of Eden was not to be understood of an earthly, but a heavenly paradise. That in Revelation 6:9, of 'souls crying under the altar,' comes pretty near this phrase, of being placed under the throne of glory. For the Jews conceived of the altar as the throne of the Divine Majesty; and for that reason the court of the Sanhedrim was placed so near the altar, that they might be filled with the reverence of the Divine Majesty so near them, while they were giving judgment. Only, whereas there is mention of the souls of the martyrs that had poured out their blood for God, it is an allusion to the blood of the sacrifices that were wont to be poured out at the foot of the altar.
III. In Abraham's bosom: which if you would know what it is, you need seek no further than the Rhemists, our countrymen (with grief be it spoken), if you will believe them; for they upon this place have this passage: "The bosom of Abraham is the resting-place of all them that died in perfect state of grace before Christ's time; heaven, before, being shut from men. It is called in Zachary a lake without water, and sometimes a prison, but most commonly of the divines Limbus patrum; for that it is thought to have been the higher part or brim of hell," &c.
 
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buddy mack

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KCDAD said:
Well, it is nice you can find your answer in only one book... the problem is that there are so many different explanations of this topic throughout the other 65 books in the canon (which I just learned actually means measuring rod) and certainly others in the apochrypha and other non canonical scriptures... as well as in "non religious" texts. Let me ask you this... how did Judas die? According to Matthew or according to Luke?
if it were just one book, or one page or one paragragph or one sentence or one word, oh well one word wouldnt be enough, but if one word was enough and it came from Jesus then it is good enough for me.
besides i hate reading books anyway.
 
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