Hell is not permanent.

[Soul Searcher]

Nowhere else in the Bible does "creature" mean man, I use the whole Bible.

It does not matter what part of the bible you use or do not use the meaning is clear. Man is a creature. Creature is not used when talking about man only, because it would be vauge and missleading.

Bottom line if you believe God created man then you also believe man is a creature. It doesn't take much to see that since man is a creature that every creature would include all men. Of course it also includes dogs and cats and fish and birds and so on.

To say that all creatures does not refer to man is utter nonsense.

 

[timlamb]

Tim, its really a very simple concept. I have the "peace of God, which passes all understanding which keeps my heart and mind through Christ Jesus." For He has "raised me up and made me to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
And is this all that I have to look forward to? No, but even if that were all, I would be grateful for even this. But in the ages to come, I believe that He will exceed even this in His kindness toward me through Christ Jesus, my Lord and Saviour. This is my one great hope, and the anchor which holds me fast, as I press closer and closer toward the shedding of this mortal frame.


James 1: 17. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."


So, man is not among the "things" which God created?

Gen. 1: 27. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Havahope, wonderful, a very strong statement of faith. I was just suprised you would consider this "heaven". If this was all there was, not many people would thank God for it.

I stand corrected, I was going from the concordance in my NIV, where creature is translated to creation. my NKJV does say creature there. If all creatures in heaven, on earth, under earth, and in the sea, including ALL man, praise God, that will be a wonderful day. However, once again, I must say, that by using the entire bible, I do not see that as being all humanity, praising and worshiping God; it would be contrary to what the rest of the scripture says about humanity, and the hatered for the God of the Christian bible that I see.

 

[KCDAD]

I was going from the concordance in my NIV...

Thank you for realizing that Truth can not be found in a book. Books do not but faintly (like through a dark glass) reflect Truth. One must interact with the text. One must be critical in applying the concepts and ideas expressed in the book. One must consider the politics, ethnic and linguistic backgrounds and intention of the authors.

 

[timlamb]

if this is what u think what on earth was the point of your analogy about parents and their wayward children....? Are their any fundamentalists who are capable of seeing things other than in black and white....? I'm sure God does know the hearts of each individual person and why they do and think the things they do, quite frankly there'll be a lot of people who die in this life who are not born again christians, much more than those who are i suspect, but that does not mean that they have rebelled against God and would not want the chance to have a relationship with him once they know he exists....! you make it sound as though people just want nothing to do with God and thats just absurd.....! And it still at the end of the day does not justify torture for no purpose, can u justify torture in this life by men....? Auschwitz for example....? Yet you ask us to believe it to be worthy of God......sometimes i just despair of the sickness of this message.........

Red77, you are not reading my example for truth. All things of God are offered to all people, some hear the voice of their shepard, some are the children of God. many will reject Him, and disbelief is rejection. Atheism is a choice. All, at the time of judgement, will know they were given a choice.
Souls go to hell by their choice, not Gods!
That is what I said.

 

[timlamb]

Thank you for realizing that Truth can not be found in a book. Books do not but faintly (like through a dark glass) reflect Truth. One must interact with the text. One must be critical in applying the concepts and ideas expressed in the book. One must consider the politics, ethnic and linguistic backgrounds and intention of the authors.

KCDAD, I never said truth was not found in the Bible, I missed a scripture, that was my shortcomming, not the
scripture. The bible must be used as a whole book. Scripture finds truth in relation to the book, not in the wisdom af man. We cannot rely on interpretation of a few words, especially when they, by themselves, have a different message than the whole of scripture.
I am no scholar, I read and read for the answers I give. Any mistakes are mine, and in no way discredit the written word of God.

 

[Havahope]

Before poor hope has to go through some inane remark like "all doesn't mean "all", it means "all" christians.

This is the worship that is happening in this scripture.


"every knee shall bow"

Bow here is the word "kampto" Strongs #2578 which means;

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self

The root word being
Homologeo=

To confess/ declare.

A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.

B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

C. To praise and celebrate.

Obviously, one who is going to end up being tormented forever will not be giving this type of worship.

Thanks, Kat.

 

[timlamb]

It does not matter what part of the bible you use or do not use the meaning is clear. Man is a creature. Creature is not used when talking about man only, because it would be vauge and missleading.

Bottom line if you believe God created man then you also believe man is a creature. It doesn't take much to see that since man is a creature that every creature would include all men. Of course it also includes dogs and cats and fish and birds and so on.

To say that all creatures does not refer to man is utter nonsense.

God told noah, put two of every creature on the ark, but noah took his family, oops.
Revelation speaks of creatures in heaven, and obviously are not man.
We must look at context, or it becomes utter nonsense.

 

[timlamb]

Thanks, Kat.

I believe every knee will bow at the awesomeness of God, and confess that Christ is lord; but not all will do it in worship!

 

[timlamb]

You must be thinking of Unitarian Universalists, we Christian Universalists certainly are not open to all opinions.

Thank you for the clairification. I have only read a little about universalism, we never stop learning.

 

[Jipsah]

That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

I assume that's when you begin the program of eternal torture on the wayward child, cooking them with a blowtorch forever to demonstrate your love.

That is, of course, if you're an inhuman monster. Otherwise you wouldn't even consider anything so barbarous.

But we're supposed to believe that what we'd consider the vilest sort of sadism and cruelty in a human being would be "good" if God did it.

I ain't buying it. It's it's bad for humans to be pitiless and compassionless and merciless and cruel, then it woould be bad for God to be pitiless and compassionless and merciless and cruel.

I ain't buying it. The God Who "became flesh and dwelt among us" is the God Whose "mercy endures forever and ever". He is not the God Whose torments endure forever and ever.

 

[katallasso]

Havahope, wonderful, a very strong statement of faith. I was just suprised you would consider this "heaven". If this was all there was, not many people would thank God for it.

I stand corrected, I was going from the concordance in my NIV, where creature is translated to creation. my NKJV does say creature there. If all creatures in heaven, on earth, under earth, and in the sea, including ALL man, praise God, that will be a wonderful day. However, once again, I must say, that by using the entire bible, I do not see that as being all humanity, praising and worshiping God; it would be contrary to what the rest of the scripture says about humanity, and the hatered for the God of the Christian bible that I see.

But it says all. The "rest of humanity" you are speaking of is before purification.

Just as this scripture means "all":

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, did all die spiritually in Adam? "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

 

[katallasso]

I believe every knee will bow at the awesomeness of God, and confess that Christ is lord; but not all will do it in worship!

Then they would not have used the word they used.

 

[KCDAD]

Unfortunately we are not taught this in school. We are taught to believe what we are told, and to fill in the blanks with the "right" answer. See Frank Smith's discussion on the R_bbit.
http://www.joshhunt.com/whynob.html

 

[katallasso]

I assume that's when you begin the program of eternal torture on the wayward child, cooking them with a blowtorch forever to demonstrate your love.

That is, of course, if you're an inhuman monster. Otherwise you wouldn't even consider anything so barbarous.

But we're supposed to believe that what we'd consider the vilest sort of sadism and cruelty in a human being would be "good" if God did it.

I ain't buying it. It's it's bad for humans to be pitiless and compassionless and merciless and cruel, then it woould be bad for God to be pitiless and compassionless and merciless and cruel.

I ain't buying it. The God Who "became flesh and dwelt among us" is the God Whose "mercy endures forever and ever". He is not the God Whose torments endure forever and ever.

Hard to swallow, eh?

 

[katallasso]

Thanks, Kat.

You're mighty welcome!

 

[katallasso]

Thanks, Kat.

You're mighty welcome!

 

[Soul Searcher]

God told noah, put two of every creature on the ark, but noah took his family, oops.
Revelation speaks of creatures in heaven, and obviously are not man.
We must look at context, or it becomes utter nonsense.

You have distorted the context. It does not just say creatures in heaven but also those on the earth and under the earth and in the sea. All creatures here refers to every creature including man.

In your example of Noah you are off the mark a bit.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

be-hay-maw'
From an unused root (probably meaning to be mute); properly a dumb beast; especially any large quadruped or animal (often collectively): - beast, cattle.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

There are several verses in the writings of Paul [kjv] where the word creature is used to refer to man. Perhaps you should take a look.

 

[red77]

Red77, you are not reading my example for truth. All things of God are offered to all people, some hear the voice of their shepard, some are the children of God. many will reject Him, and disbelief is rejection. Atheism is a choice. All, at the time of judgement, will know they were given a choice.
Souls go to hell by their choice, not Gods!
That is what I said.

arent we all supposed to be the children of God....? Yet again you seem incapable of viewing anything other than in black and white, life is just not that simple, many people i know find it hard to reconcile there being a God with the amount of suffering there is in the world now let alone there being a despicable hell in the afterlife......and this the judgement is it? people being told they were given a choice......and thats it, strike one you're out, game over........i dont believe in a God who could be that cruel. we're not robots, we're fragile beings who arent perfect and make mistakes, hopefully we learn from them and mature as people but if its left to us to be in control of our own eternal fates then its horrendously unfair, God must know that people are going to make some wrong choices in this life and the punishment for not making the right choice in a few meagre years in this life means an eternity of torment....? Why on earth did God create man in the first place if we're so despicable to begin with, there'd be no need for hell at all then would there? But yet it seems that going by your message the all knowing/divine/merciful creator couldnt come up a divine plan that doesnt cause untold suffering for millions of his creations........why is it that that doesnt make any sense to me....? And why is it that i can envisage a more merciful forgiving God than the one u describe? I'm sure i'll just come against a brick wall with this argument but what the hey.....
Oh, and people arent going to 'send' themselves to hell either, it has to exist in the first place and folk arent just gonna go there of their own free choice.......

 

[timlamb]

arent we all supposed to be the children of God....? Yet again you seem incapable of viewing anything other than in black and white, life is just not that simple, many people i know find it hard to reconcile there being a God with the amount of suffering there is in the world now let alone there being a despicable hell in the afterlife......and this the judgement is it? people being told they were given a choice......and thats it, strike one you're out, game over........i dont believe in a God who could be that cruel. we're not robots, we're fragile beings who arent perfect and make mistakes, hopefully we learn from them and mature as people but if its left to us to be in control of our own eternal fates then its horrendously unfair, God must know that people are going to make some wrong choices in this life and the punishment for not making the right choice in a few meagre years in this life means an eternity of torment....? Why on earth did God create man in the first place if we're so despicable to begin with, there'd be no need for hell at all then would there? But yet it seems that going by your message the all knowing/divine/merciful creator couldnt come up a divine plan that doesnt cause untold suffering for millions of his creations........why is it that that doesnt make any sense to me....? And why is it that i can envisage a more merciful forgiving God than the one u describe? I'm sure i'll just come against a brick wall with this argument but what the hey.....
Oh, and people arent going to 'send' themselves to hell either, it has to exist in the first place and folk arent just gonna go there of their own free choice.......

God knows we are going to make mistakes, that is why Jesus died for you. We don't go to hell for one strike, its about faith. In baseball analigy, Jesus hit the homerun, you just have to run the bases.
You say I only see things as black and white, you only want to read about a loving God, what about a righteous God.
To them that believe, he gives the ability to become the children of God. Even with belief, we only have the ability, we still must accept forgiveness through faith in Jesus.
I don't know the mind of God, I know the scriptures are true. I believed them first through faith, then through the direction of the Holy Spirit.
Why did God creat evil people? I don't know. Evil is the misuse of the goodness of God.
If you refuse to believe the bible, it is sad, but we have nothing further to discuss. If you want to understand more I would love to pray with you and try to help.
I am praying for you now. I can tell you are seeking, and the answer is in God's word.
God Bless,
timlamb

 

[red77]

God knows we are going to make mistakes, that is why Jesus died for you. We don't go to hell for one strike, its about faith. In baseball analigy, Jesus hit the homerun, you just have to run the bases.
You say I only see things as black and white, you only want to read about a loving God, what about a righteous God.
To them that believe, he gives the ability to become the children of God. Even with belief, we only have the ability, we still must accept forgiveness through faith in Jesus.
I don't know the mind of God, I know the scriptures are true. I believed them first through faith, then through the direction of the Holy Spirit.
Why did God creat evil people? I don't know. Evil is the misuse of the goodness of God.
If you refuse to believe the bible, it is sad, but we have nothing further to discuss. If you want to understand more I would love to pray with you and try to help.
I am praying for you now. I can tell you are seeking, and the answer is in God's word.
God Bless,
timlamb

I knew that this would be the type of reply i would get back, who are u to tell me that i refuse to believe the Bible...?! Because i dont correspond with your own interpretation of scripture? the above is both patronising and offensive, you refuse to acknowledge half of the points I've raised or have put your own slant on them at best, I never asked why God created evil people, i stated it doesnt make sense to create a race of beings that according to fundamentalist doctrine are vile creatures worthy of torture, to me a loving/righteous God goes hand in hand....thats why i cannot believe in the fundamentalist view of hell!! As far as the baseball thing goes we're only allowed one shot according to your doctrine: this life here and now....< and an eternity depends on it.......finally does it not say that love covers over a multitude of sins....? If your doctrine focussed more on the love and compassion of the christian message Christianity may actually win a few more converts, as it is if there's ridicule and contempt as some fundamentalists claim then i for one am not surprised......fundamentalism for the most part just seems incapable of rational thought and empathy for other people...........its yet another form of extremism at its worst and the whole fixation on 'hell' bears witness to that.........