Hell is not permanent.

[Children of Light]

Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

By : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud.

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ([SIZE=+1]הנס = חנס[/SIZE] ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

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No where in this quote does it say that anyone will suffer eternal torment. Point it out to me.

 

[Children of Light]

"the Kingdom is here and now"
Havahope, if this is your heaven, you don't have much to hope for, this is sad, sad, sad.

Yeah your right, I cant wait to be in heaven and have my child's existance in hell be permantly erased from my memory banks, meanwhile he'll be there in hell realizing that I have completely had his memory erased, just great I'll be part of my sons eternal torment. I cant wait! Oh joy!

 

[Children of Light]

Here's an idea, give your child a loving home with his own key and all the food he needs and a promise of love forever, and watch that child spit on you and curse your home and your love and your food, and go off into a life of prostitution and drugs. You drag him out and he curses you more, you beg and plead, but he says "I have no father" and walks away.
Finally, heart broken, you have to say, "he was never my child", and you add on rooms to the house and make room for all those who are and want to be your children, who want your love, and your gifts.
That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

Here's an idea, if you know that child will be going to hell even before they are born, then why allow them to be born in the first place?

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]No where in this quote does it say that anyone will suffer eternal torment. Point it out to me.[/size]

See highlights.

Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6).

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" [Note, When does this end??] ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell" [Note, When does this end??] (B. M. 83b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" [Note, When does this end??] ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for "God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners [Note, When does this end??] (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ([SIZE=+1]הנס = חנס[/SIZE] ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

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Here is another article showing the ancient Jewish teaching on an eternal hell and eternal punishment. This is only a partial quote, the complete article is 21 pages long.

Jewish Eschatology - Eschatology
By : Kaufmann Kohler
The Day of the Lord.

But it was chiefly the Prophets who dwelt with great emphasis upon the Day of the Lord as the future Day of Judgment. Originally spoken of as the day when Yhwh as the God of heaven visits the earth with all His terrible powers of devastation (comp. Gen. xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23, xi. 4, xii. 12; Josh. x. 11), the term was employed by the Prophets in an eschatological sense and invested with a double character: on the one hand, as the time of the manifestation of God's punitive powers of justice directed against all that provokes His wrath, and, on the other hand, as the time of the vindication and salvation of the righteous. … For Isaiah, likewise, the Day of the Lord brings terror and ruin to Judah and Israel (Isa. ii. 12, x. 3, xxii. 5; comp. Micah i. 3) as well as to other nations (Isa. xiv. 25, xxiv.-xxv.).
…

the Day of Judgment; hence in Dan. xii. 2 the resurrection is extended to both the wicked and the righteous: the latter "shall awake to everlasting life," the former "to shame and everlasting horror" (A. V. "contempt")[/i].

It can not be denied, however, that these Hasidean or apocalyptic writers took a sublime view of the entire history of the world in dividing it into great world epochs counted either after empires or millenniums, and in seeing its consummation in the establishment of "the kingdom of the Lord," called also, in order to avoid the use of the Sacred Name, ("the kingdom of heaven").

As may be learned from Tobit xiii. 11 et seq., xiv. 6, quoted by Schürer (l.c. ii. 507), and from the ancient New-Year's liturgy (see also 'Alenu), "the conversion of all creatures to become one single band to do, God's will" is the foremost object of Israel's Messianic hope; only the removal of "the kingdom of violence" must precede the establishment of God's kingdom. This hope for the coming of the kingdom of God is expressed also in the Kaddish (comp. Lord’s Prayer) and in the eleventh benediction of the "Shemoneh 'Esreh," …

Travail of the Messianic Time.

The idea that the great redemption shall be preceded by great distress, darkness, and moral decline seems to be based on such prophetic passages as Hosea xiii. 13 et seq.; Joel ii. 10 et seq.; Micah vii. 1-6; Zech. xiv. 6 et seq.; Dan. xii. 1. The view itself, however, is not that of the Prophets, whose outlook is altogether optimistic and eudemonistic (Isa. xi. 1-9, lxv. 17-25), but more in accordance with the older non-Jewish belief in a constant decline of the world, from the golden and silver to the brass and iron age, until it ends in a final cataclysm or conflagration,

The Days of the Messiah.

The central place in the eschatological system is, as a matter of course, occupied by the advent of the messiah. Nevertheless the days of the Messiah ("yemot ha-Mashiah"), the time when the prophetic predictions regarding the reign of the descendant of David find their fulfilment, do not form the end of the world's history, but are merely the necessary preparatory stage to the kingdom of God ("malkut shamayim"), which, when once established, will last forever (Dan. vii. 27; Sibyllines, iii. 47 et seq., 767 et seq.; Mek., Beshallah, 'Amalekh, end). The Messiah is merely "the chosen one" (Enoch, xlv. 3, xlix. 2, li. 3 et seq.); he causes the people to seek the Lord (Hosea iii. 5; Isa. xi. 9; Zech. xii. 8; Ezek. xxxiv. 24, xxxvii. 24 et seq.), and, as "the Son of God," causes the nations to worship Him (Enoch, cv. 2; II Esd. viii. 28 et seq., xiii. 32-52, xiv. 9, after Ps. ii. 7, lxxxix. 27 et seq.).

It is probably to emphasize his human character that the Messiah is frequently called the "Son of Man" (Dan. viii. 13; Enoch, xlvi. 2 et seq., xlviii. 2, lxii. 7; (See Man, Son of). For it is in order to fulfil the designs of God for Israel and the whole race of man that he is to appear as the triumphant warrior-king to subjugate the nations (Sibyllines, iii. 653-655), to lead in the war against Gog and Magog (II Esd. xiii. 32; Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiv. 17, 20), to annihilate all the powers of wickedness and idolatry, cleanse the Holy Land and city from all heathen elements, build the new house of the Lord "pure and holy," and become the Redeemer of Israel (Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxxix. 7 et seq., lxxii. 2; Cant. xvii. 21-30; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 11, Ex. xl. 9, Num. xi. 16, Isa. x. 27; comp. Philo, "De Præmiis et Pœnis," with reference to Num. xxiv. 7):

The Last Judgment precedes the Resurrection. Judged by the Messiah, the nations with their guardian angels and stars shall be cast into Gehenna. According to Rabbi Eleazar of Modi'im, in answer to the protests of the princes of the seventy-two nations, God will say, "Let each nation go through the fire together with its guardian deity," when Israel alone will be saved (Cant. R. ii. 1). …The end of the judgment of the heathen is the establishment of the kingdom of God (Mek., Beshallah, 'Amalekh). The Messiah will cast Satan into Gehenna, and death and sorrow flee forever (Pesih. R. 36; see also Antichrist; Armilus; Belial).
Death will befall the Messiah after his four hundred years' reign, and all mankind and the world will lapse into primeval silence for seven days, after which the renewed earth will give forth its dead and God will judge the world and assign the evil-doers to the pit of hell and the righteous to paradise, which is on the opposite side (II Esd. vii. 26-36). All evildoers meet with everlasting punishment.

The Last Judgment.

On "the day of the Great Judgment" angels and men alike will be judged, and the books opened in which the deeds of men are recorded (lxxxi. 4, lxxxix. 70 et seq., xc. 20, ciii. 3 et seq., civ. 1, cviii. 3) for life or for death; …"All the secret thoughts of men will then be brought to light." "Not long-suffering and mercy, but rigid justice, will prevail in this Last Judgment"; Gehenna and Paradise will appear opposite each other for the one or the other to enter (II Esd. vii. 33 et seq.).

This end will come "through no one but God alone" (ib. vi. 6). "No longer will time be granted for repentance, or for prayer and intercession by saints and prophets, but the Only One will give decision according to His One Law, whether for life or for everlasting destruction"

Gehenna.

Gehinnom has a double purpose, annihilation (Enoch, xciv. 1 et seq.) and eternal pain (II Esd. vii. 36 et seq.). Gehinnom has seven names: "Sheol," "Abbadon," "Pit of Corruption," "Horrible Pit," "Mire of Clay," "Shadow of Death," and "Nether Parts of the Earth" (Jonah ii. 3; Ps. lxxxviii. 12 [A.V. 11], xvi. 10, xl. 3 [A.V. 2], cvii. 14; Ezek. xxvi. 20). It is also called "Tophet" (Isa. xxx. 33).

The punishment of the wicked endures twelve months, according to R. Akiba; the generation of the Flood will in time be released (Gen. R. xxviii.), but the punishment of those who have led others into heresy or dealt treacherously against the Law will never cease(Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 5).

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[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Here's an idea, if you know that child will be going to hell even before they are born, then why allow them to be born in the first place[/SIZE]?

[SIZE=-1]Yeah your right, I cant wait to be in heaven and have my child's existance in hell be permantly erased from my memory banks, meanwhile he'll be there in hell realizing that I have completely had his memory erased, just great I'll be part of my sons eternal torment. I cant wait! Oh joy![/SIZE]

It would appear that universalism is not primarily about Biblical doctrine, but the fall back position is always about self; me, me, me, I, I, I, "What I think..." "What I feel..." What I can't believe..." What I can't accept..." "My concept of God..."

Once a small child asked his parents if his pet dog, would be in heaven with him. The parents not knowing how to answer said ask the pastor on Sunday. So the following Sunday, after worship service the child asked the pastor. The pastor replied, "Son, if God thinks you will need your dog, to be happy in heaven, he will make sure he is there."

 

[red77]

It would appear that universalism is not primarily about Biblical doctrine, but the fall back position is always about self; me, me, me, I, I, I, "What I think..." "What I feel..." What I can't believe..." What I can't accept..." "My concept of God..."

Once a small child asked his parents if his pet dog, would be in heaven with him. The parents not knowing how to answer said ask the pastor on Sunday. So the following Sunday, after worship service the child asked the pastor. The pastor replied, "Son, if God thinks you will need your dog, to be happy in heaven, he will make sure he is there."

Universalism is concerned with the concept of every single living being who has lived/is living/is yet to live being brought into union with God, or at least its my interpretation of it, i dont see it as being about 'me' at all, it makes the most sense and if having moral views and standpoints that go against the teachings of eternal hell is somehow selfish then i'm just bemused............

 

[Children of Light]

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Show me one child who thinks anyone should burn in hell for all eternity, you cant because children dont believe in this.
=======================================

Only adults do

 

[Children of Light]

It would appear that universalism is not primarily about Biblical doctrine, but the fall back position is always about self; me, me, me, I, I, I, "What I think..." "What I feel..." What I can't believe..." What I can't accept..." "My concept of God..."

Once a small child asked his parents if his pet dog, would be in heaven with him. The parents not knowing how to answer said ask the pastor on Sunday. So the following Sunday, after worship service the child asked the pastor. The pastor replied, "Son, if God thinks you will need your dog, to be happy in heaven, he will make sure he is there."

This is the level of compassion I receive? I just told you my son may be in hell, and this is the level of compassion you have in you towards me? Your right its all about me, I'm hurting here, but you cant see that can you, or dont you care?
If this is the face of Christianity, then count me out.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1][19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Show me one child who thinks anyone should burn in hell for all eternity, you cant because children dont believe in this.
=======================================

Only adults do [/SIZE]

Now all you have to do is put that verse in context with the other 27 passages I posted.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

For universalism to be true, Jesus must be a liar, or sometime in the future the words, “ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.,” must change to, “in all cases you shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”

When do these words change?

Can sinners, the wicked, the disobedient, etc., be more righteous, than the Pharisees, and enter the kingdom? See, Ps 14:2-3; Isa 53:6; Rom 3:10.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] [/b]and few there be that find it.[/b]

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works,” but they only “say,” they have. Makes me think of some TV “evangelists,” getting rich “in the name of Jesus.”

Jesus said, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Either Jesus is a liar or the teaching of universalism, is false, which claims “everyone” will enter the kingdom.

In the following, vs. 23, of this passage, Jesus said, “I never knew you.” Jesus did not say, “I will know you some day..” 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word, Jesus’ words, will still say “I never knew you.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.​

For universalism to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar here, or this verse, must change to say, “I will not deny you before my father.” When do the words change?

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” These are the words of Jesus, but Universalists cannot accept/believe in a God, or Jesus, who will punish or torment the wicked in fire.

Where does Jesus say they will come out of the fire? What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents anyone being “converted,” ever, at any time, after death?

Is there any scripture which states that the wicked, who are severed from the just, will be rescued from the fire and reunited with the just?

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.
[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.[/indent]
Jesus said that few are chosen for the Kingdom of heaven. Universalism claims that everyone will enter the kingdom. Is Jesus a liar?

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.” If universalism is true, then at some point Jesus must lift the curse and call them blessed. When does that occur?

Or 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the αιωνιον/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the αιωνιον/aiónion life. The same word.

Does αιωνιον/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [[size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”

 

[Der Alte]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death. Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, usually not clearly understood, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When do the words change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

 

[KCDAD]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
​

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
​

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.
​

[

Since you didn't pick three I'll explain the first three you presented here.
If thy hand offendeth... this is the famous "hellfire" translation for Gehenna. Gehenna, as you correctly point out is a real place south of Jerusalem... is what Jesus means? Of course not. It is an idiom for separation from society and God. Despair, lonliness and misery. If you actually believed this was talking about a firey pit of torment wouldn't you be chopping and plucking as we sit here?

Your second example doesn't use hell or heaven in it at all. Enter the straight gate and be saved is mentioned... and you infer heaven and hell from this? Why is that?
Weeping and gnashing of teeth... we will have those in hell?

The third example is obviously a parable. Lazarus was a common "fall guy" in middle eastern stories. Much like Charlie Chaplin's famous character. In this story he is a poor beggar who is treated poorly by the rich man. The rich man is Israel and Lazarus is a Gentile. (Remember the story of the woman from Canaan who tells Jesus that even the dogs gets the scraps that fall from the masters table? It is about Jews and Gentiles.... not heaven and hell.

So there you go.

 

[Havahope]

Since you didn't pick three I'll explain the first three you presented here.
If thy hand offendeth... this is the famous "hellfire" translation for Gehenna. Gehenna, as you correctly point out is a real place south of Jerusalem... is what Jesus means? Of course not. It is an idiom for separation from society and God. Despair, lonliness and misery. If you actually believed this was talking about a firey pit of torment wouldn't you be chopping and plucking as we sit here?

Your second example doesn't use hell or heaven in it at all. Enter the straight gate and be saved is mentioned... and you infer heaven and hell from this? Why is that?
Weeping and gnashing of teeth... we will have those in hell?

The third example is obviously a parable. Lazarus was a common "fall guy" in middle eastern stories. Much like Charlie Chaplin's famous character. In this story he is a poor beggar who is treated poorly by the rich man. The rich man is Israel and Lazarus is a Gentile. (Remember the story of the woman from Canaan who tells Jesus that even the dogs gets the scraps that fall from the masters table? It is about Jews and Gentiles.... not heaven and hell.

So there you go.

Der Alter, there is wisdom in the above quote of KC's.
Is your heart so hard that you would rather have it the other way?
Could you find it in your own heart, if you had the power to do so, to put anyone to endless torture? I couldn't. And I know that this tenderness in my heart was learned from God. And could my mercy exceed God's mercy? I don't think so!

Luke 2:1. "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
5. To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8. And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14. Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

How sad it is that this glorious, God sent message of glad tidings to ALL people has now been cast aside by so many who claim to be Christians, and has been replaced with the fire and brimstone message of gloom and doom.

 

[timlamb]

This is the level of compassion I receive? I just told you my son may be in hell, and this is the level of compassion you have in you towards me? Your right its all about me, I'm hurting here, but you cant see that can you, or dont you care?
If this is the face of Christianity, then count me out.

I have been in this thread since to first page and have seen peole try to be understanding with you, you don't want understanding, you want to be told your son is in heaven. I haven't heard anyone here say he wasn't, you keep saying he's in hell. Why do you condemn him, let God judge him and get on with life. no matter who is right here, you can't change it now.
As for Christianity, judge Christ by his words not ours.
This topic has gotten rather heated at times and all of us are guilty of being unChrist-like, my appologies.
timlamb

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter, there is wisdom in the above quote of KC's.

Is your heart so hard that you would rather have it the other way?

Could you find it in your own heart, if you had the power to do so, to put anyone to endless torture? I couldn't. And I know that this tenderness in my heart was learned from God. And could my mercy exceed God's mercy? I don't think so!
[/SIZE]

Luke 2:1. ......

How sad it is that this glorious, God sent message of glad tidings to people has now been cast aside by so many who claim to be Christians, and has been replaced with the fire and brimstone message of gloom and doom.[/SIZE][/FONT]

There is wisdom in KCDAD's post? See my reponse to it below.

It is not about me! It is not about what I think, what I feel, what I want, or anything else about me. See the 28 passages spoken by Jesus I posted.

"I couldn't. And I know that this tenderness in my heart was learned from God. And could my mercy exceed God's mercy? I don't think so!" Do you see any scripture there? I don't. Just like all the other universalists, it is all about you.

 

[timlamb]

Katallasso, KCDAD, havahope, children of light, Red77, soul searcher, and you, Der Alter; let me be the first to admit, I don't know all the answers. I don't know why God allows evil, or why he created any of us. Who can really know the mind of God. I bowed out of this once before because it got to heated and futile, every one screaming and nobody listening. I have said my peace, and heard you out, it is time to move on.
I know that Christ died for me, and I have faith in His promisses, and I am counting on eternal life with Him. I hope your faith yeilds you the same.
timlamb

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Since you didn't pick three I'll explain the first three you presented here.
If thy hand offendeth... this is the famous "hellfire" translation for Gehenna. Gehenna, as you correctly point out is a real place south of Jerusalem... is what Jesus means? Of course not. It is an idiom for separation from society and God. Despair, lonliness and misery. If you actually believed this was talking about a firey pit of torment wouldn't you be chopping and plucking as we sit here?[/SIZE]

It is not about what I "believe" and might or might not do if I thought as you do etc., etc., etc.

This ignores everything I posted. Ignores my questions about the text. Ignores the Jewish belief about Gehenna, that I documented several times and merely reiterates for the umpteenth time without any evidence, documentation, or support, the universalist assumptions and presuppositions.

And this ignores the total context of all the passages.

I can prove from scripture that there is no God, Psalm 14 and 53, both state in a complete sentence, "There is no God." But if we read the context, it says, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

A text without a context is a pretext.

[SIZE=-1]Your second example doesn't use hell or heaven in it at all. Enter the straight gate and be saved is mentioned... and you infer heaven and hell from this? Why is that?
Weeping and gnashing of teeth... we will have those in hell?[/SIZE]

Ignored my comments, on the passage and ignores the total context of all the passages.

[SIZE=-1]The third example is obviously a parable. Lazarus was a common "fall guy" in middle eastern stories. [...] In this story he is a poor beggar who is treated poorly by the rich man. The rich man is Israel and Lazarus is a Gentile. (Remember the story of the woman from Canaan who tells Jesus that even the dogs gets the scraps that fall from the masters table?[/size] [Irrelevant diversion] [size=-1]It is about Jews and Gentiles.... not heaven and hell.

So there you go.[/SIZE]

Ignores my comments showing it is not a parable. Where does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible explain this "parable?" All legitimate parables use common, everyday, things and situations to clarify a, usually unclear, spiritual truth. Everybody knew about losing and finding sheep and coins, sowing seeds, etc.

Nobody in Jesus' audience knew anything about what happens after death.

So what was the teaching of the story? The only common events, they could understand, were Lazarus begging and a rich man living high.

You make several unsupported assertions about Lazarus. Why would someone who supposedly represents gentiles have a Jewish name, "Whom God helps"?

Where is any evidence that, "Lazarus was a common 'fall guy' in middle eastern stories.?" This is a made up answer to explain away universalist assumptions and presuppositions.

Was Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, also a parable, a "fall guy?"

If it is about Jews and gentiles, what about them, what is the truth to be learned from this story? And where else in scripture can we find anything at all about this supposed reference to Jews and gentiles? What is it that Jews will never have, attain, be given, etc?

Was Abraham also a parabolic figure? Jesus never once uses language which would indicate he was not actually, literally, talking about Abraham. There is no, "Is like unto..." "In the manner of...," etc.

If Abraham did not actually, literally, speak the words Jesus quotes him saying, then Jesus is lying. All the legitimate parables refer to nonspecific people, "A certain man", "A certain king..." etc. At some time in the history of the world someone, somewhere, did and said those things. Only this story uses a real, historical, person.

I do not recall ever being told someone actually lost a child. If my answers were perceived as callous and indifferent it is because, as I recall, it was always phrased, "What if you had a child...?" I do not believe, nor does scripture teach, that infants and children go to hell.

KJV Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

WEB Rom 4:15 For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience.

5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law.​

 

[KCDAD]

It is not about what I "believe" and might or might not do if I thought as you do etc., etc., etc.

This ignores everything I posted. Ignores my questions about the text. Ignores the Jewish belief about Gehenna, that I documented...

Notice a contrtadiction here? Apparently it is about all about you.

 

[Jipsah]

what about a righteous God.

A righteous God doesn't inflict infinite punishment for finite crimes. The God who limited vengeance to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" doesn't toss aside all the limits when punishing people for not having known of Him. If it's unrighteous for us, it's unrighteous for Him, else the very word "righteousness" is meaningless.

If you refuse to believe the bible, it is sad

Even if you've never heard of it. But ignorance is no excuse, and if you never heard of our Lord then you just have to be tortured for all eternity to satisfy God's "righteousness".
Right.

 

[timlamb]

Jipsah, hi, no I don't believe God punishes ingorance. I belive a knowledge of God is intinsic, God knows your heart. The thief on the cross said "remember me to your father" and Jesus forgave his sin, He knew his heart. Most people of the world believe in a "god" of sorts. It is disobediance to the truth you know, and we know more than we admit, that causes separation from God. I know how to ask for forgiveness, I have to follow that knowledge.
No one will stand before God, convicted and condemned and not know why.
That is what I believe.
timlamb

From the Gospel of John chapter 12; "... The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep itfor eternal life. Who ever serves me must follow me; and where I am my servant will also be. My father will honor the one who serves me. ...Put you trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of the light.
"when a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come to the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him for the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the father who sent me commanded me. I know that His command leads to eternal life. So what ever I say is just what the father has told me to say..."
Chapter 14 beginning at verse 21; Whoever has my commands and obeys them, is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
"... If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

I know you are going to point out that I left out the verse 32 in chapter 12, that says "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
The all, means not just the Jews, but men of all nations.
We are told to love this life less (hate) than the live eternal we anticipate.
He speaks of serving, following, honor, and trust, to become children of the light (His children).
He brings us into the light(knowledge) by his words, and we will be judged "on the last day" in accorance to those words.
The father commanded those words, and His commands lead to eternal life.
If you love Him, you will obey His commands, and the father will then love you, and make his home with you.
I am not going to deal with the issue of those who have never heard the gospel, I trust God to deal with them fairly.
There is a wrath that comes with justice, and I will not defend it or make excuses for it. Those who know what Jesus said, know the way to salvation, and we know the conciquences. Do what you will, I choose to follow the Lord, spread the gospel, and to try to encourage others to do the same. Nothing in this arguement has brought us one step closer to God, and that should be our goal, drawing closer to God.
Look up righteous in the dictionary. Righteousness is truth beyond loyalties, love, or any emotion; it is just, holding to the standards, no exceptions, perfect and pure and accepting no less. We are perfect and pure only through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus, those who do not accept Him by faith, will be judged, righteously; on the last day.
timlamb

 

[red77]

Jipsah, hi, no I don't believe God punishes ingorance. I belive a knowledge of God is intinsic, God knows your heart. The thief on the cross said "remember me to your father" and Jesus forgave his sin, He knew his heart. Most people of the world believe in a "god" of sorts. It is disobediance to the truth you know, and we know more than we admit, that causes separation from God. I know how to ask for forgiveness, I have to follow that knowledge.
No one will stand before God, convicted and condemned and not know why.
That is what I believe.
timlamb

Fair enough, but is it only if u ask for forgiveness that u are given it? Human beings forgive each other without always needing to be asked for it, yet God wouldnt...? I'm sorry but i dont subscribe to that, and if the only chance to get forgiveness is in this life then its a very harsh doctrine, I'm sure that once people have died and are then aware that God exists a lot, if not all, would want to be forgiven, a lot of people dont know if God exists or not, even people who believe do so by faith as none of us have seen God on this plane of existence, therefore i do not believe that people are going to be convicted and condemned for at the end of the day being human beings.......