Hell is not permanent.

[Children of Light]

Other than scripture, can someone explain to me from their heart or mind how they could enter heaven if they know their child is eternally being tormented?
I mean I am not being faceitous here.
I just honestly want to know.
I am tired of these answers that are wrapped in scripture.(When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees why Jesus would allow his disciples to work on the Sabbath..Jesus responded to them, if one of your animals falls in the ditch on the Sabbath will you not get the animal out? I think all of us here know if our hearts that this is true..is it scriptural? I think Jesus would want us to use logic when it comes to hell as well and not be so legalistic)
Just give me a human to human response.
Because I dont think I could ever get over that hump, not in all eternity, knowing what I know about hell.

 

[Children of Light]

And just as an aside, how could you be leading other non Christians astray by asking such questions?
I feel non Christians would definitely be lead astray if they see that Christians are not vehemently debating this point.
I think all would agree that certain passages of the bible may be interpreted that all may end up in heaven just as well as the bible may be interpreted that some will end up in hell for all eternity. So to say that one side is leading others astray is in very poor taste.
I know my mind and heart on this issue and it isnt to do God an injustice. God knows that I love Him very much, He also knows how much I love my family, and other people in the world. I know God is a very forgiving God. I think this character trait is His trump trait over His justice.

 

[hybrid]

Other than scripture, can someone explain to me from their heart or mind how they could enter heaven if they know their child is eternally being tormented?
I mean I am not being faceitous here.
I just honestly want to know.
I am tired of these answers that are wrapped in scripture.(When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees why Jesus would allow his disciples to work on the Sabbath..Jesus responded to them, if one of your animals falls in the ditch on the Sabbath will you not get the animal out? I think all of us here know if our hearts that this is true..is it scriptural? I think Jesus would want us to use logic when it comes to hell as well and not be so legalistic)
Just give me a human to human response.
Because I dont think I could ever get over that hump, not in all eternity, knowing what I know about hell.

Matt 22:29-32
29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

along the same lines, scriptures stated...

Rev 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." NIV

Isa 65:17
17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. NASU

Prov 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
NIV

.

 

[hybrid]

hi CoL,

Other than scripture,

I think we cannot simply disregard scriptures because we don’t feel comfortable with some of its contents. otherwise, let's just believe what ever we wanted to believe.

can someone explain to me from their heart or mind how they could enter heaven if they know their child is eternally being tormented?

Matt 19:14
14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Heb 5:13
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Because I dont think I could ever get over that hump, not in all eternity, knowing what I know about hell.

I don’t think there will be children in hell.


.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes but Abraham knew that God could bring Isaac back from the dead, hell is for all eternity, death by sacrifice isnt death for all eternity.

Jewish Encyclopedia-RESURRECTION

Like all ancient peoples, the early Hebrews believed that the dead go down into the underworld and live there a colorless existence (comp. Isa. xiv. 15-19; Ezek. xxxii. 21-30). Only an occasional person, and he an especially fortunate one, like Enoch or Elijah, could escape from Sheol, and these were taken to heaven to the abode of Yhwh, where they became angels (comp. Slavonic Enoch, xxii.). In the Book of Job first the longing for a resurrection is expressed (xiv. 13-15), and then, if the Masoretic text may be trusted, a passing conviction that such a resurrection will occur (xix. 25, 26). The older Hebrew conception of life regarded the nation so entirely as a unit that no individual mortality or immortality was considered. Jeremiah (xxxi. 29) and Ezekiel (xviii.) had contended that the individual was the moral unit, and Job's hopes are based on this idea.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=233&letter=R​

 

[Der Alte]

[...]

[SIZE=-1]I don’t think there will be children in hell.[/SIZE]

I think you're right.

Rom 4:15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.​

 

[katallasso]

I have taken what I believe to be the best parts of several articles on what the word hell really means to write this thread. I hope you find it interesting.

I think it interesting that Jesus never used a Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic word that in any way resembles what most people believe to be hell. The Hebrew word "Sheol" translated to Greek as "Hades" is 31 times translated "hell", 31 times translated "grave" , 3 times "pit" in the King James.

"Hades" comes from the Greek verb "horao" which means "I am seeing". The Greeks prefixed the word with "a" [alpha] which negates "to see" thus we have "Hades" meaning the "unseen". So "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen". This in no way describes the English word "hell" or what translators mean by using it. Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary definition is: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
It's obvious the King James translators didn't completely understand what "Sheol" or "Hades" meant or didn't want us to. Notice the next few scriptures.

"Out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I." (Jonah 2:2) Verse 1:17 tells us he was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." Where was Jonah-in Hell or in a fish? If "Sheol" is translated "unseen" we have no problem. Jonah was in the "belly of the fish" and was "unseen." We know that Jonah was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17) This agrees with the words of Jesus, for He said, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish." (Matt. 12:40) In the Greek Septuagint, (the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek around 200 B.C.) we find the Greek adjective aionio</I>s translated "forever" in Jonah 2:6 in the King James Bible. It is obvious that aionios "forever" cannot mean more than three days and three nights. There is a problem here."

In 1 Cor. 15:55, the King James' Greek text contains the Greek word "Hades." They translated the Greek word "Hades" into the English word "grave," but they gave an alternative translation "Hell" in the margin. In Rev. 20:13,14, The Greek Text contains the word "Hades" which they translated into the English word "Hell." In the margin they put the alternative translation of "grave." It should begin to appear to the objective reader of the King James Bible that the translators were uncertain as to the meaning of the words "Hades" and "Sheol." The modern reader of a King James Bible printed in this century will not know this because many of the modern editions of the KJV have removed the marginal readings the original King James contained."

"Hades" occurs 11 times in the King's Greek Text (often misnamed "Textus Receptus"). When we study "Hades," let us remember that according to the KJV, Jesus was in "Hell." (see Acts 2:27, 31) Obviously Jesus' soul was not in "hell-fire."

Another Greek word "Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the New Testament; 11 times in the Gospels and one time in the Epistle of James. Jesus used "Gehenna" about 7 times.

Gehenna is mentioned in Jer. 32:33-35 and tells of children being passed through the fire. In chapter 7 Jeremiah said the valley would one day be called the "Valley of slaughter." This was fulfilled in 70 A.D. at the destruction of Jerusalem.

In Jesus' day it was a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning and sulphur [brimstone] was added to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped.

Jesus said in, Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell [Gehenna]? This was a great insult to a Jew, for it was very important to them that they leave this world with a good name. And here Jesus said they deserved Gehenna.

Obviously the Word of God is inerrant, but the translators are not. In my study of the bible I see no proof of eternal torment.

​

 

[katallasso]

What's a "wigrim"?

 

[gort]

Ekletos quotes:

I believe wigrims,and young were un-biased. As for Dr.Strong he himself had to stay in the bounds of his orthodox beliefs which made him biased.

Are you fluent with Greek? an expert?

Yes it is a matter of "Your" theology, because that's what youv'e been taught to believe, and not what "The Bible" say's.

Then please show me where there is an explicit verse stating there is an end to the LOF.

Every time you think the bible is "Inerrant" you bow down to the Catholic church. Do you know that?

No, I don't know that, as I'm unfamiliar with the Catholic church. I'm asuming of course you refer to the RCC, and not the universal church.

Am I also to assume you are saying the bible is errant?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

7to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

Immortality,Incorruptibility,without end,never ending.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

"age-enduring" is your translation here, yes?

AT Robertson translates otherwise.

Shouldn't the translators used "Aionios" for Immortality, since immortality means deathlessness?????
because according to theolgy thats what they term "Eternal Life".

I would'nt know. I'm not fluent in Greek and am not going to pretend that I am.


I have no problem changing my ideas of an eternal LOF. I've asked many universalists to show me where Scripture says there is an end to it.

Surely God would tell us plainly, if there was.

None have yet been able to do it.

 

[gort]

thanx for the conversation Elketos.

as I stated in another thread, you've lost all credibility.

 

[GQ Chris]

Yes, Hell is permanent, anyone who wants to say that it isn't is preaching some New Age heresy...

 

[kepp]

Below is the post by Phoebe Ann in response to my wondering if anyone will be tearful of their childs eternal torment fumes being whaiffed by them in heaven:

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Phoebe I see that you havent listed yourself as married, and by listing this scripture I know you definitely dont have children, no parent could possibly be this blase(blah-zay:meaning to be bored or unimpressed by things because one has experienced or seen them so often) about their childs eternal torment.

You assume a lot of things - probably not good. You assume that your feelings supercede what God has said and you assume that anyone who doesn't share that viewpoint is unfeeling and selfish. I understand that the subject is a very emotional one and some latitude may be in order while discussing it, but such responses as you gave above are very judgemental and un-Christian.

Speaking as a father of a 2 1/2 year old, the thought of my daughter ending up in hell horrifies me, but I know (because God tells me) that if I raise her correctly, she will not stray from Him:

"Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it." -Proverbs 22:6

I applaud Phoebe Ann for saying that she loves God more than her children. That is not an easy thing to do, as you know. But, from my estimation, thats the only way me or my child will get to heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I believe wigrims,and young were un-biased. As for Dr.Strong he himself had to stay in the bounds of his orthodox beliefs which made him biased.

Yes it is a matter of "Your" theology, because that's what youv'e been taught to believe, and not what "The Bible" say's.

Every time you think the bible is "Inerrant" you bow down to the Catholic church. Do you know that?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

7to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

Immortality,Incorruptibility,without end,never ending.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Tell me Where is "Everlasting" or "Eternal" or "Forever" even rendered??

Shouldn't the translators used "Aionios" for Immortality, since immortality means deathlessness?????
because according to theolgy thats what they term "Eternal Life".[/SIZE]

Many sources, some of which you have selectively quoted to favor "your" false theology, all which show that aionios, and all it cognates, has always has the inherent meaning, forever, unending, eternal, etc.

[c]Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey
by Tom Logan[/c]

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size]
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size]
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;[/size] aion, which is probably derived from aei, always, is distinguished from its Indo-European parallels (Lat. aevum and Eng. aye are cognate) in that it is thought of not so much from the point of view of an abstract period of time as from the point of view of the time in which one has lived. In Hom. aion is often parallel with psyche, soul, life (e.g. Il. 16, 453); in Hesiod (Frag. 161, 1) it denotes a life-span, and in Aeschylus (Sept. 742) a generation. Thence it can mean the time which one has already lived or will live, i.e. it can relate to past as to future. It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *​

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post continued. Please feel free to avail yourself of all the relevant evidence before you lecture others about their Theolgy and who they do or do not bow down to. OBTW more to follow.

NIDNTT Colin Brown

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. To say that they do not mean it in Greek, as Jukes and Farrar and S. Cox, and those they quote, is a denial of the statements of the very best authorities we can have on the subject. If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; *** 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.—Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.—D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17;

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/aionios_an_in_depth_study.htm

[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;[/size]
• Strong's - Greek 165

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever); Aeon (personified as an evil force); existence, the present life (Mt 13:22; Mk 4.19)

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, which cannot always be pinned down with absolute certainty of meaning.., Heb., where the meaning is quite clear .. and naturally those cases where aion is used in the plural, all reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

http://www.bibletexts.com/sh/hg/g0165.htm

• aionion, aionios – [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; ***. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – [size=+1]&#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957;[/size] - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek [The classical period extended from ca. 800 BC to ca. 200 AD.]
[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;[/size] aion onos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also he, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aio like Poseido, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWon, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tes hekastou zoes chronon . . aion hekastou kekletai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):

I. lifetime, life, psuche te kai aion Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mede toi ai. phthineto Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aionos neos oleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aionos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiona dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiona E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiona A.Th.219 .

2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellon aion posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.

3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.

II. long space of time, age, aion gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aionos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhomaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aionos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aionos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiona aionos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aionos kai heos aionos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heos aionos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiona Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aionos phobous Epicur.Sent.20 .

2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aion houtos this present world, opp. ho mellon, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib.Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. ton aionon LXX 4 Ma.18.24 , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo ton ai., pro ton ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta tele ton ai. ib.10.11.
• • • •
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I believe wigrims,and young were un-biased. As for Dr.Strong he himself had to stay in the bounds of his orthodox beliefs which made him biased.

Yes it is a matter of "Your" theology, because that's what youv'e been taught to believe, and not what "The Bible" say's.

Every time you think the bible is "Inerrant" you bow down to the Catholic church. Do you know that?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

7to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

Immortality,Incorruptibility,without end,never ending.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Tell me Where is "Everlasting" or "Eternal" or "Forever" even rendered??

Shouldn't the translators used "Aionios" for Immortality, since immortality means deathlessness?????
because according to theolgy thats what they term "Eternal Life".[/SIZE]

It would appear that if a resource agrees with you then it is "unbiased" but if it contradicts you then it is "biased." Please be sure to read Liddell-Scott-Jones the classical Greek lexicon, which documents the words is question meaning forever, eternal, unending, etc. about 800 years BC from historical writings of the period. Now having access to more extensive Greek resources, let us review your misinterpretation of the out-of-context scriptures you cited, above.

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post continued.

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

Where does Jesus ever state or imply this was only temporary?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death. Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, usually not clearly understood, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When do the words change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

My previous post, Jewish language resources and Jewish Encyclopedia, the OT Jewish concept of the eternal, unending, forever condition of the unrepentant.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400791&postcount=87

I have much, much more, Including the writings of the early church, e.g. Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, Barnabas, Clement R, Clement A, Theophilus, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

Many sources, some of which you have selectively quoted to favor "your" false theology, all which show that aionios, and all it cognates, has always has the inherent meaning, forever, unending, eternal, etc.

[SIZE=-1]I like how you completly ignore what was stated der.

you have pasted these same things of yours for quite some time haven't you?

I'll ask you this question since youv'e dodged the other ones.

How can Aion (singular) have a Aionios (plural)?
In fact if eternal (aion) is "Without end" what does Aionios mean "Without ends"?

I like how you like to quote those that Favor your "False'" theology which can't seem to figure out "World without end" or "End of the world". Which one is the right rendering for "Aion" age Der?[/SIZE]

Unlike you with your asinine accusation I haven't just quoted the ones that favor my Theology. Sounds like a school yard taunt, "Neener, neener, neener, you are one too-oo." Is that the best you can do?

I quoted some of the same sources you did, but I included what you deliberately omitted to make it appear they supported you.

I have ignored nothing. Re: "World without end" or "End of the world" Tell me where you are talking about and I will address it. I think I address it in this post.

Meanwhile why don't you go back and start addressing my posts, that you are evidently aware of, neither you nor any other universalists has responded to them with any kind of reasonable discussion.

"How can Aion (singular) have a Aionios (plural)? Because it is not a true plural, it is, The Jewish figure of speech of Epizeuxis: or, Duplication; or Repetitio: or, Repetition. Words or phrases are repeated for emphasis.

http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/616/fospeech.htm

Josh 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,

“God of gods,” Deut 10:17 Josh 22:22 Psalms 136:2 Dan 2:47 Dan 11:36

“Lord of lords,” Deut 10:17 Psalms 136:3

Num 5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: [[size=+1] &#1506;&#1491;&#1497;&#1470;&#1506;&#1491;[/size]/adi-ad] for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting [[size=+1] &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;[/size]/olamim] strength:

Isaiah 26:4 [SIZE=+1] &#1489;&#1496;&#1495;&#1493; &#1489;&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1506;&#1491;&#1497;&#1470;&#1506;&#1491; &#1499;&#1497; &#1489;&#1497;&#1492; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1510;&#1493;&#1512; &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;​

[/SIZE]

In Isa 26:4, the Hebrew phrase translated “for ever” is [SIZE=+1] &#1506;&#1491;&#1497;&#1470;&#1506;&#1491;[/SIZE]/adi-ad,” “eternity of eternity. The word “ad,” “eternity” is reduplicated for emphasis.

Then God’s strength is said to be [SIZE=+1] &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;[/SIZE]/olamim. The word &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;/olamim is plural, “everlastings strength.”

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting [[size=+1] &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;[/size]/olamim] salvation: [[size=+1] &#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;[/size]/yeshuah] ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. [[size=+1] &#1506;&#1491;&#1470;&#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;&#1497; &#1506;&#1491;[/size]/ad-olami-ad]​

The first occurrence of olam, in this verse is plural, olamim, i.e. “everlastings” An everlastings salvation.

The second occurrence of olam is between the word “ad,” and “ad,” which means “eternity.” The word “ad,” is repeated for emphasis, ad-olami-ad, “eternity-of forever-eternity.”

The pairing of the words [SIZE=+1] &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;[/size]/olam and [SIZE=+1]&#1506;&#1491;[/SIZE]/ad in Is 45:17 and 26:4, shows they had the same meaning to the ancient Jews.

Universalist argue that Jonah 2:6 “proves” [SIZE=+1] &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1502;[/SIZE]/olam does not mean eternal, forever, because Jonah was only in the fish for three days, not forever. But the Hebrew does not read exactly as the English translations.

See translators notes from the New English Translation. Note, this proof text is a, “rhetorical nominative construction” There is a big difference between “about me forever” and “against me forever.”

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

NET 28 tn Heb “As for the earth, its bars [were] against me forever.” This line is a verbless clause. The verb in the translation has been supplied for the sake of clarity and smoothness. The rhetorical nominative construction (see the note on the word “gates” earlier in this verse) has also been smoothed out in the translation.​

The reduplication of words, for emphasis, is mirrored in the N.T. by the reduplication of [SIZE=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;[/SIZE]/aion, for emphasis, in the following verses.

[SIZE=+1]&#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;[/SIZE], Gal 1:5, Philip 4:20, 1 Tim 1:17, 2 Tim 4:18, Heb 13:21, 1 Pet 4:11, 1 Pet 5:11, Rev 1:6, 1:18, 4:9, 10; 5:13, 14; 7:12; 11:15; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5

Eph 3:21 [SIZE=+1]&#964;&#959;&#965; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#959;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;[/SIZE]

Heb 1:8 [SIZE=+1]&#964;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945; &#964;&#959;&#965; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#959;&#962;[/SIZE]

Rev 14:10 [SIZE=+1]&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;[/SIZE]

Jesus often repeated words for emphasis, for example, [SIZE=+1]&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;[/SIZE]. In the gospel of John, Jesus repeats [SIZE=+1]&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;[/SIZE], at least, twenty seven times, most often at the beginning of a sentence. This is usually translated “Verily,” or “Truly.”

John 1:51; 3:3, 5, 11; 5:19, 24, 25, 6:26, 32, 47, 53, 70; 8:34, 51, 58; 10:1, 7,; 12:24; 13:16; 18, 20, 21, 38; 14:12; 16:20, 23; 21:18

The Universalist argument would have to be that [SIZE=+1]&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;[/SIZE]/amen,” didn’t mean “amen,” because Jesus had to repeat it.

Other examples of reduplication in the N.T.

1Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee​

 

[katallasso]

AIÓN means different DURATIONS ,as determined by what it is applied to ...
'aionios' and 'ateleutetos' discussed:
Definition of the meaning of 'Aion' :-
" 'Duration , determined by the subject to which it is applied.' Thus it only expresses the idea of endlessness when connected with what is endless, as God. The word great is an illustrative word. Great applied to a tree, or mountain, or man, denotes different degrees, all finite, but when referring to God, it has the sense of infinite. Infinity does not reside in the word great but it has that meaning when applied to God. It does not impart it to God, it derives it from him. So of aiónion; applied to Jonah's residence in the fish, it means seventy hours; to the priesthood of Aaron, it signifies several centuries; to the mountains, thousands of years; to the punishments of a merciful God, as long as is necessary to vindicate his law and reform his children; to God himself, eternity. What great is to size, aiónios is to duration. Human beings live from a few hours to a century; nations from a century to thousands of years; and worlds, for aught we know, from a few to many millions of years, and God is eternal. So that when we see the word applied to a human life it denotes somewhere from a few days to a hundred years; when it is applied to a nation, it denotes anywhere from a century to ten thousand years, more or less, and when to God it means endless. In other words it practically denotes indefinite duration, as we shall see when we meet the word in sacred and secular literature."
- from: THE GREEK WORD 'AIÓN' -- 'AIÓNIOS' , TRANSLATED 'Everlasting' -- 'Eternal' IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
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Teaching of the Twelve Apostles "An examination of the earliest Christian creeds and declarations of Christian opinion discloses the fact that no formula of Christian belief for several centuries after Christ contained anything incompatible with the broad faith of the Gospel--the universal redemption of mankind from sin. The earliest of all the documents pertaining to this subject is the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles." 1 This work was discovered in manuscript in the library of the Holy Sepulchre, in Constantinopole, by Philotheos Bryennios, and published in 1875. It was bound with Chrysostom's "Synopsis of the Works of the Old Testament," the "Epistle of Barnabas," A.D. 70-120--two epistles of Clement, and less important works. The "Teaching" was quoted by Clement of Alexandria, by Eusebius and by Athanasius, so that it must have been recognized as early as A.D. 200. It was undoubtedly composed between A.D. 120 and 160. An American edition of the Greek text and an English translation were published in New York in 1884, with notes by Roswell D. Hitchcock and Francis Brown, professors in Union Theological Seminary, New York"
from : UNIVERSALISM IN THE EARLY CENTURIES
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd1.html

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"N. B. THE FAILURE TO TRANSLATE "AION" AS "AGE," CAN BE MISLEADING AND OFTEN HIDE VITAL TRUTH.
Some scholars say that in the following phrases, it can be misleading to translate "aion" and "aionios" literally as "age," or "ages," because they are idiomatic However, the failure to recognise the literal meaning of "aion," or "aionios," can also mislead us, and hide essential truth. Many theologians and translators seem to have failed to recognise the theological importance, significance, and meaning that God desires us to see in "aion" and "aionios," and because of this have not comprehended God's wonderful plan of the ages. The translation of "aion," as "world," or "ever," has often obscured some of the truth that God wanted us to understand from His Scriptures. Consider the following.
(a). "en touto to aion," literally, "in this age," is translated in the A.V. as "in this world." Mt.12v32. The A.V. translates "aion" thirty six times as "world," and it often fails to carry the significance that God intended."
(b). "eis aiona," literally, "unto an age," translated in A.V. as "for ever." Jude.v13.
(c). "eis ton aiona," literally, "unto the age," is translated as "for evermore," or "for ever," or, with a negative, as "never." Mt.21v19. Mk3v29. 11v14. Lk.1v55. Jn.4v14. 6v51,58. twice in Jn.8v35., Jn.8v51,52. 10v28. 11v26. 12v34. 13v8. 14v16. 1Cor.8v13. 2Cor.9v9. Heb.5v6. 6v20. 7v17,21,24,28. 1Pet.1v25. 1Jn.2v17. 2Jn.v2.
(d). "eis tous aionas," literally, "unto the ages," is translated as "for ever," or "for evermore." In Mt.6v13. in Majority Text, lacking in Aleph and B, Lk.1v33. Rom.1v25. 9v5. 11v36. 16v27. 2Cor.11v31. Heb.13v8.
(e). "eis pantas tous aionas," literally, "unto all the ages," is translated in NKJ as "both now and forever." Jude.v25.
(f). "eis hemeran aionos," literally, "unto a day of an age," is translation in the A.V. as "for ever." 2Pet.3v18.
The Greek constructions of our "for ever and ever," occur in the following places."
(g). "eis tous aionas ton aionon," literally, "unto the ages of the ages," is translated as "for ever and ever," or "for evermore." Gal1v5. Phil.4v20. 1Tim.1v17. 2Tim.4v18. Heb.13v21. 1Pet.4v11. 5v11. Rev.1v6,18. 4v9,10. 5v13. 7v12. 10v6. 11v15. 15v7. 19v3. 20v10. 22v5.
(h). "eis ton aiona tou aionos," literally, "unto the age of the age," is translated in A.V. as "for ever and ever." Heb.1v8.
(i). "eis aionas aionon," literally, "unto ages of ages," is translated in the A.V. as "for ever and ever." Rev.14v11.
(j). "tou aionos ton aionon," literally, "of the age of the ages," is translated in A.V. as ""for ever and ever." Eph.3v21. "
http://www.thesecretofeternallife.com/judgementc.html
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It seems to me that if our God wanted us to have an understanding of the "ages" the perpetual false rendering of the word aionos is obliterating that.

"For example, the Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement). "
Origin of Endless Punishment
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

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"Well, it seems a proper translation of this little word aion eliminates many contradictions in quite a few Bible translations, which, by the way, have caused many to abandon Christianity because they said the Bible contradicts itself. The fact of the matter is, some Bible translations do contradict themselves, but not in the original languages. "
The Power of Life and Death in a Greek Four Letter Word--Aion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Powe...LetterWord.html
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The Council Refused to Condemn Universalism
Even the influence of Justinian and his servile, compliant bishop, and his disreputable queen, failed to force the measure through. The action of this local Synod has been incorrectly ascribed to the Fifth Ecumenical Council, nine years later, which has also been inaccurately supposed to have condemned Universalism, when it merely reprehended some of the erratic notions of "Origenism"--doctrines that even Origen himself never accepted, but that were falsely ascribed to him by ignorant or malicious opponents; doctrines that no more resemble universal restoration, as taught by the Alexandrine fathers, than they resemble Theosophy or Buddhism. So that, though the Home Synod was called by the Emperor Justinian expressly to condemn Universalism, and was commanded by imperial edict to anathematize it, and though it formulated fifteen canons, it refused to obey the Emperor, and did not say one word against the doctrine the Emperor wished to anathematize. The local council came to no decision. Justinian had just arbitrarily condemned the writings of Theodore of Mopsuestia, and Theodoret, and a terrible controversy and division ensued, and Theodorus, of Cesaræa, declared that both himself and Pelagius, who had sought the condemnation of Origen, ought to be burnt alive for their conduct.6
from: Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism :
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd21.html
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"Of decisive importance is the new usage of aion found in the New Testament, where we hear Christ speaking of ‘this (present) aion,’ ‘the end of this aion,’ and ‘the coming (future) aion.’ … To speak of ‘this aion,' its ‘end' and ‘the aion to come' clearly lends to aion the meaning of a limited time."
Life, Time, Entirety:
http://www.askelm.com/newsletter/l200501.htm
" No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore "indefinite," since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense "spiritual," "pertaining to the unseen world," "an attribute of that which is above and beyond time" "
F.W. Farrar on "aeonian"
http://www.saviour-of-all.org/faithfathers.html
www.christianforums.com/~stranger (15 views)

 

[katallasso]

All the popular concordances are doing is copying each other in the rendering of the word aionios because the false doctrine of an eternal hellfire has been so engraned over the past 100's of years.

It is obvious if you take the time to look at how the word is being used that there is something wrong. How can one word be an age, a world, a course, forever at the same time. It's rediculous. Look at the scriptures it is used in, actually take the time to think about it instead of making knee jerk accessments to perpetuate a false doctrine.

 

[gort]

All the popular concordances are doing is copying each other in the rendering of the word aionios because the false doctrine of an eternal hellfire has been so engraned over the past 100's of years.

It is obvious if you take the time to look at how the word is being used that there is something wrong. How can one word be an age, a world, a course, forever at the same time. It's rediculous. Look at the scriptures it is used in, actually take the time to think about it instead of making knee jerk accessments to perpetuate a false doctrine.

Hello,

I recall Irenaeus spoke of eternal torment in his writings, so I don't think it's something ingrained over the last couple hundred years.

I posted something from AT Robertson regarding the word 'aionios', and he stated it is prolly the best word, in the greek, to explain the word, as translated, as 'eternal'.

In your knowledge of the greek, is there a word to be used that would leave no question as to its meaning of 'eternal'?


I find that in Mat 25:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1141846789-679.html

In the surrounding context of Matt 25:46, I find no clues, nor do I find in the entirety of the bible Scripture, any allusion to an end to the LOF.

So with context in mind, I, who does'nt know greek, and may be in error, have no problem with using no.3 definition, in context of Matt 25.46.

Life with Christ Jesus is 'without end, never to cease, everlasting.

Life without Christ Jesus is 'without end, never to cease, everlasting.

If I were to talk of God and use the word aionios, definition no. 1 might be appropriate.

And after finding this Scripture, I see it is appropriate.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

So I ask, baring my ignorance before all, is there a better word to use that leaves no question whatsoever?

thanx

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