Hell is not permanent.

[Der Alte]

The earliest church fathers on the Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment. They did not have PhDs, etc.

I suppose the universalist knee jerk answer will be that the early church fathers were just copying each other, like they claim the modern scholars are. What that ridiculous comment overlooks is, if there was a competent scholar, of any stripe, universalist or otherwise, who could prove that from, valid, historical, sources, the proponents would be crowing it from every roof top, and liberal media outlet, in the world. What do we see and hear? DEAD SILENCE! Because there is not one microscopic sliver of evidence proving the Greek lexicons, concordances, etc. wrong.

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that "what is impossible with men is possible with God,"42 and, "Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell."43 And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass

And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame."

Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,

A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.

But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.

And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14

Chapter IX.-Eternal Punishment Not a Mere Threat.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [a.d. 120-202.] Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John

So says the apostle, in like manner, in the Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, at the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven with His mighty angels, and in a flame of fire, to take vengeance upon those who know not God, and upon those that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them who have believed in Him."

Irenaeus Book V

But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226

Clement Rome [a.d. 30-100.]

Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades, through the sedition which they excited against God's servant Moses.

For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up.

On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm#P171_20841

Clement Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen [153-193-217 AD]

And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, in as much as they held goodness in high esteem; while,on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: "He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire? "120 What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men's minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.

He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord "has prepared for the devil and his angels."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-50.htm#P2691_785581

Clement of Alex. The Instructor [Paedagogus] Bk 2

There was a certain man," said the Lord, narrating, "very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day." This was the hay. "And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table." This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father's bosom.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-53.htm#P3706_1120269

The Second Epistle of Clement.

For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, "If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity."38 Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how39 can we hope to enter into the royal residence40 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-28.htm#P5819_852153

Theophilus to Autolycus Book I. [115-168-181 AD]

Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, "We have not heard, neither have we known." But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures,21 and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing22 seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither hath eye seen, nor ear heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive.23 But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish,24 and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, "Show me thy God," this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/TOC.htm

St. John Chrysostom Homily IX. [347-407]
1 Corinthians chapter 3, verse 12-15 If any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it hath no end Christ indeed declared when he said, "Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die. [Mark chapter 8, verse 44 and Mark chapter 8, verse 46 and Mark chapter 8, verse 48]

As I said then; that it hath no end, Christ has declared. Paul also saith, in pointing out the eternity of the punishment, that the sinners "shall pay the penalty of destruction, and that for ever" (2 Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 9) And again, (1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 9) "Be not deceived; neither fornicators. nor adulterers, nor effeminate, shall inherit the the kingdom of God." And also unto the Hebrews he saith, (Hebrews chapter 12, verse 14) "Follow peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord." And Christ also, to those who said, "In thy Name we have done many wonderful works," saith, "Depart from Me, I know you not, ye workers of iniquity" (St. Matthew chapter 7, verse 22) And the virgins too who were shut out, entered in no more. And also about those who gave Him no food, He saith, (St. Matthew chapter 25, verse 46) "They shall go away into everlasting punishment."

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-14.htm
​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]No, not rubbish, it proves the problem began with the translation of the Latin Vulgate and St. Augustine perpetuating his Manechean doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]RUBBISH![/SIZE] You are not even reading what I post.. Just pasting the same garbage over and over and over again.

Latin has absolutely nothing to do with anything I posted.

I posted GREEK lexicons, including the LSJ, which documents that aion and aionios, and thier cognates, always had the inherent meaning eternal, forever, unending, everlasting, from the first recorded usage about 800 years BC. GREEK! Hundreds of years before Jerome, Augustine, etc. NOT Latin. GREEK! READ what I posted!!

The early church fathers, I quoted, also wrote a few hundred years before any of the Latin scholars you mentioned. READ!

 

[katallasso]

No, not rubbish, you obviously are not reading what I wrote either.

It is because of the problem with the latin translation that the translators are now translating the greek wrongly. They are perpetuating the eternal hellfire doctrine of the pagans and St. Augustine after Constantine did his melding together.

And for your information here are some other early fathers that did believe in Universalism.

Of all the early Christian leaders, Origen rose to the top in defending the character of God against the pagan concepts of God that were beginning to penetrate. His life touched many who would become great men of God in their time. Many of their writings are lost or destroyed, but we have accounts of their lives recorded in letters from one church leader to another. St. Gregory of Thoumaturgus (c. 213-270), a church father and a disciple of Origen became bishop of Neo Caesoreia and was famous for the many miracles in his ministry. Pamphilus was also a disciple of Origen, who became head of the theological school at Caesarea. He founded the famous library which contained thousands of Christian writings.

St. Athanasius, the Archbishop of Alexandria was also a student of Origen and defends him as orthodox. Athanasius nominated Didymus the Blind as president of the school of Alexandria. Didymus was a strong believer in the "Restitution of All Things." "Didymus was a zealous Universalist who explicitly endorsed Origen's opinion on the conversion of devils" (A Dictionary of the Bible, Hastings, publ. By Scribner, 1963). St. Jerome says of him, "Didymus surpassed all of his day in knowledge of the Scriptures."
The highly acclaimed Didymus writes: "Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins..are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all" (Comm. in 1 Peter 3).

St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian says in his Catechetical Orations: "Our Lord is the One who delivers man (all men), and who heals the inventor of evil himself."
As one can see, one of the greatest strengths of the early church was their strong faith in a God who can do what appears to the modern Christian as impossible.
Jerome says this next man, Titus, bishop of Bostra was, "one of the most important church writers of his time." Titus writes: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

Next we have Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and bishop of Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (publ. Baker Book, 1969), we read of Diodore: "A teacher of great repute in the school at Antioch, and afterwards bishop of Jerusalem, was also a Universalist, who, in opposition to the then general prevalence of allegorical interpretation, strictly adhered to the natural import of the text in his many commentaries on the Scriptures. He defended Universalism on the ground that the divine mercy far exceeds all the effects and all the deserts of sin."
Diodore wrote: "For the wicked are punished, not perpetual, but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period...according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end awaits them. The resurrection, therefore is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil."

Here we see that leaders who used allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures and leaders who used literal interpretation of the Scriptures both came to the conclusive decision based on Scripture that eternal punishment was not scriptural!

McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature has this to say about the next church leader of the early church:

"Theodore, who is called the crown and climax of the school of Antioch and whose writings were textbooks in the school of Eastern Syria, was a prominent and influential Universalist. His theory was that sin is an incidental part of the development and education of the human race; that while some are more involved in it than others, God will overrule it to the final establishment of all in good. He is the reputed author of the liturgy used by the Nestorians, a church which at one time equaled in its membership the combined adherents of both the Greek and Latin communions. In the addresses and prayers of this liturgy Universalism is distinctly avowed."
Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says that, "His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine." Theodore, of whom the average modern Christian does not even know ever existed, has this to say:
"That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, 'Until thou has paid the uttermost farthing' unless it were possible for us to be cleansed when we have paid the debt" (quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin).

Of John Cassian (c. 360-435), the Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia says: "Under the instruction of these great teachers (i.e. Theodore of Mopsuestia and John Cassian, etc.) many theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it."

Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466), was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius's work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school."
Theodoret writes: "He shews the reason of penalty, for the Lord, who loves men, chastises in order to heal, like a physician, that he may arrest the course of our sin" (Hom. in Ezech. ch. 6).

Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna, in a sermon on the Good Shepherd, says the lost sheep represents, "The whole human race lost in Adam," and that Christ, "followed the one, seeks the one in order that in the one he may restore all."

A few of the better known christians of the last few centuries who believe in Ultimate Reconciliation include, William Law, William Barclay, Hannah Hurnard, Jane Leade, Jeremy White: Chaplain to Oliver Cromwell to list a few. Notice this is not a list of off the wall airheads.


I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST
by William Barclay
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.
Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way. (Partial copy)

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]No, not rubbish, you obviously are not reading what I wrote either.

It is because of the problem with the latin translation that the translators are now translating the greek wrongly. They are perpetuating the eternal hellfire doctrine of the pagans and St. Augustine after Constantine did his melding together.

And for your information here are some other early fathers that did believe in Universalism[/SIZE].[...]

[SIZE=+1]RUBBISH![/SIZE] More blind cut and paste from hellbusted.

Have you read a single one of these books or writings that you are quoting? NO! I did my own research. I proved my point from the PRIMARY SOURCES, that I researched myself and gave you links to those sources.

All you did was cut and paste any junk you could find from hellbusted. You don't have a clue if anything you quoted even exists. It is all second, third, and fourth hand.

Read this carefully. [SIZE=+1]YOUR LATIN ARGUMENT IS MEANINGLESS! I POSTED SOURCES THAT SHOW THE GREEK, AION AND AIONIOS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, HAD THE INHERENT MEANING OF EVERLASTING, FOREVER, UNENDING, ETERNAL! THE GREEK SUPPORTS THE KJV![/SIZE]

Now read that until you understand it. The mindless oafs at hellbusted and tentburners are not scholars. Just a bunch of universalists posting anything they can think of to convince the rest of you. And like sheep that have gone astray you swallow it, whole hog, if it is posted at hellbusted and it supports universalism then it must be true.

The people at hellbusted were not there when the King James translators did their translating, they don't have a clue what the KJ writers did or did not know, did or did not read or consult. Unless they, or you, can produce verifiable, historical, evidence from 1611 that states that.

The PRIMARY sources I posted were from the 1st and 2d centuries and included Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. If an early church father in direct line from and only one generation from, John did not teach universalism then it is not Biblical. None of the early church fathers in the first three centuries advocated universalism, it is a later heresy.

 

[katallasso]

YOUR LATIN ARGUMENT IS MEANINGLESS! I POSTED SOURCES THAT SHOW THE GREEK, AION AND AIONIOS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, HAD THE INHERENT MEANING OF EVERLASTING, FOREVER, UNENDING, ETERNAL! THE GREEK SUPPORTS THE KJV!

Wow!!! You do get testy don't you? You're greek argument is every bit as meaningless to me. Don't you understand what I am trying to say? From way back in the time of Jerome they had problems that began the hellfire influence and that is why your greek scholars have the word translated wrong. So therefore your scholars writings are meaningless to me.

If there is a perfectly good greek word for eternity that is used in Romans 1 why is it not used for the other scriptures? Obviously it is because our Lord is trying to get across to us a plan for the ages.

And if you can copy and paste your stuff that you have learned your doctrine from (which you have done every bit as much as I have) then I have every right to do it with mine also. Besides that what is wrong with copying and pasting if it adds to your debate? I guess you have to have something to fuss about.

 

[katallasso]

Maybe if we have a bit of a grammar lesson here.
Take these two scriptures.

Col. 1:26... {that is,} the mystery which has been hidden from the {past} ages (aions) and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

Jude 1:7... Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In Colosians we have the word properly translated "ages". In Jude we have the adj. form of "aion", "aionios" translated eternal. How can the same word have 2 distinctly different meanings?


A noun is a word that tells what you are talking about. A noun is a word that names something, a person, place, thing, quality, etc. Boy, water, tree, age and truth are all nouns. An adjective is a word that is used with a noun to describe it.
Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of grammar (English or Greek) knows that the meaning of a noun and the meaning of the same word in its adjective form must correspond. It cannot have one meaning as a noun and a different meaning as an adjective.

 

[hybrid]

hi k,

what about a grammar lesson on synonyms and antonyms..

how do explain this verse:

Luke 1:33
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionios), his kingdom will never end." NIV

as far as this verse is concerned, it practically interpret the word aionios by itself, when it said his reign is aionios, and his kindom will never end.

and if the kingdom of god will never end, and we know that a class of people will never ever enter it, then the fate of this people is co-terminus with the kingdom of god. they'll staying outside will also never end.

or this verse...

2 Cor 4:18
18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. NIV

you may object that the antonym of temporary is permanentl. but if you applied it to punisment, the meaning remains the same.

permanent punishment - conveys an idea of punishment that is final, continuing, irriversible.

it's imposible to change the entire message of the scriptures by just changing the meaning of one word.imo


.

 

[katallasso]

hi k,

what about a grammar lesson on synonyms and antonyms..

how do explain this verse:

Luke 1:33
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionios), his kingdom will never end." NIV

as far as this verse is concerned, it practically interpret the word aionios by itself, when it said his reign is aionios, and his kindom will never end.

and if the kingdom of god will never end, and we know that a class of people will never ever enter it, then the fate of this people is co-terminus with the kingdom of god. they'll staying outside will also never end.

or this verse...

2 Cor 4:18
18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. NIV

you may object that the antonym of temporary is permanentl. but if you applied it to punisment, the meaning remains the same.

permanent punishment - conveys an idea of punishment that is final, continuing, irriversible.

it's imposible to change the entire message of the scriptures by just changing the meaning of one word.imo


.

Luk 1:32 he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, Luk 1:33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

This is simply explaining the type of reign He will have to Mary.

In your terms I suppose the class of people you are speaking of are those who are being punished forever.
But this is not going to happen, because our God is going to reconcile the world unto Himself for He is "the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Tim 4:10)

2Cr 4:18 we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during. (Youngs)

18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian. (Concordant Literal)

(Rotherham) 2 Corinthians 4:18 So long as we are not looking out for the visible things, but for the invisible; for, the visible things, are temporary, whereas, the invisible, are age-abiding.

These translations do not stand up to your reasoning.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Luk 1:33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

It would seem in this case that to the ages is a bit misleading, as it would imply to many that there is and end but the word we see here translated as to seems to mean 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

If the text quoted was worded into , for or among would be less missleading to the reader.

ALT
Luk 1:33 "And He will reign over the house of Jacob into the ages [fig. forever], and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Of course this has nothing to do with duration of punishment. Duration is always gathered from context not the word itself.

I could say it has been ages since I last saw my brother. I could also say it has been ages since Jesus walked the earth. It should be obivous to the reader that these are two completely different periods of time based not on the word but the context of the sentence.

One should never ever assume that because it is referring to a certian period of time in one usage that it always refers to that period of time. Context must dictate.

But then that is what you have been saying

 

[katallasso]

It would seem in this case that to the ages is a bit misleading, as it would imply to many that there is and end but the word we see here translated as to seems to mean 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

This is why we should look at several reputable translations. And compare with other scriptures on the same subject.

33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation." (Concordant Literal)

(Rotherham) Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob, unto the ages, and, of his kingdom, there shall be, no end.

(Wey NT) Luke 1:33 and He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end."

 

[Havahope]

Luke 1:33 "And he shall reign ( basileuo) over the House of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom (basileia) there shall be no end."

May I suggest that it is not the rule or reign - basileuo - to which there is no end. For the basileuo was to be "to the ages (aion)". But it is the kingdom (basileia ) itself, which will never end.

1Cor. 15: 24. " Then cometh the end, when he [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign (basileus), till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

 

[hybrid]

Luke 1:33 "And he shall reign ( basileuo) over the House of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom (basileia) there shall be no end."

May I suggest that it is not the rule or reign - basileuo - to which there is no end. For the basileuo was to be "to the ages (aion)". But it is the kingdom (basileia ) itself, which will never end.

1Cor. 15: 24. " Then cometh the end, when he [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign (basileus), till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

hi havahope,

consider then this popular verse:
"The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

does this mean that until god subdued his enemies, christ will stop sitting at god's right hand.?

no because elsewhere in the bible, stated that he will reign with god ...

Rev 22:3-5
The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
NIV

Rev 11:15 NIV

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."

If god will reign with or thru christ aioónas toón aioónoon,
in what sense then it meant not eternal if it is god's reign already?



.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Wow!!! You do get testy don't you? You're greek argument is every bit as meaningless to me. Don't you understand what I am trying to say? From way back in the time of Jerome they had problems that began the hellfire influence and that is why your greek scholars have the word translated wrong. So therefore your scholars writings are meaningless to me.

If there is a perfectly good greek word for eternity that is used in Romans 1 why is it not used for the other scriptures? Obviously it is because our Lord is trying to get across to us a plan for the ages.

And if you can copy and paste your stuff that you have learned your doctrine from (which you have done every bit as much as I have) then I have every right to do it with mine also. Besides that what is wrong with copying and pasting if it adds to your debate? I guess you have to have something to fuss about. [/SIZE]

First don't quote me what any "famous" guy said in the 18th or 18th century, I don't care. Just because he earned a lot of money doing something and became famous doesn't mean he knows diddly about scripture.

I don't know why the word you claim is a perfectly good word for eternity was not used in other scriptures. That is a logical fallacy, argument from ignorance.

I apparently am wasting my time even trying to talk to you. Jerome is irrelevant, hundreds of years [SIZE=+1]before[/SIZE] Jerome the early church fathers interpreted aion and its cognates as eternal, unending, forever. I posted the references and links.

More than a 1000 years [SIZE=+1]before[/SIZE] Jerome the classical Greek writers, e.g. Aristotle, Plato, etc. used aion, and its cognates to mean eternal, unending, forever, etc. I posted the sources.

You either cannot or will not read. You ignored the documented historical, not website, evidence I posted and keep repeating Jerome, Jerome, over and over again. So if the many, many recognized, qualified, trained, Greek scholars I cited were wrong then so were all the classical Greek writers from 800 BC. So no I didn't quote stuff that I have learned from my doctrine.

Actually you appear to know diddly squat about the subject. You evidently have not done any actual research of your own. The only thing you have done is copy paste second, third, and fourth hand junk from a website. Unless you quote primary sources, it is worthless. That kind of stuff will get you flunked at most colleges.

OTOH I quoted primary sources, Lexicons and concordances by noted scholars; Brown-Driver-Briggs, Louw-Nida; Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker, Vines, Robertson, TWOT, TDNT, NIDNTT, all sources that have been reviewed by other qualified languages experts.

If any qualfied scholar had, or could, find anything wrong with any of those resources don't you think they would be screeching it from the roof tops, and broadcasting if from every radio and TV station in the free world? The truth is there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with any resource I quoted. The only place anyone can see anybody at all trying to make that claim are places like chat rooms, by people who couldn't parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it. Not only that they don't have a clue what I mean by parse a verb.

Your source is a website maintained by some guy, the academic community never heard of, none of his stuff has been reviewed by anybody. You don't know, nor does anybody else, if anything he says is true or not. You might as well quote Goldilocks and the 3 bears, or the Arabian Nights.

Now if you were to go to a library, and read peer reviewed primary sources, by accredited scholars, you might have something worth reading.

I don't go to a web site when I have a medical problem. I don't go to a website when I need legal counsel. I sure as H ain't going to base my beliefs and risk my eternal soul on what some unknown clown posts on his website.

But I will trust Biblical resources written by accredited Bible scholars, published by legitimate publishers, and reviewed by the academic community. You want to bet your soul on some unknown dood on the internet, be my guest.

 

[katallasso]

Der Alter responded:

I don't know why the word you claim is a perfectly good word for eternity was not used in other scriptures. That is a logical fallacy, argument from ignorance.

To what I wrote:

Now there is a word for everlasting, it is aiodios. Because aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It just goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." The actual use of aiodios should tell us something. If there is actually a greek word for "everlasting" why wasn't it used? Worth thinking about.

According to Strongs which I am sure you approve :
Lexicon Results for aidios (Strong's 126)Greek for 12

Pronunciation Guideaidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
TDNT ReferenceRoot WordTDNT - 1:168,25from 104Part of SpeechadjOutline of Biblical Usage

1) eternal, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

Romans 1:20...
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jude 6...And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So we see here two perfectly good instances of the actual word for eternity being used. Seems Paul and Jude had no trouble using it. Doesn't it strike you odd that it is not used elsewhere. Seems God's plan for the "ages" is being undermined.

 

[katallasso]

More than a 1000 years [SIZE=+1]before[/SIZE] Jerome the classical Greek writers, e.g. Aristotle, Plato, etc. used aion, and its cognates to mean eternal, unending, forever, etc. I posted the sources.

Of course they did....they were greek, it's a greek word. It is the latin words Jerome used to translate aion that are the problem.

"Concerning Aristotle's use of the word in his famous sentence, "Life, an aión continuous and eternal," it is enough to say that if aión intrinsically meant endless, Aristotle never would have sought to strengthen the meaning by adding "continuous" and "eternal," any more than one would say, God has an eternity, continuous and endless. He has a life, an existence, an aión endless, just as man's aión on earth is limited; just as Idumea's smoke in the Old Testament is aiónios. Nor, had Aristotle considered aión to mean eternity, would he have said in this very passage: "the time of the life of each individual has been called his aión." J. W. Hanson

I know how you hate the websites where various and sundry writers are posted. These websites are not just one mans writings, they are composed of many knowledgable people and what they have studied and found to be true.

Most of them believed in an eternal hell at one time and studied to show themselves approved and began to see a difference in what the greek said and what was translated in our bibles. I am going to leave a short biography on J. W. Hanson.

John Wesley Hanson


HANSON, John Wesley, author, born in Boston, Massachusetts, 12 May, 1823. After attending the Lowell high school, he entered a counting-room in that city, where he remained seven years, still continuing his studies, he was ordained to the ministry of the Universalist church in Wentworth, New Hampshire, in 1845, held pastorates in Danvers, Massachusetts, in 1846-'8, and Gardiner, Maine, in 1850-'4, and in 1848 edited the "Massachusetts Era," the first Republican paper in Lowell. He edited the "Gospel Banner" in Augusta, Maine, in 1854-'60, and was pastor in Haverhill, Massachusetts, till 1865, serving also in 1863-'4 as chaplain of the 6th Massachusetts regiment and army correspondent of the Boston "Journal" and the New York "Tribune." He was pastor in Dubuque, Iowa, in 1866-'9, and then had charge of the "New Covenant " in Chicago, Illinois, till 1884. Buchtel college, Ohio, gave him the degree of D. D. in 1876. He has published histories of Danvers, Massachusetts (Danvers, 1847), Norridgewock, Maine (Norridgewock, 1849), and Gardiner, Maine (Gardiner, 1852); "Bible Threatenings Explained " (Chicago, 1847);"Witnesses to the Truth," a collection of quotations from the poets (Boston, 1850; enlarged as "Cloud of Witnesses," 1883);" Aion-Aionios" (Chicago, 1876); " Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation" (1877); " Twelve Sermons on the Lord's Prayer" (1883); " The New Covenant," a translation of the New Testament" (2 vols., 1883-'5); and "Voices of the Faith " (1884).--His wife, Eliza Rice (HOLBROOK), born in Norridgewock, Maine, 11 April, 1825; died in Blue Island, Illinois, 16 September, 1865, married Dr. Hanson on 30 May, 1846. She published "Women Workers," a popular book.



Edited Appletons Encyclopedia, Copyright © 2001 VirtualologyTM

Here is a copy of his paper

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

TRANSLATED

Everlasting -- Eternal


IN THE

HOLY BIBLE,

SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:OBtMTOTr8HgJ:www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html++greeks+word+aionios+aristotle&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a​

 

[gort]

I refer to this one, the age after the millenium, after the dead have been judged.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

The LOF is in the last known age we are told of in the bible.

katallasso quotes:

No, the next age is the millenium not heaven. See there have been a few previous ages and there will be more to come.

I'm still curious to know if there is another age shown in the bible after the judgement and those, if any, are sent to the LOF.

 

[katallasso]

Hey Daneel,

I'm not well versed on this subject I haven't studied it in depth but I can show you what the scriptures say.

Rev 20:1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, [Daneel, notice this is yet another age]
Rev 20:8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;
Rev 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Hope this helps.

 

[gort]

Hey Daneel,

I'm not well versed on this subject I haven't studied it in depth but I can show you what the scriptures say.

Rev 20:1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, [Daneel, notice this is yet another age]
Rev 20:8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;
Rev 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
Hope this helps.

My question is in reference to an age after Rev 20:15

thanx

 

[Havahope]

hi havahope,

consider then this popular verse:
"The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

does this mean that until god subdued his enemies, christ will stop sitting at god's right hand.?

no because elsewhere in the bible, stated that he will reign with god ...

Rev 22:3-5
The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
NIV

Rev 11:15 NIV

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."

If god will reign with or thru christ aioónas toón aioónoon,
in what sense then it meant not eternal if it is god's reign already?



.

Hi hybrid,

We know that God committed all judgement into the hands of His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 5: 20. "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

If He committed all judgement into the hands of His Son, then He put Christ on the "throne" thus making Him the ruler.

However, we find in 1Cor. 15: 24-28 that there would be an end to this reign.
24. "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

I don't really understand what you are asking here, but I do not see that Rev. 11:15 or Rev. 22:3-5 says that God will reign with or through Christ aioo'nas toon aioo'noon.


I believe that what is written in the book of Revelation has already come to pass, and that it depicts with symbolism, that which spiritually brought about the end of the old Mosaic law kingdom, and the beginning of the cleansed, and throughly purged new kingdom which "shall stand forever" (Dan. 2:44)

 

[Havahope]

My question is in reference to an age after Rev 20:15

thanx

You will find the age after Rev. 20:15 described in Rev. chap. 21.