Hell is not permanent.

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]So the link I posted directly back to the paper on the professor's Yale web site is 'no name, no source, no reference'? Here it is again (replace the asterisks with periods):

pantheon*yale*edu/%7Ekd47/univ*htm[/SIZE]

No what you do since you introduced this, is you post the guy's name, and perhaps give his qualifications for commenting on the Greek. Being a Philosophy professor does not make him expert in Greek.

[SIZE=-1]I repeat:

Your vaunted team of NIV international scholars ADMITS in their own note that 'now' doesn't occur in the Greek and they added it for theological reasons.[/SIZE]

They are not my anything. They were and are [SIZE=+1]teams[/SIZE] of accredited Greek scholars, as are the translators of the NET, which I also posted and you ignored. You have not proved they admitted or acknowledged anything.

Since you are the one making the claim, the burden is on you to present the evidence. So you run out and buy the correct version of the NIV, scan it, and post the image here.

[SIZE=-1](And I should point out the ESV, the NRSV, and even the KJV don't add the 'now'.)[/SIZE]

Irrelevant! Does not address the evidence I posted. The Mormon and JW translations probably don't have it either.

[SIZE=-1]Alter, your are DELIBERATELY misleading the readers of this thread by claiming that's how the passage reads in the original Greek - implying you know Greek and did read the original Greek. Let's refresh our memory:[/SIZE]

Big words dood. Even if you could prove all your claims about your one so-called Philosophy professor, that proves diddly squat about what I know or do not know about anything. That is only one (1) guy. I have presented evidence by two teams of accredited Greek scholars, NIV and NET. And nothing you posted indicates this one guy should be believed over the two teams of scholars I referenced.

[SIZE=-1]The very men who WROTE the translation you used as a source, the NIV, say the exact opposite in a note. So the Yale professor is lying on his own paper that his official Zondervan NIV Study Bible has such a note? How about we both go to Amazon and order the official NIV Study Bible today. If it does not have that note, I will PayPal you $100 plus the cost of the Bible, and apologize publically. How about it?[/SIZE]

The burden of proof is on you. If you can't back up your assertions get out of the discussion. You have not so much as identified this so-called "expert" by name. You have not verified his qualifications in Greek. You have posted diddly squat evidence about what the NIV translators did or did not say in footnotes.

OTOH I have posted the verse from two recent translations by teams of accredited Greek scholars, NIV and NET

[SIZE=-1]Or why not just apologize publically yourself?[/SIZE]

Why should I apologize just because you can't back up what you say? You ignore most of my posts, make back stabbing comments about me and what I know, you think some Philosophy dood knows more than teams of accredited Greek scholars. If this professor dood was a noted Greek scholar what he says might have a little weight, very little considering he is only one guy challenging dozens of accredited Greek scholars.

But of course universalists will jump on what he says because it appears to support them.

No dood, you are the one who can't back up what you say, you have not proved anything about what I do or do not know about any subject, if there is any apologizing, then you better get it on. I'm waiting.

Meanwhile, my previous post, twenty seven passages Jesus speaking on the eternal, unending, forever, condition of the unrepentant. Ignored! Unanswered.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400715&postcount=86

My previous post, Jewish language resources and Jewish Encyclopedia, the OT concept of the eternal, unending, forever condition of the unrepentant. Ignored! Unanswered.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400791&postcount=87

My previous posts, Greek language resources on the meaning of Greek words translated, forever, unending, eternal, in the NT. Ignored! Unanswered.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22350181#post22350181

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22350252#post22350252

 

[gort]

Do I deserve hell?
Yes but only if it is the kind that is to bring me discipline that will draw me closer to the Father.
No if it is the eternal type, I feel none should have to bear that type of punishment for any sin committed here or anywhere for that matter.

None of my questions have been answered because there is no answer, because you cant answer because your hell makes absolutely no sense based on its merits.

Heres my question once again, have a nice lie down, chew it over in your comfy chair with some tea and crackers, and get back to me on it. You cant answer this question, if you do then you lose all validity. Maybe you'll surprise, maybe you can answer or have your own personal justification for being ok with your childs possible torment being waiffed into your nostrils while you breath the nice crisp air in heaven? Or maybe you wont and your realize what a sham your thinking is. I mean is it ok for us to believe things and to go around quoting stuff if we in our hearts dont believe it, what is the sense to please God, I mean if God knows our hearts then why bother? Or perhaps people who profess a belief in hell have absolutely no grounds to not believe it, what do they care it wont affect them, although it could potentially affect the billions of unsaved dead. I mean are we diligently seeking God? Have you ever thought about doing something, thought you could do it, but when you attempted to do it the load was too great? Perhaps you dont realize the enormity of hell now, but if at judgement time you can catch a glimpse out of the corner of your eye the trillions going into the eternal torments and your soul could feel for one instant their pain before you enter heaven, could you still enter, would you wonder what about them, did they really deserve it, could they deserve that, I need to help them.. dont I...?????
I mean really think here....

So Der Alter or anyone else who believes in hell, if your loved child's smoke of torment rises forever and ever, and if it ever reaches your lofty nose in heaven, will you even care? Or will you continue on in your delusion of grandeur and just forget about it?

I see. You want to pick and choose what kind of fire it is. Unfortunately, the decision isn't ours to make. God already made the decision, it is already finished.

As to your question, I've already answered somewhere.

I pray for my kids, neighbors and all the world.

I also told you I understand my sins before a Holy God, an am deserving of an eternal fire. My sins merit me going to the LOF forever. But it was Gods Mercy that saved me.

btw,

Commendations to Phoebe and Mac who know how to pray to God for others and fully trust the Lord.

Commendations to Der Alter for his unwaivering strictness to the Scriptures and full trust in our God.

​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]This is where I show that you don't know a word of Greek, and are deliberately trying to mislead us. Here is a Yale philosophy professor who knows classical Greek like the BACK OF HIS HAND commenting on this very passage:

pantheon*yale*edu/%7Ekd47/univ*htm

You may have been able to get away with this before, but not anymore 'dood'.[/SIZE]

Your claim this Philosophy professor, “knows classical Greek like the BACK OF HIS HAND."

Link to this professor’s CV, on his own website. No indication that he ever studied Greek, classical or Koiné. No indication that he has ever studied Theology. Just because some guy is a professor that does not qualify him in any area he wants to dabble in.

Personal:
Born, April 24, 1962; married; two children
Academic Positions:
• Yale University
o April 2005-present: Allison Foundation Professor of Philosophy
o July 2000-present: Professor of Philosophy
o July 1998-June 2000: Associate Professor of Philosophy
• Rice University
o July 1996-June 1998: Associate Professor of Philosophy
o July 1993-June 1996: Assistant Professor of Philosophy
• Sept. 1990-June 1993: Assistant Professor of Philosophy, New York University
• Sept. 1985-June 1990: Teaching Assistant, Associate, Fellow, UCLA

Areas of Spec.:
Epistemology, Philosophy of Language
Areas of Comp.:
History of Modern Philosophy, Metaphysics, Philosophy of Religion

Education:
• UCLA, 1984-1990: M.A., Philosophy, 1986; Ph.D., Philosophy, 1990
o Dissertation: "Knowledge, Epistemic Possibility, and Scepticism"; Advisor: Rogers Albritton
o Awards: Carnap Essay Prize, 1990; Griffin Fellowship, 1990; Carnap Essay Prize (co-winner), 1989; Robert M. Yost Prize for Excellence in Teaching, 1988
• Calvin College, 1980-1984: B.A., Philosophy major, 1984

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/​

Again you have shown diddly squat about what I do or do not know about Greek or anything else.

 

[newyorksaint]

If I may butt in for a second-

This guy specializes, if I read correctly, in philosophy of languages, and comps in Metaphysics and Philosophy of Religion.

While that's not a direct accolade to Greek and Theology, it's close, isn't it? So that he would have a good idea of what he's talking about?

I'm not trying to agree with any position here, but just ask a question/make an observation.

 

[Havahope]

I will never love my children more than God. He is first in my life!

The love I have for God is a different kind of love than what I have for my child. It is not a more than/less than proposition. I don't believe God would ever ask us to neglect the needs of our children on His account. The very most basic need of any child is to be loved and cared for.

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, God has these things planned out better than we do?

Yes, He very definitely does. "God is love." and "love worketh no ill." and if Jesus taught, "Love your enemies" then surely God has something different than eternal torment for His enemies. I don't believe that God is a "do as I say, and not as I do", God.

That's too bad. I wonder what would have happened if Abraham felt that way when God told him to sacrifice Isaac?????

You know when Isaac ask his father where the sacrifice was , Abraham told him that God would provide one. And sure enough God did.

BTW, what do you think would have happened if Abraham had refused to take Isaac to the top of the mountain?

 

[timlamb]

I will never love my children more than God. He is first in my life!

Phoebe Ann, how refreshing to hear, a simple statement of faith. I am sure that made God happier than any ten pages of this banter.
I remain firm, and in fact more comfident than ever, that the only path to eternity with God, is through the shed blood of our savior, Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:7-14
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, becomming like Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not concider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."
If I have failed to help make clear God's word and the all important sacrifice of our Lord, it is I that have failed. To all who live and believe by faith, hold to the truth of Christs sacrifice. Those who choose to ignore the Holy Spirit, will not listen to you or understand the scripture; they do not seek truth. Turn your attention to those who seek God's Truth.
In Christ,
timlamb

 

[newyorksaint]

If God told you to turn your back on your children, your family, what would you do? Could you do it, without any reservation, without any guarantee of their safety without you there?

While I know that we would love to follow the Lord to the exclusion of all else, could we really do it? God has ordained the family as the Holiest thing in this life. Save for the Atonement, no greater work exists than to raise a righteous family.

I personally try to love my family as much as I love God. To trulely love your family, is to love God. To put one above the other is contrary to what God wants. I believe He wants us to love them equally-hence the two great commandments.

 

[Der Alte]

[...][SIZE=-1]I know that God is the final good judge. If sinners go to hell eternally God is still God, but not the God that I imagine Him to be.[/SIZE]

I presviously posted extensive documentation, Greek lexicons, dictionaries, concordances, etc. Here! and the post following it. Read them or don’t, believe them or don’t. Scoff at them, I don’t care. Anyone who ignores/rejects the truth and causes even one lost sheep to miss salvation will answer to God, not me.

Twenty seven (27) passages. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works” but they only “say” they have.​

23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[6] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[7] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[8] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[9] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[10] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [[SIZE=+1]αμην[/SIZE]/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents any “conversion,” ever, at any time, after death?​

[11] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [[SIZE=+1]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

[12] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[13] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen[sup]4[/sup].

[sup]4[/sup] Jesus said only a few would be chosen. universalists claim "all will ultimately be chosen."​

[14] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[15] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily [[SIZE=+1]αμην[/SIZE]/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[16] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [[SIZE=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] punishment:[sup]5[/sup] but the righteous into life eternal[[SIZE=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion].

[sup]5[/sup]If the [SIZE=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion life is unending, eternal, forever, then the punishment is also, same word.​

[17] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth [sup]6[/sup] not, and the fire is not quenched.

[sup]6[/sup] If those is hell eventually leave, then the worm, in hell, that never dies, would not longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about something that does not concern them?​

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, [sup]6[/sup] and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not,[sup]6[/sup] and the fire is not quenched.

[18] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not [sup]7[/sup] enter therein.

[sup]7[/sup] When does this verse change from "shall not" to shall enter?​

[19] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[20] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

[21] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[sup]8[/sup]

[sup]8[/sup] When does this verse change from "many shall not be able [to enter]" to "shall enter?​

[22] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[23] Luke 16:22 [. . .]the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and . thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, . between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us [sup]9[/sup], that would come from thence.

[sup]9[/sup] Note, those in "hades," the place of torment, cannot leave.​

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[24] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.[sup]10[/sup]

[sup]10[/sup] When does this verse change from "shall in no wise enter therein" to "shall enter?​

[25] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [[SIZE=+1]αμην αμην[/SIZE]/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]11[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[26] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[sup]11[/sup] Note, is there any scripture showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change from "cannot see the kingdom of God" to "can see?"​

[27] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Rev 14:9-11:
&#8220;If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, [&#8230;] He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever [[size=+1]&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;[/size]]. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.&#8221;​

Cf. Rev 20:10: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever [[size=+1]&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;[/size]].

Ten thousand times ten thousand eons from now, God&#8217;s eternal, unchanging, word will still say, &#8220;There is "no rest day or night,""no rest day or night," "no rest day or night" for those who worship the beast and his image.&#8221;

Despite what the ancients may have thought, brimstone, i.e. sulfur, has no cleansing or purifying properties. John may not have known that, when he wrote Revelation, but God did.

 

[newyorksaint]

Anyone who ignores/rejects the truth and causes even one lost sheep to miss salvation will answer to God, not me

But he who does nothing to save that one, before they become lost, or to bring them back, when they had the chance to do so, will also answer to God.

 

[Havahope]

I personally try to love my family as much as I love God. To trulely love your family, is to love God. To put one above the other is contrary to what God wants. I believe He wants us to love them equally-hence the two great commandments.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]If I may butt in for a second-

This guy specializes, if I read correctly, in philosophy of languages, and comps in Metaphysics and Philosophy of Religion.

While that's not a direct accolade to Greek and Theology, it's close, isn't it? So that he would have a good idea of what he's talking about?

I'm not trying to agree with any position here, but just ask a question/make an observation.[/SIZE]

Close only counts in horsehoes and handgrenades. Does he have a good idea what he is talking about? Should we accept his conclusions over the teams of definitely qualified scholars who translated the NIV and the NET?

If this guy, with these qualifications, or lack thereof, was trashing the BOM and LDS, would you be so quick to defend him? Silly me.

I had a class mate once, in grad school, shortly before graduation he told me, "I have spent 4 years here and I have not learned a thing. All I wanted was this piece of paper, because my church requires it." He took the "required" number of courses in Biblical Hebrew and Greek, and he was officially "comp"[etent] in both languages, but he "did not learn a thing."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]But he who does nothing to save that one, before they become lost, or to bring them back, when they had the chance to do so, will also answer to God.[/SIZE]

Quick someone call 911. I think I'm having a heart attack.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.​

 

[Merzbow]

Since you are the one making the claim, the burden is on you to present the evidence. So you run out and buy the correct version of the NIV, scan it, and post the image here.

No, the burden of proof is on YOU. YOU made the claim that 'this is what the original Greek says'. Not the NIV translators. The translators of the ESV, who are an equally distinguished group, did NOT put the 'now' in there. The same with the NRSV. Are you claiming that the ESV and NRSV translators are wrong? You're the one who claimed special knowledge of the original Greek, I did not since I don't know it (but have just ordered the books to teach it to myself). According to your claim, the ESV and NRSV are wrong. Back up YOUR claim with an exegesis and translation of the Greek.

Mr. Alter - how about you explain exactly what you meant when you said:

NIV 1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [present tense], so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[Note, this is how it reads in the Greek.]

Can you read Greek? Then how do you have any authority to make that claim? Retract the claim or prove you know Greek and can provide your own translation.

Meanwhile, my previous post, twenty seven passages Jesus speaking on the eternal, unending, forever, condition of the unrepentant. Ignored! Unanswered.

(staff edit) You've already admitted that passages must be interpreted to establish meaning - remember 'spirits'? All you did was list 27 passages, accompanied by no analysis. You insult Jesus himself by implying that his words deserve to be given no thought to be understood in their full glory. If you want to actually have a discussion, pick 2 or 3 or them, and explain in detail exactly how each passage backs up your soteriology, then I'll think about responding.

My previous posts, Greek language resources on the meaning of Greek words translated, forever, unending, eternal, in the NT. Ignored! Unanswered.

Answered. 'Aionios' is used in places where it CANNOT mean eternal, such a Romans 16:25. Taken from the online Crosswalk Greek Lexicon:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Greek > aionios > KJV Verse Count[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]KJV Verse Count[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Greek Word: Aijwvnioß
Transliterated Word: aionios
Book to Display: Romans
Verse Count: 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 2:7[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 5:21[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Ro 6:22[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Ro 6:23[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 16:25[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 16:26[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith[/FONT]

'Since the world began'. Boy, that doesn't sound like eternal, does it? Literally, 'aionios' is an adjective formed from the noun 'aion', meaning 'age' (or lifetime, generation, etc., Greek dictionaries list all these possible definitions), so literally, it is 'of the ages'. 'Of the ages' has no inevitable English meaning, and yes can be rendered as eternal depending on context, but all I need to do to prove that it doesn't NECESSARILY have to be so is to show you Ro 16:25.

In places where the context does not demand 'eternal' vs. another meaning, like the Matthew 25:46, one can render 'of the ages' however one pleases, even just as 'of the ages', 1500 years of Roman Catholic conservative theology notwithstanding. Now if you want to actually present a reasoned response to this, instead of 16,000 copy/paste selective quotes from dictionaries, please do. Otherwise, I'm done wasting my time.

 

[timlamb]

("Otherwise, I am done wasting my time." by Merzbow)

Good Merzbow, After taking a fresh look, I would say we have all been wasting our time for days now. We have not brought out the best in each other, we have dug into our respective sides firing vollies of verbal abuse on each other. We have not set an example nor have we Glorified God.
For those who do not believe in eternal punishment, those of us who do are in no more danger than the most evil person, we don't have to agree with you to reap the same rewards.
But please have patience with those of us who believe you must be born again in faith, in this life, to have eternity with God. We fear for the souls of those who do not know and trust the Lord. Please forgive us if in our passion, we forget to dispence grace.

I pray that we all put our personal wisdom aside, and seek the Holy Spirit on this issue. Truth does not come like a falling rock, but like a gentle rain. We must stand in it long enough to get wet to even begin to understand anything.
I see nothing more to gain from this arguing.
God Bless,
timlamb

 

[Merzbow]

("Otherwise, I am done wasting my time." by Merzbow)

Good Merzbow, After taking a fresh look, I would say we have all been wasting our time for days now. We have not brought out the best in each other, we have dug into our respective sides firing vollies of verbal abuse on each other. We have not set an example nor have we Glorified God.
For those who do not believe in eternal punishment, those of us who do are in no more danger than the most evil person, we don't have to agree with you to reap the same rewards.
But please have patience with those of us who believe you must be born again in faith, in this life, to have eternity with God. We fear for the souls of those who do not know and trust the Lord. Please forgive us if in our passion, we forget to dispence grace.

I pray that we all put our personal wisdom aside, and seek the Holy Spirit on this issue. Truth does not come like a falling rock, but like a gentle rain. We must stand in it long enough to get wet to even begin to understand anything.
I see nothing more to gain from this arguing.
God Bless,
timlamb

timlamb, I agree. The methods of certain posters (not you) really push my buttons, and I respond in kind instead of taking the Christ's own advice. Time to retire from this thread, hope to see you in other threads though.

 

[gort]

Ekletos partial quote:

Elliot&#8217;s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios&#8212;it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

Hmmmm.....why does this definition seem to differ than what Elliots commentary has to say?

aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1141674050-1728.html

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If we are to use the word to mean a "limited duration", then the righteous have a "limited duration" of life eternal?

Do you have Scripture that clearly shows the LOF is limited in its duration?

Is satan in the LOF for a limited duration also, or is he excluded?

Got Scripture that shows this?

thanx

<><

 

[gort]

Of course you are reading strongs definition who is also inclined to contradict himself a few times.

Why not go and get you a Wigrims Greek-English concordance and just see for yourself how much confusion translators have caused.

So you are saying Wigrims has it perfected?

Are you saying the sources in which I gave you don't line up with your Theology??

It's not a matter of "my theology". It's about what the Word of God has to say, not me, nor you.

You quote:
If we are to use the word to mean a "limited duration", then the righteous have a "limited duration" of life eternal?

This is the oldest argument Ever!!

My question still stands.

Is there anything in the vicinity of the Scripture I quoted that would delineate between the two?

Is there anything at all in Scripture that shows there will be an end to the LOF??

thanx

<><

 

[gort]

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Eternal punishment (kolasin aiwnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazw, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mwria (vengeance) and kolasiß. But the same adjective aiwnioß is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwnioß (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwneß twn aiwnwn).


http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commenta...?book=mt&chapter=025&verse=046&next=&prev=042

 

[Children of Light]

That's too bad. I wonder what would have happened if Abraham felt that way when God told him to sacrifice Isaac?????

Mac

Yes but Abraham knew that God could bring Isaac back from the dead, hell is for all eternity, death by sacrifice isnt death for all eternity.

 

[Children of Light]

Phoebe Ann, how refreshing to hear, a simple statement of faith. I am sure that made God happier than any ten pages of this banter.
I remain firm, and in fact more comfident than ever, that the only path to eternity with God, is through the shed blood of our savior, Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:7-14
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, becomming like Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not concider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."
If I have failed to help make clear God's word and the all important sacrifice of our Lord, it is I that have failed. To all who live and believe by faith, hold to the truth of Christs sacrifice. Those who choose to ignore the Holy Spirit, will not listen to you or understand the scripture; they do not seek truth. Turn your attention to those who seek God's Truth.
In Christ,
timlamb

Oh I see, guys if anyone ever questions God, or has the slightest difficulty in believing one scripture over another lets call him a deceiver leading the other sheep astry! And lets join the bandwagon of the supposed individuals who are obeying God! But are they really obeying God or are they sycophants?
Im sure the Pharisees and their buddies hated Jesus when he told them to follow the spirit of the bible and not just what they read!!!!!!!!!