Hell is not permanent.

[Soul Searcher]

How anyone can read the Bible and not see, recognize, understand, that there is a horrible place they call hell and ever able to sleep at night is beyond me.

Ok so not believeing there is some horrible place like this should keep me awake, but believing it exists should allow me to sleep better...

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Ok so not believeing there is some horrible place like this should keep me awake, but believing it exists should allow me to sleep better[/SIZE]...

Yeah right dood. As if that was the only thing I said. Did you happen to see two fairly long posts attached to that one sentence? That's the same way you read your Bible, you see only what you want to see, read only what you want to read, believe only what you want to believe.

My point which you intentionally missed or misrerpresented, was deliberately misquoting, misrepresenting, or ignoring God's word should keep a person up at night.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yeah right dood. As if that was the only thing I said. Did you happen to see two fairly long posts attached to that one sentence?

Yes I saw the long cut and paste job but I stopped reading after the part I responded too.

btw if you really wanted to make a point you could have just said so, a sentence or two will usually do.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Yes I saw the long cut and paste job but I stopped reading after the part I responded too.

btw if you really wanted to make a point you could have just said so, a sentence or two will usually do[/SIZE].

"cut and paste" implies stealing someone else's work, without giving proper credit, and presenting it as one's own. Is that what you are accusing me of?

Everything I posted is the result of my own research. I want the truth, so I own most of the references I cited, BDB, BAGD, TDNT, TWOT, Louw-Nida, etc. Unlike other folk who ignore and avoid anything and everything that proves them wrong, as you have just done, and scours the 'net looking or anything written, by anybody, anywhere, just as long as it seems to support their assumptions and presuppositions.

By admitting that you ignored the bulk of my post you are acknowledging that you don't give a damn about context. Again just the way you read the Bible. A little piece here and little snippet there.

I made a point. I posted every passage I could find in the N.T., where Jesus addressed the final state of the unrepentant. Which neither you nor any other person with their anti-Bible, anti-hell, rants has ever bothered to read or address. And I supported that point with references from acknowledged language/historical resources.

I don't really care what you imagine, think, suppose, assume, wish, like, want, desire, hope, presume, etc., that hell is or is not. And I don't care what keeps you up at night. I am interested in what the Bible says. Can you address that?

 

[Soul Searcher]

"cut and paste" implies stealing someone else's work, without giving proper credit, and presenting it as one's own. Is that what you are accusing me of?

No, I am not accusing you of anything. I assumed that you did not set at your keyboard and type all that into the text box. If you actually took the time to type all that into this little text box then I was wrong and I am sorry. but if you did copy and paste from anywhere (including your own work) then the statement is correct.

As for reading and responding to all that stuff you pasted, I mean posted, Why should I bother? You start by impling that I have not or do not read the bible, then you say you are not interested in my opinion so why bother.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]As for reading and responding to all that stuff you pasted, I mean posted, Why should I bother? You start by impling that I have not or do not read the bible, then you say you are not interested in my opinion so why bother[/SIZE].

Without scriptural support why should I, or anyone else, be interested in what you say about scriptural matters? I have an opinion, you have an opinion, the guy down the road has an opinion. Every Jim Jones and David Koresh in the world has an opinion. As I said, it don't matter, the only thing that matters is what God said. Which OBTW you have never addressed.

I implied you did not read the Bible because you breezed right by 27 passages of scripture, which address this topic, without even acknowledging them, and post some little platitude about not sleeping at night, implying that anyone who does not agree with your opinion, and actually believes the verses I posted, is callous, insensitive, thoughtless, merciless, heartless, etc.

I posted those same scriptures twice in this thread, nobody, but nobody, including you, has so much as commented on them, either time. And you admitted that you did not even read them, I rest my case.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Even with scriptual support and external support for the scriptual support we would still be giving what amounts to our opinions. Because when we choose which scripture to post, we choose which translation to use, we choose which outside sources to use to support our "opinion" of what we think the bible is saying.

If you think your opinion is the only one that is correct then I have some scripture for you to ponder.

Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

 

[timlamb]

You Quote:
I too, cried, just at the thought of loosing one of my girls to satan

This is what I am amazed at by people.
These Quotes that have no truth to them whatsoever?

Lose someone to Satan!!!

I didn't know of anywhere in the whole entire bible that it ever mentions that you will "Lose" anyone to Satan.
Sounds like "Polytheism' to me
Good God and Bad God.

You Quote:
I have suffered terrible mental anguish to the point where I thought even hell would be welcome, with a clear head I know better. The memory of that suffering only serves to make more gratefull for the gift of salvation.

Like I said before Tim
The Fear of Hell is the threat that people believe, and then turn to Christ (Out of Fear of Hell) as their savior from Hell and you prove this by your statement Tim.
But in an Earlier post you state Otherwise didn't you.

You Quote:
and we must do all we can to reach all who will listen

"No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draw him to me"

According to your view Tim If all who don't listen to what "Christians" proclaim then their is not one thing God can do, because God is bound by mans "Freewill"
and so they are most confidently going to Hell because they didn't respond to another man's proclamation.

But the scripture above flat out contradicts Christianity's claim.

You Quote:
let us not loose our focus on what really matters, a loving God

Who would Allow one of his Children to suffer in a place (He made) endlessly. And all for not "Receiving" the Gift that keeps on giving, although most of humanity has never even heard of this "Gift" that you must receive.

Now thats what I call "Love"


4Love is not patient, love is not kind and is jealous; love does brag and is arrogant,
5does act unbecomingly; it does seek its own, is provoked, does take into account a wrong suffered,
6does rejoice in unrighteousness, but not rejoice with the truth;
7 does not bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things. 8Love will fail;

According to Most this is the way this passage of scripture is believed.

Ekletos, I grow weary of being on the defencive with you.
When an athlete leaves one team for more money or because he believes them to be better, I would say, the first tean lost that person to the second one. It is a competition in it's self. Satan competes for your soul. For you to chose satan over Jesus, would be to "loose" you to satan. Pretty simple stuff.
I said I didn't choose God to save me from hell, I stated that at that low point hell would have been welcome, but in my present, "clearer" state of mind, I know that I was wrong to think that hell would have been preferable to anything I could suffer on earth. Now that I know Jesus, the thought of being separated from Him is the most terrible thing I can think of.
"Go out unto all the world and preach the Gospel". God doesn't need my help, but I desire to serve my Lord. No one comes to the father through me, only through God working in me, and that is the most wonderful, beautiful thing I have ever experianced.
"My sheep know my voice", Romans 8:12,+
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13; For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God. 15; for you did not recieve a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you recieved the spirit of sonship. And by Him we cry 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
We must accept Christ to become His children, we gain that right through the Holy Spirit.
I think I am being quite patient,
timlamb

 

[Merzbow]

We must accept Christ to become His children, we gain that right through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 4:4-6 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT]Game, set, match for the universalist team. We see that one must have faith in Christ to enter heaven, that eventually all will have faith in Christ, and that the gospel is preached even to the dead (which means that those who don't profess faith in this life will have the opportunity in the afterlife).

Now I suppose our resident theologian Dr. Alter will want to list a dozen quotes from Greek dictionaries in an attempt to show that 'dead' doesn't really mean 'dead'. Or will he?

 

[Children of Light]

Every guy has an opinion, every David Koresh down the street has an opinion, what else matters but what the bible says?....
Well Der Alter, I think it matters a lot what others think. I know this to be true b/c when I pray to God I am not listing off bible verse after bible verse, I tend to mediate on a verse and then attempt to mentally speak to God as I would anyone else.
Also I enjoy going to bible class and couples class at church. Do we all sit around and list verse after verse? No we try to talk about things in a scriptural way, and of course we read scripture, but I for one am interested in others opinions on matters and how they live their lives. If someone during a class continually quoted scripture and never really talked about their own experiences I think it wouldnt be real.

I have one more question and then will leave it at that, b/c I realize that I am very emotional about this topic, and that is witnessed by my post being reveiwed.

Didnt Jesus say that whoever tries to save his life will lose it, and he that loses his life will gain it
There is no greater love than for a man to give up his life for his brother.

Believe me if there is a hell, I for sure do not want to go there. But at the same time how could I or any of you for that matter go to heaven when you know that your existance there would be part and parcel of the torments of your brothers that are now in hell?

Would anyone here be willing to give up their eternity in heaven to spend eternity in hell if it meant that there child in hell would spend eternity in heaven?

 

[timlamb]

Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 4:4-6 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT]Game, set, match for the universalist team. We see that one must have faith in Christ to enter heaven, that eventually all will have faith in Christ, and that the gospel is preached even to the dead (which means that those who don't profess faith in this life will have the opportunity in the afterlife).

Now I suppose our resident theologian Dr. Alter will want to list a dozen quotes from Greek dictionaries in an attempt to show that 'dead' doesn't really mean 'dead'. Or will he?

Merzbow, you are playing a dangerous game and you misunderstand the rules. Your rules have no loosers, even those who hate and defy the Judge win and all the efforts of the coach matter not, according to you.
Believing that Jesus is Lord is more than believing He lived and died, it is knowing why, and knowing he is savior.

Every tongue that ever lived will know that Jesus Christ is Lord, those in heaven will praise Him, and those in hell will curse Him, but they will know.

1 peter 4:6, interpreted by you, contradicts the bible thus making the scriptures null and void. Christian faith interprets it as it is in the Amplified Bible, "For this reason the good news (the Gospel) was preached {in their lifetime} even to the dead,...".
Anyone can win the "game set and match" when they make up their own rules.

Children of Light, I hurt for you as I read your words. You are living in torment. You can't change the past. I believe in heaven and hell and the salvation of Jesus Christ, but I would never presume, or assume, that someone went to hell. You speak of changing places with a child to get them into heaven, that is what Jesus did for all who desire forgiveness, and relief from their torment. You do not have the ability to save any soul but your own, by choosing to follow Jesus. No one will gain from you losing your soul to the evil one. What ever you choose to do now will not change the fate of one who has died, focus on the living, and the living God. You can have truth and peace!
God Bless you, and heal your pain,
timlamb

 

[Soul Searcher]

Merzbow, you are playing a dangerous game and you misunderstand the rules. Your rules have no loosers, even those who hate and defy the Judge win and all the efforts of the coach matter not, according to you.
Believing that Jesus is Lord is more than believing He lived and died, it is knowing why, and knowing he is savior.

Surely you don't think this is a game that must have a winner and a loser do you?

Every tongue that ever lived will know that Jesus Christ is Lord, those in heaven will praise Him, and those in hell will curse Him, but they will know.

This is not what I read in the bible.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth , and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.

You will notice that according to the scripture none are cursing, all are blessing.

1 peter 4:6, interpreted by you, contradicts the bible thus making the scriptures null and void. Christian faith interprets it as it is in the Amplified Bible, "For this reason the good news (the Gospel) was preached {in their lifetime} even to the dead,...".
Anyone can win the "game set and match" when they make up their own rules.

Two comments, One even if one piece of scripture was proven to be totally invalid that does not make the other scriptures null and invalid.
If you have a basket of apples and you find a worm in one of these apples would you throw the whole basket away?

Two, See 1 Peter 3:18-19 where it talks about the spirits in prison.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Believe me if there is a hell, I for sure do not want to go there. But at the same time how could I or any of you for that matter go to heaven when you know that your existance there would be part and parcel of the torments of your brothers that are now in hell?

I share your thoughts on this matter.

Would anyone here be willing to give up their eternity in heaven to spend eternity in hell if it meant that there child in hell would spend eternity in heaven?

I do not have any children myself but I do have a mother and a sister who both have passed on recently. I do not believe in hell so I do not worry about this. To me the whole concept of eternal torment is beyond reason and surely not what any moral being would inflict on any creature for any reason.

If I thought people were really being tortured there for all eternity I would be freaking out, constantly. I don't think I could ever find a way to truly love something that could subject any creature to eternal torment.

Would I change places? I doubt that I would have the courage to do so. Instead I would be ashamed of myself and feel guilty for eternity, in essence I would be in my own private little hell within heaven and never know true happiness.

All that aside, I know in my heart that these doctorines of eternal torment are not true and deep down I have always known this.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] share your thoughts on this matter.


[SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not have any children [SIZE=+1]myself[/SIZE] but [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do have a mother and a sister who both have passed on recently. [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not believe in hell so [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not worry about this. To [SIZE=+1]me[/SIZE] the whole concept of eternal torment is beyond reason and surely not what any moral being would inflict on any creature for any reason.

If [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] thought people were really being tortured there for all eternity [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be freaking out, constantly. [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] don't think [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] could ever find a way to truly love something that could subject any creature to eternal torment.

Would [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] change places? [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] doubt that [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE]would have the courage to do so. Instead [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be ashamed of [SIZE=+1]myself[/SIZE] and feel guilty for eternity, in essence [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be in my own private little hell within heaven and never know true happiness.

All that aside, [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] know in my heart that these doctorines of eternal torment are not true and deep down [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] have always known this.

Note, the problem with this diatribe. It is not about God or His word. It is about self, I, I, I, me, me, me, myself, myself, myself. Not one passage of scripture. Just the assumptions, presuppositions, and personal feelings of the poster.

I don't know about you but God did not ask me when He set down His word. And I have no intention of arguing with God or against His word. Job got put in his place.

 

[Der Alte]

[...][SIZE=-1]This is not what I read in the bible.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth , and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.

You will notice that according to the scripture none are cursing, all are blessing.[/SIZE]

Still ignoring the [SIZE=+1]27[/SIZE] passages spoken by Jesus, that I have posted twice.

Your one out-of-context scripture does not say what you think it does.

And every creature which is in [present tense] heaven, and on [present tense] the earth, and under [present tense] the earth , and such as are in [present tense] the sea, and all that are in [present tense] them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever​

This refers to those who were then in the places mentioned. It says nothing about those already in hell. Such as the rich man in Luke 16, who was already in Hades being tormented in the flames. Hades from which there is no escape, Lk 16:26.

[SIZE=-1]Two, See 1 Peter 3:18-19 where it talks about the spirits in prison.[/SIZE]

Prison is never called hell in scripture and hell is never called prison.

Jesus commission was, in the Spirit, in his earthly ministry, in addition to preaching to the poor, the blind, and the oppressed, to preach freedom for the prisoners.

You will note that preaching or proclaiming "freedom for the prisoners" is between preaching to the poor and to the blind. There was no two pronged ministry, one during his lifetime, and one after his death.

Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,​

Anybody can prove almost anything in the Bible by selectively quoting scripture, out-of-context.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."​

Ten thousand eons times ten thousand eons from now God's eternal, unchanging word will still say, "no rest day or night," "no rest day or night, "no rest day or night," for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 4:4-6 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

Game, set, match for the universalist team. We see that one must have faith in Christ to enter heaven, that eventually all will have faith in Christ, and that the gospel is preached even to the dead (which means that those who don't profess faith in this life will have the opportunity in the afterlife).

Now I suppose our resident theologian Dr. Alter will want to list a dozen quotes from Greek dictionaries in an attempt to show that 'dead' doesn't really mean 'dead'. Or will he?[/SIZE][/FONT]

NIV 1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [present tense], so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[Note, this is how it reads in the Greek.]

Mat 8:22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."​

Game, set, and match, indeed. Just more kneejerk out-of-context scriptures, while ignoring, not only the 27 passages spoken by Jesus, I have posted twice but, many, many, other passages as well.

Luk 20:42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." (Ps 110:1, Matt 5:35, Act 2:35, Heb 1:13, 10:13)

1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I [SIZE=+1]never[/SIZE] knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'​

Those enemies under Jesus' feet will be saying "Lord, Lord" but then it will be too late.

And when Paul wrote Philp 2:9-11, he did not have amnesia and forget he wrote 1 Cor 15:4,5, and he also didn't forget, Ps 110:1, Matt 5:35, or Act 2:35.

If you have what it takes to engage in a discussion with me, then do so, don't ignore my posts and make snide comments about me.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Your one out-of-context scripture does not say what you think it does.

And every creature which is in [present tense] heaven, and on [present tense] the earth, and under [present tense] the earth , and such as are in [present tense] the sea, and all that are in [present tense] them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever​

Ah but that is YOUR OPINION now isn't it? Since this book was written long before we were born and this event has not yet happened then we must consider either that the present tense presented is actually future tense to us [will be present tense when the events happen but future tense to us here and now] or that it is false.

As for the spirits in prison part I do not want to debate this as my knowledge is weak on this matter, but I do have a question related to it.

It Jesus did not preach to the physically dead and belief in Jesus is the only way to avoid hell then what is the fate of all those who lived in the thousands of years prior to his death?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Still ignoring the [SIZE=+1]27[/SIZE] passages spoken by Jesus, that I have posted twice.

FYI I have read all those passages many many times. I did not and do not ignore them I simply choose not to go into great detail in responding to them.

 

[Children of Light]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


So Der Alter or anyone else who believes in hell, if your loved child's smoke of torment rises forever and ever, and if it ever reaches your nose in heaven, will you even care? Or will you just forget about it?

 

[Merzbow]

NIV 1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [present tense], so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[Note, this is how it reads in the Greek.]
​

This is where I show that you don't know a word of Greek, and are deliberately trying to mislead us. Here is a Yale philosophy professor who knows classical Greek like the BACK OF HIS HAND commenting on this very passage:

(Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead," confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible -- users of NIV's other than the NIV Study Bible don't get this warning -- that "the word 'now' does not occur in the Greek," and explaining that the reason they've added it is that, for reasons coming from another part of the Bible, not even in the book of I Peter, they believe that there are no further chances after death. Now, the case they give in that note for the doctrine of no further chances is hopelessly weak. (We'll encounter it below.) But put that aside for the moment. The more pressing point here is that this practice of doctoring a translation to protect the theological positions that the translators happen to hold on controversial issues is deplorable. The much more responsible NRSV, true to its general character, more reliably translates this passage as, "For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead." This better translation leaves the matter of whether "the dead" refers to people who were dead when they were preached to or rather to those who were dead at the time of the writing of I Peter about as open as it is in the original Greek. The NIV translators, on the other hand, for no respectable reason, add a word to close down the reading, left open in the Greek, that doesn't best serve their own theological purposes, though it seems the more natural of the two readings.)

pantheon*yale*edu/%7Ekd47/univ*htm

You may have been able to get away with this before, but not anymore 'dood'.

And 'spirits' don't live in an Earthly prison. You're trying to INTERPRET that passage away. Imagine that - INTERPRETING the scriptures according to context, philosophy, theology, and reason. I still have yet to fathom the reason why so many people strive so hard in insisting that their God is a sadistic torturer when the scriptures heavily imply the opposite - and are at most ambiguous.