Hell is not permanent.

[Ekletos]

Ekletos, yes I believe the book of revelation to be quite literal. In the old testament, the crucifiction of Jesus was discribed in detail, long before crucifiction was practiced. It was prophesied, but the writer had no trouble understanding the concept, so the discription was accruate.
I believe John saw some things he had no words or understanding to describe, such as airplanes shooting missles. I believe as the prophacies come true, we will understand better what John meant, what he saw.
Yes, Revelation is a glimps into the future and eternity.
It discribes many things in great detail, such as the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, chapter 21.
Do we have to understand things before we believe, no, we are talking about God, the all knowing creator, we can't begin to understand all that goes on, or all that is written. I only know that I understand more than I did when I did not seek God.
John 10:4,27
"...and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice." "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
I try to listen for the voice of God, gaining understanding through the Holy Spirit, not my own wisdom.
I believe we should take The bible for what it says. Put any part into question you put it all into question.
The Book of Revelation is probably the least understood of any book, but because some parts are hard to understand, does not mean we can dismiss it all. Rev. 22:18,19 says it best. "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book."
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. It is a gift to be accepted, or death. Those who refuse to believe and turn away are not His sheep. And eternity without God is what awaits them; what ever you think that is, it is not a pleasant thought.
I have some ideas that I don't share with anyone because they cannot be backed up by scripture, they just help me understand. Many things I don't understand but I don't worry because someday I will have that knowledge. For now, I want to live for the Lord, for God, do what He says I should the best I can, and trust and have faith in the promise of eternal life, which is more than I deserve.
timlamb

If you believe it to be "Literal" Tim Has your Eye, Hand, or foot ever offended you??? If it has why haven't you cut it off?

Have you ate the Flesh, and drank the blood of Christ?
If not you have no life abiding in you.

Is there a "Literal" Bottomless Pit. How can a Pit be bottomless???

Have you ever called anyone a fool??

Do you hate your mother, father, son, or daughter so you can be Jesus' Student?

Which one do you declare to be literal, and symbolical Tim???

 

[gort]

Children of Light quotes:

So when we talk of hell lets not be so self righteous it is really pathetic to talk, oh well hes dead, he didnt believe in Jesus as his eternal savior, oh well hes gone to hell now, bye, bye.

I mean if my child grows up and he doesnt believe in God, or Jesus and he dies, am I going to believe he is in hell? I will become Buddhist before I allow myself to go to heaven and have my memory of him be erased so that I can live in bliss in heaven and forget about him and his eternal torments in hell.

Sure you can say well your interpreting the bible to suit your own needs. I may be. I just dont see in my heart how I can go to heaven and know, or allow my thoughts of my son to be erased or have an artificial thought of my son be implanted in my head so that I can live in heaven in bliss. I MEAN COME ON, IS THAT HEAVEN?
If that is heaven, I dont want any part of it at all!!!
Send me to hell, if it ends up my son is in hell, send me too..I dont want him to think for all eternity that I am in heaven while he is there.. forget that.. no friggin way..

Maybe Im wrong on this, teach me, but dont give me no friggin lesson on greek or give me so two pager that goes into some esoteric garbage. Give me scripture, talk to me from the heart, like Jesus did.

Yes, you are completely wrong on this. There is a Lake of Fire and eternal torment. If you were understanding of your sins before a Holy God you would understand that you do deserve every bit of it.

You would also understand that God hates sin, and the penalty for this is eternal death. And you would also know that God is just and requires this in His Holy Righteousness.

But you would also understand, in time, just how much God loves His creation. It was after all, the Father who put the Son on the Cross, who knew no sin, to make payment for that which we could not do of ourselves.

You would also understand that the Son did this voluntarily, because He loved you first. He died for you.

There is no greater love than this.

You should ask God to give you understanding of the Scripture that says 'He desires all to come to repentence.' Do you not know that He works every day to bring about His will, that all come to repentence? How did He work in you? Do you not think He is working His ways to bring this about?

God desires Mercy and mans salvation much much more than He desires to send someone to Hell forever. He's not looking to destroy, He wants to save.

But His Justice and Righteousness requires a penalty for sin. His Son paid that in full, for whosever believes and follows the Son.

But for those that willfully reject, neglect, and trample upon His desire will spend an eternity if Fire.

Biblical Scripture is quite clear on this. It should light a fire under your heiny and motivate you, not so much in the eternal fire aspect, but to try to bring understanding to others who foo foo Gods love for sinful man, who don't even have a clue as to the Greatest love story and love affair to be found if one were to only get down on their knees and cry out to the Lord to be saved.

And the Lord will save those will do this. He promised. And His word endures forever.

<><

 

[Children of Light]

Daneel, or anyone else,
you would be willing to go to heaven even if you know your child is in hell for all eternity.. and you child is in hell for all eternity and knows that you are in heaven, so in fact your existence in heaven is a cause of your childs eternal torment?
Your ok with that?
What are we thinking people, this is insane, is it not?
Having had Jewish friends I have asked them for their beliefs in hell, and they claimed that Jewish belief is that not of an eternal hell.
If that was the belief of the Jews, then Jesus' death brought into being a choice to join God in heaven for ever, but now with the acceptance that going to heaven means that you accept that the brother/sister/son/daughter next to you would spend eternity in hell. You are willing to go to heaven while knowing the person next to you is going to hell.
Muslims think that Christians are headed to hell and Christians think Muslims are going to hell, it is really ridiculous, because the people thinking this way, if they really know in their minds what hell was or could be, wouldnt be talking such garbage about others going to hell, they would be petitioning God day and night to get rid of hell because there are going to be innumeral individuals going to hell, because a number of unbelievers have already died and a number more die each second.. I mean right now someone has entered the kingdom of hell as we speak a nonbeliever died.. opps oh well go to hell now, bye, bye. And we debate such nonsense while at this minute someone is supposedly going to hell. What does our typing even matter, who friggin cares, I mean one person going to hell is enough for me to realize that geez that is big big stuff, hell is hugely important topic and the....
I think the minute someone realizes that hell exists it ceases to exist for that individual.
I dont see how hell could hold any soul.
The need to get out would over time in my mind become so strong that nothing could hold the sould from escaping....At least that is my hope...

 

[gort]

Daneel, or anyone else,
you would be willing to go to heaven even if you know your child is in hell for all eternity.. and you child is in hell for all eternity and knows that you are in heaven, so in fact your existence in heaven is a cause of your childs eternal torment?
Your ok with that?

I see that you put no trust in God whatsoever.

Have a nice day.

<><

 

[Children of Light]

This isnt about my trust in God.
This is about interpreting the bible.
Since so many people here seem to be strict adherents to the hell story, I just want to know if people are ok with their child being tormented in hell forever?
I know of plenty of Christians whose children are not Christians themselves. So then according to some peoples interpretation on this thread, then those parents will be in heaven and their child will be in hell, fully aware of their parents place in heaven, so this child's parents will be part of their own child's eternal torment.
So I am going along with the interpretation that some have of hell, if your arent willing to follow your logic to its conclusion, then it has nothing to do with my trust in
God.
I think I would have less trust in God, if I blindly believed in hell, and just went around believing and wildly telling people, oh that one died, he died a nonbeliever he goes to hell, or your son died a nonbeliever he goes to hell now, have a nice day.
I mean dont we have to diligently search out the truth and doesnt that diligence ask us to follow out our beliefs to their natural endpoint and then see if we can still believe? I dont know I am asking you? Can you follow God even if your son or daughter goes to hell for all eternity? Can I? Are we supposed to?

 

[EchoPneuma]

This isnt about my trust in God.
This is about interpreting the bible.
Since so many people here seem to be strict adherents to the hell story, I just want to know if people are ok with their child being tormented in hell forever?
I know of plenty of Christians whose children are not Christians themselves. So then according to some peoples interpretation on this thread, then those parents will be in heaven and their child will be in hell, fully aware of their parents place in heaven, so this child's parents will be part of their own child's eternal torment.
So I am going along with the interpretation that some have of hell, if your arent willing to follow your logic to its conclusion, then it has nothing to do with my trust in
God.
I think I would have less trust in God, if I blindly believed in hell, and just went around believing and wildly telling people, oh that one died, he died a nonbeliever he goes to hell, or your son died a nonbeliever he goes to hell now, have a nice day.
I mean dont we have to diligently search out the truth and doesnt that diligence ask us to follow out our beliefs to their natural endpoint and then see if we can still believe? I dont know I am asking you? Can you follow God even if your son or daughter goes to hell for all eternity? Can I? Are we supposed to?

I used to believe in an eternal hell...for a very long time I believed in it, because it was what I was taught to believe as a Southern Baptist. Then I began to study it on my own and prayerfully search out the truth from God. I don't believe in it any longer. I believe that the punishment of fire is for an "age" ....and only God knows how long that age is....but it will ultimately result in the soul being reconciled back to Him. That's what the bible says and that's what I believe now.

Romans 5 lays it out plainly:

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

Show me one person who will not be given (as a result of the righteous act of Jesus) "justification that brings life" and I will show you the person who makes that passage a lie. ALL means ALL....not some.

I hear what you're saying.....

 

[gort]

This isnt about my trust in God.
This is about interpreting the bible.
Since so many people here seem to be strict adherents to the hell story, I just want to know if people are ok with their child being tormented in hell forever?

Of course this is about trust in God. And of course, I'm worried about my chilren, my neighbors, my friends, and you. Am I going to think I can change hearts and minds? Of course not. God does that.

Simply put, I can fervently pray to God about my kids, and ask Him, fully knowing that He will answer my prayers, because this is inline with His will. I will give my worries to God, as best I can.

I know of plenty of Christians whose children are not Christians themselves. So then according to some peoples interpretation on this thread, then those parents will be in heaven and their child will be in hell, fully aware of their parents place in heaven, so this child's parents will be part of their own child's eternal torment.

My youngest daughter does'nt believe in God, but she believes in Jesus. No.1 son got baptized with me. I heard his confession of faith. He does'nt live much by the faith today, but I know that God will knock him upside the head one day.

No.2 son I prayed for and today he likes to go to church, and looks forward to youth group.

So I am going along with the interpretation that some have of hell, if your arent willing to follow your logic to its conclusion, then it has nothing to do with my trust in
God.

There is nothing to interpret whether there is everlasting fire or there isn't. This verse says it all.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I think I would have less trust in God, if I blindly believed in hell, and just went around believing and wildly telling people, oh that one died, he died a nonbeliever he goes to hell, or your son died a nonbeliever he goes to hell now, have a nice day.

Wildy telling people? As in an air of casualness about the prospect of some going to the LOF forever?

God forbid!

I mean dont we have to diligently search out the truth and doesnt that diligence ask us to follow out our beliefs to their natural endpoint and then see if we can still believe? I dont know I am asking you? Can you follow God even if your son or daughter goes to hell for all eternity? Can I? Are we supposed to?

Of course we must be diligent, and follow what Gods says and NOT our beliefs on a subject. If we don't believe what God says, then we're just whittling our own little wooden idol and serving that and not God.

Can you follow God even if your son or daughter goes to hell for all eternity? Can I? Are we supposed to?

Do you teach your kids? Instruct them in Gods ways? Answer their questions? doubts? Rebuke them? Correct them? Do all the things you can do? Fervently pray for them?

We don't know who is going to hell forever. We don't see all the things that God does in others lives, even up to the last moment of breath.

While you're walking, always insist the glass is half full. Always.


Every month in hell, all the demons get their subscription to Hunters magazine. A magazine focused on the true believers of God. Every month there's a new article on target points to aim for, to shoot those fiery arrows to where they do the most damage.

Focal points are as follows:

1. Where the belt of truth should be, but isn't.
2. Where the breastplate of righteousness should be, but isn't.
3. Where the sandals of peace for the gospel should be, but are'nt.
4. Where the shield of faith should be, but isn't.
5. Where the helmut of salvation should be, but isn't.
6. Where the sword of the Spirit should be, but isn't.


<><

 

[Children of Light]

People on this forum are ok with believing that people will spend eternity in hell, that I guess is my ultimate question.
And if these people that believe in hell, please describe a moment in your life where you felt as if you were in hell, so that you could at least slightly empathize with the plight that will embrace some people at the end times. I mean if you cant really understand or experience the magnitude of torture that will occur how in the world can you believe and allow yourself to accept this? I mean an immeasurable number of people died unbelievers and therefore may be going to hell. Hell is watching a dog get hit by a car, and watchiing it suffer on the ground. Hell is unfathomable. Yet people believe in it so easily, are so easy to accept it as truth, are so easy to accept it at all. Why? Because God said so? I dont understand you people. People may have to eternally experience hell. Do you understand the implications of this? You can come up with all your fancy interpretation of things that you want, I dont care. Unless you have experienced it you shouldnt so easily be willing to accept its existance, or at least not fervently question it all the days of your life.
I just dont understand the quick acceptance and adherance to this. Is it that some people have lived such sheltered lives where they havent experienced the tremendous pain that some have had to unfortunately deal with during their lives? I dont understand......Maybe you shouldnt be so quick to disprove me...

 

[DanielJamesSimon]

If I may stick my nose in.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but:

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

Let me ask:

Can you give me one verse in the Bible which actually says that the punishment of each individual soul will be eternal? The Bible mentions eternal life many times, but usually when it's talking about the wicked it talks about the eternal fire. Does the fire being eternal make the punishment of each soul eternal?

Jude 7: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them... are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still being punished by fire?

Eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9) doesn't necessarily mean eternal punishment. If something is eternally destroyed, it means it's destroyed forever, not that it's forever being destroyed - right?

I'm an Annihalationist. I do believe in Hell (or whatever it's called) as a place where the wicked are destroyed, completely (the second death). I don't believe they are allowed into Heaven after they've been "cleansed" or whatever.

 

[gort]

People on this forum are ok with believing that people will spend eternity in hell, that I guess is my ultimate question.
And if these people that believe in hell, please describe a moment in your life where you felt as if you were in hell, so that you could at least slightly empathize with the plight that will embrace some people at the end times. I mean if you cant really understand or experience the magnitude of torture that will occur how in the world can you believe and allow yourself to accept this? I mean an immeasurable number of people died unbelievers and therefore may be going to hell. Hell is watching a dog get hit by a car, and watchiing it suffer on the ground. Hell is unfathomable. Yet people believe in it so easily, are so easy to accept it as truth, are so easy to accept it at all. Why? Because God said so? I dont understand you people. People may have to eternally experience hell. Do you understand the implications of this? You can come up with all your fancy interpretation of things that you want, I dont care. Unless you have experienced it you shouldnt so easily be willing to accept its existance, or at least not fervently question it all the days of your life.
I just dont understand the quick acceptance and adherance to this. Is it that some people have lived such sheltered lives where they havent experienced the tremendous pain that some have had to unfortunately deal with during their lives? I dont understand......Maybe you shouldnt be so quick to disprove me...

Pardon my abruptness, but do you think you're the first one to contemplate this? Do you honestly think there are people that are "A-Ok" with the concept?

Yes, it's real. It's very real.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]People on this forum are ok with believing that people will spend eternity in hell, that I guess is my ultimate question. [...] I mean if you cant really understand or experience the magnitude of torture that will occur how in the world can you believe and allow yourself to accept this? I mean an immeasurable number of people died unbelievers and therefore may be going to hell. Hell is watching a dog get hit by a car, and watchiing it suffer on the ground. Hell is unfathomable. Yet people believe in it so easily, are so easy to accept it as truth, are so easy to accept it at all. Why? Because God said so? I dont understand you people. People may have to eternally experience hell. Do you understand the implications of this? You can come up with all your fancy interpretation of things that you want, I dont care. Unless you have experienced it you shouldnt so easily be willing to accept its existance, or at least not fervently question it all the days of your life.
I just dont understand the quick acceptance and adherance to this. Is it that some people have lived such sheltered lives where they havent experienced the tremendous pain that some have had to unfortunately deal with during their lives? I dont understand......Maybe you shouldnt be so quick to disprove me[/SIZE]...

[...]moved to first page.

 

[Der Alte]

Moved to first page.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter, while I agree with you on bible interpretation, your methods make me uncomfortable. I don't have time to look up that much information. Keep your explainations simple and direct and feed info in bite size portions.
Also, I know it is hard, and I do it my self, but try not to be so indignant and selfrighteous. Teach us, in patience and wisdom.
One more note about scripture context. Even when you use plenty of clarifing verses to subbort the facts, don't forget to look at who Jesus was talking to and why He was saying it. He spoke differantly to the disipiles, than to the Gentiles of Pharisies.
And all who think Jesus went around pouring out love and mercy are forgetting so many verses. Look how angry He got at the money changers for "defiling" His Fathers house. How little patience He had for the Pharisies or the Romans who questioned Him; he knew they did not seek the truth. Are we all forgetting what Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven; or telling the rich man to give away all he owns. Jesus did not explain Himself to the nonbelievers, He knew he would not reach everyone. Those who seek will find, Those who reject Jesaus will not enter into the Kingdon of Heaven.
timlamb[/SIZE]

Thank you for your reply. I have a rule. I play nice until the other guy decides to not play nice. Always.

I have been a Christian longer than most people in this discussion have been alive. I have been at this for a long time. I have .5 GB datastick about 1/2 full of previous discussions. My previous posts in this thread I had already discussed several times before, the research was already done.

It ain't nice for someone to post links to anti- websites expecting me, and others, to go there and read all the stuff they have posted, and then reject out of hand, without reading or comment, what I posted as "opinions of apologists."

Bite sized bits only needlessly prolong the discussion. I have heard all the arguments and out-of-context proof texts. I simply preempted them.

I have no objection to someone reading small portions of what I post until they have a more complete understanding.

 

[timlamb]

I agree, Jesus wasn't all love and mercy - those who reject him and his words will pay, but not infinitely. And to be fair there are far more instances of Jesus doing something merciful than of him getting angry.

And I think you're taking the rich man passage out of context. Here is the part that follows:

"25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, Then who can be saved? 27 Jesus looked at them and said, With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."

Jesus spoke hyperbolically in the first part of the passage knowing what the disciples would ask, and that he would have the chance to end with a statement of mercy, not exclusion.

Merzbow, my point, concerning Jesus and the rich man was that He didn't smoothing things over and make nice with the Rich man. He knew the man worshiped his money more than God and so told him, you must get rid of it and serve the Lord. The man went away discouraged, Jesus didn't say "come as you are", everything must come second to God.

 

[Cleany]

you mean "god"

 

[timlamb]

If you believe it to be "Literal" Tim Has your Eye, Hand, or foot ever offended you??? If it has why haven't you cut it off?

Have you ate the Flesh, and drank the blood of Christ?
If not you have no life abiding in you.

Is there a "Literal" Bottomless Pit. How can a Pit be bottomless???

Have you ever called anyone a fool??

Do you hate your mother, father, son, or daughter so you can be Jesus' Student?

Which one do you declare to be literal, and symbolical Tim???

Ekletos, Hi there, ok, one at a time:
First, my statement was concerning the book of revelation and it's prophecy, but I will answer your questions;
Yes my foot has walked where it shouldn't and my hand has caused me to sin, under the direct control of my sinful mind, my selfish lusts and desires. I believe, in context, the point is to get rid of anything in your life that makes you sin and might cause you to loose salvation. I have plucked out pornography, and cut off alcohol, both of which stood between me and God.
I have partaken of the sacriments as Jesus instructed, symbols of His sacrifice. When He refers to His flesh as the living bread, he leaves no doubt He is symbolizing the sacrifice. But His broken body and shed blood are not symbolic, and you will have no eternal life in you if you do not accept them as payment for sin.
In Christ there is no beginning or end, He always has been and always will be, endless; could He creat a bottomless pit, Yes, I believe He could.
Yes, I have called a man "fool", and would be condemned to Hell, except for recognising my sin and need for the forgiveness, and partaking of the flesh, and the blood of Christ.
This question is down right insulting. Because I am sure you know that just as there are many words in the original text, that we could only translate as Love, Hate, is also used for lack of a better word. It is my understanding that the original word meant, "to have lessor love" or something like that. So Yes, my love for everyone else is "less than" my love for Jesus.
When there is symbolism, the bible literaly makes it clear.
These Questions were only meant to be arguementitive, and discredit me. I answered them honestly so no one following this would think couldn't or wouldn't back up my beliefs.
If the subject has run its course, lets move on. Otherwise, let's not get insulting.

 

[timlamb]

Children Of Light, anyone who says, "that man (or child) who just died went to Hell", is in danger of judgement. Do I, or anyone here appear to be taking this subject lightly. My pastor stood before us one sunday and, with tears running down his face, told of the time when one of his sons turned away from God; I too, cried, just at the thought of loosing one of my girls to satan.
I have suffered terrible mental anguish to the point where I thought even hell would be welcome, with a clear head I know better. The memory of that suffering only serves to make more gratefull for the gift of salvation.
It is a terrible loss for even one to be lost, and we must do all we can to reach all who will listen; Christ died for the salvation of all, but sadly not all will take the gift. Teach your children of the gift and claim it for your self. We must let go of those who are gone and hope for the best. Once someone is gone, we can do no more for them, but how would it help them for us to loose our salvation by turning away from God.
Regardless of your belief concerning hell, what is true will not be changed by what we believe, or want to be. The only positive choice is salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. This discussion is interesting but let us not loose our focus on what really matters, a loving God who can give us abundant life now and eternal life.
timlamb

 

[timlamb]

Cleany, I was taught to capitize any reference to the one God, be it the Father , Son or Holy Spirit. I forget and so am inconsistant. I think it is a combination of clearity and respect. Do you observe a different rule on the subject. I think it should be a matter of preferance.
timlamb

 

[Cleany]

oh right, i honestly dont see it as an issue. i only type like that in forums.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Merzbow, my point, concerning Jesus and the rich man was that He didn't smoothing things over and make nice with the Rich man. He knew the man worshiped his money more than God and so told him, you must get rid of it and serve the Lord. The man went away discouraged, Jesus didn't say "come as you are", everything must come second to God.

Here is a little different account that makes a great deal of sense.

Gospel of the Holy Twelve Lection XIV
10. AND behold there came to him two rich men, and one said, Good Master. But he said, Call me not good, for One alone is the All good, and that is God.

11. And the other said to him, Master, what good thing shall I do and live? Jesus said, Perform the Law and the prophets. He answered, I have performed them. Jesus answered, Go, sell all thou hast and divide with the poor, and follow me. But this saying pleased him not.

12. And the Lord said unto him, How sayest thou that thou hast performed the Law and the prophets? Behold many of thy brethren are clad with filthy rags, dying from hunger and thy house is full of much goods, and there goeth from it nought unto them.

13. And he said unto Simon, It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, for the rich care for themselves, and despise them that have not.

Edit to add: btw in another chapter of this Gospel is the account that we see in the NT also, apparently (according to the text) this is a different rich man that approached at an earlier time.