Hell is not permanent.

[EchoPneuma]

It must be dificult sometimes though, i had to get out the church when i realised my views clashed, not cos i was forced to or anything, i just had to to get out of all the hellfire doctrine and stuff, i knew i' have gone mad otherwise.........

probably mad now really thinkin about it but what can u do................

Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. I want to share what I believe with the class....but God has a plan.

What church do you go to now, if any? Do you claim any denomination or affiliation?

 

[EchoPneuma]

in the temple and drove out the money changers?
the fact is this, when it comes to religion emotions and feelings get in the way. why, i don't know forsure. i think it is because none of us can prove our FAITH is the true one over someone else FAITH. Kinda like a defence mode we go in or something.
I have found the best way to deal with it is not to take it personal. I enjoy everyone's opinion even when they are wrong. After all if they don't agree with mine they are of course wrong and need to be straighten out, and that is why i am here.

the one and only knowitall, or is it noitall? buddymack.

Aww Buddy ....Jesus had righteous indignation against the defiling of His Father's house...that's a far cry from someone getting steamed because of the differing beliefs on an internet BB.

THe only PEOPLE I really see Him getting His dander up over are the RELIGIOUS folks who are EXPERTS IN THE WORD, who think they KNOW IT ALL and are condemning others while trying to tell them how to be righteous.

BTW....have a great weekend!!

 

[red77]

Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. I want to share what I believe with the class....but God has a plan.

What church do you go to now, if any? Do you claim any denomination or affiliation?

i dont go to any church now, i tried looking round a few but it was the same thing with all of them, 'hell' was in there somewhere whatever their take on it might be so i just gave up in the end........i dont claim any denomination or anything either....i think thats part of the problem with churches sometimes IMO, when i think about why is there so many different ones, Baptist,methodist etc etc, it should all be about hope at the end of the day..........
Still, i still have that anyway.....!

 

[EchoPneuma]

i dont go to any church now, i tried looking round a few but it was the same thing with all of them, 'hell' was in there somewhere whatever their take on it might be so i just gave up in the end........i dont claim any denomination or anything either....i think thats part of the problem with churches sometimes IMO, when i think about why is there so many different ones, Baptist,methodist etc etc, it should all be about hope at the end of the day..........
Still, i still have that anyway.....!

Don't worry about denominations and "organized" religion..

(don't let them fool you...it's not THAT organized)

Just go to God. Seek Him. Look what Paul says...

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him

Earnestly seek God and you will be rewarded.

 

[Havahope]

dont go to any church now, i tried looking round a few but it was the same thing with all of them, 'hell' was in there somewhere whatever their take on it might be so i just gave up in the end........i dont claim any denomination or anything either....i think thats part of the problem with churches sometimes IMO, when i think about why is there so many different ones, Baptist,methodist etc etc, it should all be about hope at the end of the day..........
Still, i still have that anyway.....!

red, I can identify with the most of what you have said in this quote. I tried attending a Baptist church for a while some years back. Mostly because most of my friends went there. But it just got to the point where every time I attended a service I came away a little more frustrated and confused. so I don't attend any chuch or claim any particular denomination either. But I am thankful for that experience though, for it made me start to study the bible for myself, and instead of blindly accepting other's interpretation of it, to ask the Lord to teach me. And I feel sure that He did, and still is. (I know He is not done with me yet.)

I, like EchoPheuma, am a full preterist. But as far as being a full Christian Universalist, I am not that. (yet) But this I do feel to be a truth, that there is no such thing as eternal torment, and neither does the scriptures teach such a thing as this. I truly believe that either He will bring every single one of his creation back into His presence, or some will just "stay dead". But as I said, I know He is not done with me yet. Either way, this indecision on my part is not something which troubles me. For I know that whichever He does will be according to His infinite wisdom, mercy and love.

 

[red77]

red, I can identify with the most of what you have said in this quote. I tried attending a Baptist church for a while some years back. Mostly because most of my friends went there. But it just got to the point where every time I attended a service I came away a little more frustrated and confused. so I don't attend any chuch or claim any particular denomination either. But I am thankful for that experience though, for it made me start to study the bible for myself, and instead of blindly accepting other's interpretation of it, to ask the Lord to teach me. And I feel sure that He did, and still is. (I know He is not done with me yet.)

I, like EchoPheuma, am a full preterist. But as far as being a full Christian Universalist, I am not that. (yet) But this I do feel to be a truth, that there is no such thing as eternal torment, and neither does the scriptures teach such a thing as this. I truly believe that either He will bring every single one of his creation back into His presence, or some will just "stay dead". But as I said, I know He is not done with me yet. Either way, this indecision on my part is not something which troubles me. For I know that whichever He does will be according to His infinite wisdom, mercy and love.

Hey Havahope!

Its a pleasure to make your aquaintaince on this forum as well...! Its been great to have been able to talk to folk here tonight who have some positive words to say......!

 

[EchoPneuma]

I, like EchoPheuma, am a full preterist. But as far as being a full Christian Universalist, .

I kinda though you were....just by what you said. How did you come to be a FP?

Nix that.....don't take this thread off course. Answer on the preterist thread started by Katalasso.

I've only come to be a universalist recently....after much prayer, study and spiritual struggling with God. It was hard to let go of old indoctrination and baptist interpretations. I had God in such a small baptist box that I didn't even realize what I was doing until He slapped me upside the head.

 

[Der Alte]

로마서 6:23 죄의 삯은 사망이요 하나님의 은사는 그리스도 예수 우리 주 안에 있는 영생이니라

Awright?

Right book. Wrong chapter.

[SIZE=+1]여호와께서 나귀 입을 여시니[/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Well, it is nice you can find your answer in only one book... the problem is that there are so many different explanations of this topic throughout the other 65 books in the canon (which I just learned actually means measuring rod) and certainly others in the apochrypha and other non canonical scriptures... as well as in "non religious" texts. Let me ask you this... how did Judas die? According to Matthew or according to Luke?[/SIZE]

Christians accept the Bible as the word of God. If you do not believe the Bible is the word of God, and/or no better than those others scribblings, why do you have a Christian icon?

Were you really interested in the answer to your question you could google "Bible contradictions refuted" or "Bible errors refuted." There are many websites which address all the so-called contradictions. But it would seem you are more interested in tearing down the Bible to support your false beliefs.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]What about these scriptures is the "worlds eyes"?

Rom 11:11-15
2Cr 5:19
John 12:32
John 1:29
John 6:44
John 15:16
Titus 2:11
1 Timothy 2:5 & 6
Romans 5:18
Romans 11:15
Romans 11:32
1 Cor 3:15
1 Cor. 15:22
Phil. 2:9-11
1 Cor 12:3
Col. 1:19-22
1 Ti 4:10
1Ti 4:11
Romans 9:15-16
Acts 3:21)

I'd say there is more than enough scripture here to base our doctrine of Ultimate Reconciliation on.[/SIZE]

What about these scriptures? As I said twenty (20) out of context passages, all written by the apostles, not one word from the lips of Jesus. This is the response of all false religions, throw out-of-context scriptures out and IGNORE anything and everything that contradicts your assumptions and presuppositions. Such as these twenty eight (28) passages, I posted, spoken by Jesus.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Which I will post again. What about these scriptures in universalist eyes? I'd say there is more than enough scripture here to base our Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment of the wicked and ALL spoken by Jesus.

 

[katallasso]

What about these scriptures? As I said twenty (20) out of context passages, all written by the apostles, not one word from the lips of Jesus. This is the response of all false religions, throw out-of-context scriptures out and IGNORE anything and everything that contradicts your assumptions and presuppositions. Such as these twenty eight (28) passages, I posted, spoken by Jesus.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Which I will post again. What about these scriptures in universalist eyes? I'd say there is more than enough scripture here to base our Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment of the wicked and ALL spoken by Jesus.

What is out of context about them? And here is what Jesus said about Himself.

John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

 

[red77]

What is out of context about them? And here is what Jesus said about Himself.

John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Chances are there's nothing out of context.....some people just need to have 'hell' for them to get to their heaven i reckon.........

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]What is out of context about them? And here is what Jesus said about Himself.

John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,will draw all [men] unto me[/SIZE].

Now read that in context of the other 28 passages and several written by John after this verse.

Jesus did indeed say, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me." But it did not happen did it?

When Jesus was lifted up, how many came to him? Did any scribes, Pharisees, Romans, acknowledge Jesus as the messiah, and come to him, there on the hillside, or any time during the writing of the N.T.? Or did those same scribes and Pharisees continue to persecute and murder the followers of Jesus?

When will Jesus' saying "Depart from me, I never knew you?" Change to, "I know you?"

 

[Der Alte]

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

For universalism to be true, Jesus must be a liar, or sometime in the future the words, “ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.,” must change to, “in all cases you shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”

When do these words change?

Can sinners, the wicked, the disobedient, etc., be more righteous, than the Pharisees, and enter the kingdom? See, Ps 14:2-3; Isa 53:6; Rom 3:10.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works,” but they only “say,” they have. Makes me think of some TV “evangelists,” getting rich “in the name of Jesus.”

Jesus said, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Either Jesus is a liar or the teaching of universalism, is false, which claims “everyone” will enter the kingdom.

In the following, vs. 23, of this passage, Jesus said, “I never knew you.” Jesus did not say, “I will know you some day..” 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word, Jesus’ words, will still say “I never knew you.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.​

For universalism to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar here, or this verse, must change to say, “I will not deny you before my father.” When do the words change?

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” These are the words of Jesus, but Universalists cannot accept/believe in a God, or Jesus, who will punish or torment the wicked in fire.

Where does Jesus say they will come out of the fire? What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [[size=+1]αμην[/size]/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents anyone being “converted,” ever, at any time, after death?

Is there any scripture which states that the wicked, who are severed from the just, will be rescued from the fire and reunited with the just?

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.​

Jesus said that "few are chosen" for the Kingdom of heaven. Universalism claims that everyone will enter the kingdom. Is Jesus a liar?

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily [[SIZE=+1]αμην[/SIZE]/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.” If universalism is true, then at some point Jesus must lift the curse and call them blessed. When does that occur?

Or 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion life. The same word.

Does [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [[size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”

 

[Der Alte]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death. Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, usually not clearly understood, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When do the words change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]What is out of context about them? And here is what Jesus said about Himself.

John 12:32...And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me[/SIZE].

Universalist out-of-context proof text #32.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

This verse is supposed to prove that Jesus will draw all men to himself. Yet even within this same chapter people did not believe on Jesus

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:​

Also some Pharisees did believe on Jesus but refused to confess him publically because they were afraid of being put out of the synagogue.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:​

Jesus said anyone who denied him before men he would deny before his father, not draw them to himself.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.​

In this same passage Jesus said there would be some who did not believe in him.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.​

When Jesus was lifted up, he did not force all men to become his disiples and believe in him. Here is the reaction of those standing on the hillside when Jesus was literally lifted up. They did not come to him, Jesus did not force them to believe in him.

Mat 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.​

So, when Jesus was lifted up he did not draw all men to himself, in the sense implied by universalists.

What Jesus did do, was "invite," and make it possible for, all men to come to him.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

 

[A New Dawn]

MOD HAT ON!

Over the last few days, staff have received numerous reports from this thread because people are not sticking to the topic. They are making things personal.

I have already put one mod hat in this thread, that makes this the second one. I will not put another one in it. If people don't start posting on-topic, then I will close the thread down.

If you have trouble finding the rules page, please follow this link and read them as many times as is necessary to make sure future posts do not violate them.

http://www.christianforums.com/rules

Thank You.

MOD HAT OFF!

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]The oldest commentary that I have been able to find on Luke 16:19-31 is this one by John Lightfoot (1602-1675). This man seems to have been quite learned in ancient Hebrew beliefs and customs. The commentary is lengthy so I have divided it into two sections so as not to possibly exceed the number of words allowed for one post.......[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Yeah, yeah, that's what he said... Israel and the Gentiles... very nice research. SO: not rich and poor, not fat and skinny, not believer and nonbeliever... but Jesus was declaring the presence of God available to anyone.[/SIZE]

I have addressed Lightfoot before right here. But the last time it was a "Christian" claiming that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a pagan Greek legend.

While Lightfoot was a noted scholar, there are several errors in this commentary, but rather than try to go through and point them out I will make one comment and post a more reliable commentary from about 1500+ years earlier, from the early church father, Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the apostle. Note this early church father relates this as an actual historical event. I am also posting the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Abraham's bosom.

This commentary cites tractates in the Jewish Talmud. The Talmud is available in at least two locations online. The tractates cited are not in that Talmud. So-called evidence that cannot be readily verified, is not evidence, it is only an unsupported assertion.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P7262_1923873


Jewish Encyclopedia- ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:

By : Kaufmann Kohler

In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abode of bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Kid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).

In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own. Whereupon Abraham said: "They have the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets; let them be mindful of these, and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden of paradise, like Michael in Jewish and St. Peter in Christian folk-lore ("Texts and Studies," v. 55, 69, Cambridge). Of Abraham as attorney pleading for Israel, R. Jonathan also speaks (Shab. 89b).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=362&letter=A
​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]What about these scriptures is the "worlds eyes"?

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Remember that "No on can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor 12:3

I'd say there is more than enough scripture here to base our doctrine of Ultimate Reconciliation on.[/SIZE]

This is universalist out-of-context, proof text #15.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

I can’t remember how many times I have addressed this, at least once in this thread but no matter. No man is so blind as he who will not see.

This out-of-context proof text supposedly proves that all mankind will be saved. Supposedly every person who ever lived their, “work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved”

This verse certainly seems to say that doesn’t it? However, the audience is not every person in the world but, “labourers together with God,” “God's husbandry,” “God's building,” vs. 10 and those who “build upon this foundation, Jesus Christ,” vs. 11. Those who belong to, and work for, Christ, their work will be tried and they will be saved, not all mankind.

Also note vs. 17, which universalist, never, ever, read or quote. Every man who defiles the temple of God, God will destroy, not save, him.

1 Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Out-of-context proof text # 22, “1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

This verse cannot mean that every person ever born will be saved because Paul, the same writer, in chapter 3 of this same book, already said if anyone defiles the temple of God, him will God destroy.

Note vs. 23 They who are Christ’s will be raised at his coming. What about those who are not Christ’s? Then comes the end and all enemies will be put under his feet. Vs. 24-25. Now this passage does not contradict 1 Cor 3:17.

1 Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.​

The next out-of-context proof text, Phil 2:9-11, was also written by Paul. Using this passage to prove universalism assumes that Paul suffered amnesia after he wrote 1 Cor 3:17 and that he forgot Psalm 110:1, and where it is quoted in the N.T. Ac 2:34,35, and Heb 1:13.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Remember that "No on can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor 12:3​

When God puts all his enemies under Jesus feet, as a footstool many will be saying “Lord, Lord,” but Jesus will say, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Psa 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

 

[Jipsah]

You pervert everything that I say. The truth is not in you.

I think that's a variation on the "Oh yeah? Well you suck!" argument. It kinda speaks for itself.

Man cannot justify his own wisdom in the words of God.

You appear to be saying that in fact if God behaves in a way we'd normally call evil that we have to call it good in His case. I don't believe that. At all. I believe that God does not behave in a way that we can reasonably call evil. Ever.

You are spiritually sick

Back to your initial "argument", I see. Well, when you have nothing to say, say it by calling names.

See ya...