Hell is not permanent.

[KCDAD]

One last comment on this verse, and every other verse, Universalists quote to prove their false doctrine. Virtually every Universalist proof text is from the epistles, written by the apostles. They cite their out-of-context proof texts and ignore the 28 passages where Jesus clearly taught that many would never enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather than being freed from hell, they can never leave.

One factual note... the Epistles were written BEFORE the Gospels and therefore have greater historical relevance and authority.

 

[KCDAD]

KCDAD, you obviously don't believe the Christian bible to be the word of God, we have no neutral ground from which to work, that is why I didn't bother trying to reason with you, you are beyond reason; I only disagreed.timlamb

I do not believe The Bible to be The Word of God. Neither do you. The Bible is a book. Jesus is The Word. IN the same way that words are ideas placed into reality by vocalization ( or gestures), Jesus is God made real through the flesh.
The Bible (which should NOT be capitalized), is a man made compilation of Jewish history, law, prose and poetry which intends to secure Israels place in history and attempts to describe man's relationship with his creator. (This, of course, from the Jewish persepective... note differences between the Koran and Torah after the Arab people are born through Ishmael.)
The New Testament is a record of the early church written by early church members based on speeches and lessons taught by Paul, Peter, and other Apostles and church leaders... There is not one word in The Bible that came from the mouth of God and God did not write a single word with His finger. Words are human inventions... not God inventions. Ideas, dreams; now there is the realm in which God communicates.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I don,t see anywhere in scripture whare "creature" is used to discribe man.

Perhaps because this is not talking about man only. It is referring to all creatures including man. The word translated as creature means created thing.

Havahope, I don't think you know what you believe. You just applauded KCDAD, who said heaven and hell are here and now; then you use scripture to defend the thought that all will go to heaven. I read that Universalists are open to all oppinions of God. Why do you fight orthodox Christian so persistantly?

Lets not forget that the gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within us. Also let's not forget that the gospel of John tells us that those who do not believe are condemned already.

Why is it that those who believe in eternal hell fire call themselves orthodox while the orthodox church does not teach this?

 

[KCDAD]

"the Kingdom is here and now"
Havahope, if this is your heaven, you don't have much to hope for, this is sad, sad, sad.

And if you are waiting for something better, you will be sorry you missed out. The point is there is nothing better than it is right now! Nor could there be. If you don't get that, you don't get it. Today is the beginning of eternity... this day which you think is 24 hours and few minutes long, is really infinity already. We are already with The Lord today and forever...

 

[KCDAD]

As I said an out-of-context verse, written by one of the apostles, while the 28 passages spoken by Jesus continue to be ignored.quote]
How inconvienent that the apostles are quoted ... since they were the only ones around when the book was written...
The same guy wrote down the words of both...
Creature means that which was created... rock, tree, wombat, human, yorkshire terrier... "the beasts said amen"???? what are you nuts? This is metaphor.

 

[red77]

Yeah, I always find it amusing when people try to say that Hell is just some temporal cleansing parlor for people who are unrepentant.

Amusing.......???? It never ceases to amaze me the total lack of compassion that seems to be rife in these fundamentalist circles, the church i was in once had a debate about what it would it be like for the 'unsaved' where there's apparently a playback of their life before being thrown into the pit, it was sickening.........u must be easily amused is all i can say, why is it that some of the sickest/vilest/loveless attitudes are perpetrated by those that claim to know the meaning of true love...????

 

[KCDAD]

Here's an idea for you loving parents. Take a bic lighter and your son or daughter... light the Bic and hold it about two inches below the forearm of your child. hold it there for ten seconds... and then keep holding it there for a minute, and then an hour, then a day, month, year, the rest of your life... make sure you put in your will that someone else needs to continue this loving chastisement of your child... for a thousand years.... ten thousand... a million... that punishment hasn't even reached its beginning stage yet... a billion years.... do you remember what it was that you are punishing your child for? Good, keep burning away that sin... a trillion years... you aren't any closer to finishing the sentence you pronounced on your child than when you began. Justice... what a concept!

 

[red77]

Here's an idea for you loving parents. Take a bic lighter and your son or daughter... light the Bic and hold it about two inches below the forearm of your child. hold it there for ten seconds... and then keep holding it there for a minute, and then an hour, then a day, month, year, the rest of your life... make sure you put in your will that someone else needs to continue this loving chastisement of your child... for a thousand years.... ten thousand... a million... that punishment hasn't even reached its beginning stage yet... a billion years.... do you remember what it was that you are punishing your child for? Good, keep burning away that sin... a trillion years... you aren't any closer to finishing the sentence you pronounced on your child than when you began. Justice... what a concept!

well put........! One of the biggest arguments I've had with evangelical 'fire and brimstone' preachrs and their ilk is the total futility of hell or the lake of fire or whatevers reputed to happen, it serves absolutely no purpose other than to keep people in a state of extreme pain.......what is the point???? If it was some sort of place to be punished for transgressions and come out reformed then in a way that would make some sort of sense, but this is just cruelty of the most barbaric kind imaginable, in fact its just impossible to imagine it, i suspect that most evangelicals/fundamentalists have no real concept of what they're actually saying when they bang on about eternity really.........are we really supposed to accept that the divine plan created by the supreme being and all knowing/loving God involves unspeakable torment for people at the end of it? There's no better solution? somehow it just doesnt add up and i dont subscribe to it at all...........

 

[timlamb]

Here's an idea for you loving parents. Take a bic lighter and your son or daughter... light the Bic and hold it about two inches below the forearm of your child. hold it there for ten seconds... and then keep holding it there for a minute, and then an hour, then a day, month, year, the rest of your life... make sure you put in your will that someone else needs to continue this loving chastisement of your child... for a thousand years.... ten thousand... a million... that punishment hasn't even reached its beginning stage yet... a billion years.... do you remember what it was that you are punishing your child for? Good, keep burning away that sin... a trillion years... you aren't any closer to finishing the sentence you pronounced on your child than when you began. Justice... what a concept!

Here's an idea, give your child a loving home with his own key and all the food he needs and a promise of love forever, and watch that child spit on you and curse your home and your love and your food, and go off into a life of prostitution and drugs. You drag him out and he curses you more, you beg and plead, but he says "I have no father" and walks away.
Finally, heart broken, you have to say, "he was never my child", and you add on rooms to the house and make room for all those who are and want to be your children, who want your love, and your gifts.
That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

 

[timlamb]

I do not believe The Bible to be The Word of God. Neither do you. The Bible is a book. Jesus is The Word. IN the same way that words are ideas placed into reality by vocalization ( or gestures), Jesus is God made real through the flesh.
The Bible (which should NOT be capitalized), is a man made compilation of Jewish history, law, prose and poetry which intends to secure Israels place in history and attempts to describe man's relationship with his creator. (This, of course, from the Jewish persepective... note differences between the Koran and Torah after the Arab people are born through Ishmael.)
The New Testament is a record of the early church written by early church members based on speeches and lessons taught by Paul, Peter, and other Apostles and church leaders... There is not one word in The Bible that came from the mouth of God and God did not write a single word with His finger. Words are human inventions... not God inventions. Ideas, dreams; now there is the realm in which God communicates.

I do believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, the bible is all about Jesus, from Genesis to revelation. I believe the words in red to be quotes, at least in truth and trustworthyness, of Jesus words spoken for our understanding. God communicates to us in many waysbut if you don't believe the bible, you will never understand a dream.
You cannot be Godly withoput the scripture, Scripture teaches us how to be Godly. The bible is not just "a book" it is "THE" book, and if I choose to capitalise to emphasize, that is my choice.
You may have a point about one thing, my eternity began when I choose to have faith in Jesus as my savior. But that does not make this imperfect world heaven. I have a great life; serving God is the most rewarding thing I have ever done!
timlamb

 

[red77]

Here's an idea, give your child a loving home with his own key and all the food he needs and a promise of love forever, and watch that child spit on you and curse your home and your love and your food, and go off into a life of prostitution and drugs. You drag him out and he curses you more, you beg and plead, but he says "I have no father" and walks away.
Finally, heart broken, you have to say, "he was never my child", and you add on rooms to the house and make room for all those who are and want to be your children, who want your love, and your gifts.
That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

well here's a couple of other ideas, if the child at some point, even if its years and years later comes back and says he/she wants to be part of your family and wants your love again are u going to reject him/her? say 'no, its too late for forgiveness'.....? Because you wouldnt have much love about you if u did......
furthermore it seems to be a fundamentalist idea that people rebel against God in this life which just isnt true, most people try and get on with their daily lives and hope that there's some purpose to their existence and their life does mean something, they're just not sure if God exists or not, quite frankly with the abundance of different takes on Christianity from churches its no wonder that people become disillusioned with it......and the extremism of certain evangelical wings does not do the church any favours with its general intolerance......the preaching of 'hell' is all about fear, not love.............i've seen and experienced first hand the effects of this and it certainly doesnt come from love in any way, in fact indoctrinating people through fear is downright evil in my opinion and fundamentalism in its extreme form has a lot to answer for........

 

[Soul Searcher]

Here's an idea, give your child a loving home with his own key and all the food he needs and a promise of love forever, and watch that child spit on you and curse your home and your love and your food, and go off into a life of prostitution and drugs. You drag him out and he curses you more, you beg and plead, but he says "I have no father" and walks away.
Finally, heart broken, you have to say, "he was never my child", and you add on rooms to the house and make room for all those who are and want to be your children, who want your love, and your gifts.
That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

Or more accurately [in the view of et] you send the child out into the world to fend for themselves never allowing them to actually see you expecting them to worship you based solely on hearsay from others and burn them for eternity if they fail to do so.

 

[Havahope]

"the Kingdom is here and now"
Havahope, if this is your heaven, you don't have much to hope for, this is sad, sad, sad.
Havahope, I don't think you know what you believe. You just applauded KCDAD, who said heaven and hell are here and now; then you use scripture to defend the thought that all will go to heaven. I read that Universalists are open to all oppinions of God. Why do you fight orthodox Christian so persistantly?

Tim, its really a very simple concept. I have the "peace of God, which passes all understanding which keeps my heart and mind through Christ Jesus." For He has "raised me up and made me to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
And is this all that I have to look forward to? No, but even if that were all, I would be grateful for even this. But in the ages to come, I believe that He will exceed even this in His kindness toward me through Christ Jesus, my Lord and Saviour. This is my one great hope, and the anchor which holds me fast, as I press closer and closer toward the shedding of this mortal frame.

I don,t see anywhere in scripture whare "creature" is used to discribe man.

James 1: 17. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."


So, man is not among the "things" which God created?

Gen. 1: 27. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

 

[Havahope]

• What is the word translated "creature" in this verse? κτισμα.
• How many times does it occur in the N.T.? Four, 1 Tim 4:4, James 1:18, Rev 5:13, Rev 8:9.
• What does it mean? "Thing founded, thing created."
• How many times does is refer to human beings? Never!
• Possible objection. "But, things don't speak." The four beasts said, "Amen."

James 1: 17. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."


So, man is not among the "things" which God created?

Gen. 1: 27. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Now we are done playing, "Neener, neener, neener, here is a verse that utterly, completely, totally, absolutely, destroys the doctrine of eternal punishment and nobody can answer it."

Well, Rev. 5:13 does seem to be the one scripture that you cannot knock down or destroy, doesn't it? Maybe thats why you would like to not play anymore?

Would you care to go back and address my posts citing scripture?

Again, would you care to address Rev. 5:13? For that is scripture also.

 

[timlamb]

Perhaps because this is not talking about man only. It is referring to all creatures including man. The word translated as creature means created thing.



Lets not forget that the gospel of Luke tells us that the kingdom of God is within us. Also let's not forget that the gospel of John tells us that those who do not believe are condemned already.

Why is it that those who believe in eternal hell fire call themselves orthodox while the orthodox church does not teach this?

Nowhere else in the Bible does "creature" mean man, I use the whole Bible.
The kingdom of God is within us because we will not find it on this earth, we will only find it by faith; faith that comes from the heart. Luke says that.
John 3:18 says nonbelievers are condemned, and jesus explains His statement; it is because they choose to stay in the darkness, they choose to hide from the "Light", who is Jesus, God's Son.
John 3:21 "But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainlythat what he has done (his works) has been through God."
Look up orthodox in the dictionary, I use it as it is defined.
timlamb

 

[katallasso]

I don,t see anywhere in scripture whare "creature" is used to discribe man.

Havahope, I don't think you know what you believe. You just applauded KCDAD, who said heaven and hell are here and now; then you use scripture to defend the thought that all will go to heaven. I read that Universalists are open to all oppinions of God. Why do you fight orthodox Christian so persistantly?

You must be thinking of Unitarian Universalists, we Christian Universalists certainly are not open to all opinions.

 

[timlamb]

well here's a couple of other ideas, if the child at some point, even if its years and years later comes back and says he/she wants to be part of your family and wants your love again are u going to reject him/her? say 'no, its too late for forgiveness'.....? Because you wouldnt have much love about you if u did......
furthermore it seems to be a fundamentalist idea that people rebel against God in this life which just isnt true, most people try and get on with their daily lives and hope that there's some purpose to their existence and their life does mean something, they're just not sure if God exists or not, quite frankly with the abundance of different takes on Christianity from churches its no wonder that people become disillusioned with it......and the extremism of certain evangelical wings does not do the church any favours with its general intolerance......the preaching of 'hell' is all about fear, not love.............i've seen and experienced first hand the effects of this and it certainly doesnt come from love in any way, in fact indoctrinating people through fear is downright evil in my opinion and fundamentalism in its extreme form has a lot to answer for........

Every one who goes to hell will want out, but they are not Gods Children, and will not ever choose to serve and worship God. God knows the heart, He knows who wants to know Him and those He will never let go. The theif on the cross did nothing except to show his faith in Jesus as the Son of God, he was promised salvation. I believe had he never spoken those words, God would have known his heart, because of his faith, he had salvation already.

 

[KCDAD]

Finally, heart broken, you have to say, "he was never my child", and you add on rooms to the house and make room for all those who are and want to be your children, who want your love, and your gifts.
That child is not gone by your hand, but by their own choice.

God gives up? He was never my child? God is not man that you attribute our weakness and selfishness to God.

Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous
[of others]; love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed
up, does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not
seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, does not
impute evil, does not rejoice at iniquity but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

¶ Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall
be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or
knowledge, it shall be done away.

 

[katallasso]

Rev. 5: 13. "And EVERY creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Would you Care to comment on this passage?

Before poor hope has to go through some inane remark like "all doesn't mean "all", it means "all" christians.

This is the worship that is happening in this scripture.


"every knee shall bow"

Bow here is the word "kampto" Strongs #2578 which means;

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self

The root word being
Homologeo=

To confess/ declare.

A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.

B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

C. To praise and celebrate.

Obviously, one who is going to end up being tormented forever will not be giving this type of worship.

 

[red77]

Every one who goes to hell will want out, but they are not Gods Children, and will not ever choose to serve and worship God. God knows the heart, He knows who wants to know Him and those He will never let go. The theif on the cross did nothing except to show his faith in Jesus as the Son of God, he was promised salvation. I believe had he never spoken those words, God would have known his heart, because of his faith, he had salvation already.

if this is what u think what on earth was the point of your analogy about parents and their wayward children....? Are their any fundamentalists who are capable of seeing things other than in black and white....? I'm sure God does know the hearts of each individual person and why they do and think the things they do, quite frankly there'll be a lot of people who die in this life who are not born again christians, much more than those who are i suspect, but that does not mean that they have rebelled against God and would not want the chance to have a relationship with him once they know he exists....! you make it sound as though people just want nothing to do with God and thats just absurd.....! And it still at the end of the day does not justify torture for no purpose, can u justify torture in this life by men....? Auschwitz for example....? Yet you ask us to believe it to be worthy of God......sometimes i just despair of the sickness of this message.........