Hell is not permanent.

[eoe]

Notice in the scriptures that we use that properly translate "aion" there is evidence of eteral life for us. This is the Rotherham translation.

Katallasso - just as background info. I am Greek Orthodox (well.. I soon will be made a member). Both priests and half my parish are ethnic Greeks that speak the language natively. We do not use a translation. You are not going to get around this with a "translation" issue.

There is no translation in my case. What do you do then?

Now you are reduced to interpreting meaning by context? Are you going to say that it is a matter of difference in the age of the language? If so we can look into what St. John Chrysostom says about the matter. Know him? He was the Patriarch of Constantinople in the 4th century. HE most certainly not only spoke the language but also had a very close tie to the Apostles.

We can go back farther but I suppose St. John is a good place to start. There you have no context, translation or language age issues.

[SIZE=+1]2 Cor 5:4 [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]And verily, we who are in the tent, do sigh, being weighed down, while yet we are not wishing to unclothe ourselves, but to clothe ourselves over,--in order that, what is mortal, may be swallowed up, by[SIZE=+1] life[/SIZE].[/SIZE]

The word in question does not appear anywhere in this verse. How is that context? The word you are emphasizing is ζωή - Zoe.

[SIZE=+1]2 Timothy 1:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]But hath now been made manifest through means of the forthshining of our Saviour Christ Jesus,--Who, indeed, hath abolished death, and hath thrown light upon[SIZE=+1] life[/SIZE] and incorruptibility, through means of the glad-message:[/SIZE]

Again - you are attempting to use this as context for aionios when the word doe not appear anywhere in the verse.
Your use of the word incorruptibility - how is it that is not mistranslated as "genuine"?

[SIZE=+1]1 Cor 9:25 [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]But, every man who striveth in the games, in all things, useth self-control;--they, indeed, then, that a corruptible crown, they may receive; but, we, an[SIZE=+1] incorruptible[/SIZE]![/SIZE]

No use of the word in question.

[SIZE=+1]1 Cor 15:52 [SIZE=+1]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet; for it shall sound, and, the dead, shall be raised,[SIZE=+1] incorruptible[/SIZE], and, we, shall be changed. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

Aionios was the word in question. Context? I think not!

[SIZE=+1]1 Peter 1:4 [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Unto an inheritance,[SIZE=+1] incorruptible[/SIZE] and undefiled and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you[/SIZE]

No aionios here.

[SIZE=+1]1 Peter 1:23 [SIZE=+1]Having been regenerated--Not out of corruptible seed, but[SIZE=+1] incorruptible[/SIZE]--through means of the word of a Living and Abiding God;[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Or here.

What this boils down to is that you want to make this word mean one thing when it is a topic you dispise and another when you like the topic. The people that make this argument make sweeping statements then ignore the fact that the same word is used in the exact same way by the exact same people to talk about eternal life!.

 

[katallasso]

You wanted to know if we believed in eternal life of the believer. That is why the word life is used.

Do you read and understand greek? Are your scriptures in greek?

 

[Children of Light]

A guy was mugged on the side of the street, bleeding from a wound, a Christian(late for bible study) ran by and didnt stop to help the guy, a wiccan was late for a hair appt saw the guy, had pity on him, stopped, bandaged his wound, helped him up, and paid for him to be seen at the er. Now I ask you, who was this guys brother?

 

[Children of Light]

Jesus already answered that question.

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, usually not clearly understood, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.​

No I am not scoffing at this parable.
I am asking, if someone were to spend a few minutes in hell, does anyone here that is a fervent believer in eternal punishment think that they could still be a fervent believer after they were able to spiritually experience(for just a few minutes) the eternal torment that dead nonbelievers will experience eternally?

 

[eoe]

You wanted to know if we believed in eternal life of the believer. That is why the word life is used.

No.. I want to know why the word aionios is used to descibe eternal life and eternal damnation.

Do you read and understand greek?

To some extent yes.

Are your scriptures in greek?

In church yes. At home yes and no.

My priest and spiritual father is Greek. He grew up there. He went to seminary there.
I can just as easily ask him to tell me if hell is eternal. I know what he would tell me.
So then I have eliminated context and translation issues. The only thing left is "I don't want to believe it".

I can handle that one too.

The main reason that people reject the idea of an eternal hell is because they do not understand it. They have been taught a twisted version of the doctrine and reject it.

Again. If the word Aionios does not mean eternal then why is it used when describing eternal life. The same people use the same word to descibe eternity and "not quite eternity"? That makes no sense.

 

[timlamb]

Let's don't jump to conclusions, the question from eoe was do we Universalists believe that there is eternal life for the redeemed, not how one becomes born again.

I am merely relating what you are trying to say to the subject of this thread. Your point, as a universalist, is that all will be saved, and you are using these verses to support that theory. My point is you are using scripture to your convenience and not how it was intended.
I have not, in following this thread from the beginning, heard you discuss faith. This is relivant to the subject only because we are saved by faith, and the universalist view doesn't seem to require faith for for salvation.
I read my bible to say that those without faith will not recieve the inheritance of God in heaven, and that is permanant, and eternal. Those unsaved will not be with God, that is hell, permanently.


eoe, that is a good point. I tryed to make that point back around post 275, but I am not so learned as you and my point went largely ignored.

timlamb

 

[katallasso]

eoe,

Your St. John is one early church father.
Here are some early fathers who were universalists, 7 bishops and an archbishop, who knew the greek.

St. Athanasius, the Archbishop of Alexandria
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour

St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body.

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.


Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.

Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea
The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.

Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and bishop of Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (publ. Baker Book, 1969),

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them.



Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466), was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius's work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school."
In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity.

Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)
Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection

Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being.

Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. -

As we can well see this is an impressive list of theologians. May I add another?

Titus, bishop of Bostra writes: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

 

[timlamb]

eoe,

Your St. John is one early church father.
Here are some early fathers who were universalists, 7 bishops and an archbishop, who knew the greek.

St. Athanasius, the Archbishop of Alexandria
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour

St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body.

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.


Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.

Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea
The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.

Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and bishop of Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (publ. Baker Book, 1969),

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them.



Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466), was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius's work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school."
In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity.

Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)
Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection

Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being.

Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. -

As we can well see this is an impressive list of theologians. May I add another?

Titus, bishop of Bostra writes: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

I thought eoe was discussing scripture. Sadly, many church leaders have developed theories contrary to the bible. This happens when they begin to think themselves wise and interpret scripture by there own earthly wisdom, rather than by the Holy Spirit.
timlamb

 

[katallasso]

Tim,

You must have missed where he was mentioning his early church father.

 

[katallasso]

No.. I want to know why the word aionios is used to descibe eternal life and eternal damnation.


To some extent yes.

In church yes. At home yes and no.

My priest and spiritual father is Greek. He grew up there. He went to seminary there.
I can just as easily ask him to tell me if hell is eternal. I know what he would tell me. Wouldn't it be better if you studied the matter yourself? That's alot of the problem today, people just blindly believing what preachers preach.
So then I have eliminated context and translation issues. The only thing left is "I don't want to believe it".

I can handle that one too.

The main reason that people reject the idea of an eternal hell is because they do not understand it. They have been taught a twisted version of the doctrine and reject it.

Again. If the word Aionios does not mean eternal then why is it used when describing eternal life. You have missed the point of Gods plan for the ages. It does not mean eternal, there comes the problem. The same people use the same word to descibe eternity and "not quite eternity"? That makes no sense.

Again. If the word Aionios does not mean eternal then why is it used when describing eternal life. The same people use the same word to descibe eternity and "not quite eternity"? That makes no sense.

In neither case is it meant to mean eternity, there comes the confusion.

Here again is the word study.

Aion....a noun, that means essentially what our word aion or eon means....an age.

Aion, which is greek for aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." So it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).
It is not limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history.

It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.

Aionios...an adjective which describes a noun

Since aionios is the word in the NT that is translated "eternal"
it must be mistranslated, because it is the adjective of the noun aion which means "age" and the adjective cannot be of greater value than the noun from which it comes. It just doesn't work that way in kione greek.

1) "...Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this ETERNITY [AIONI], neither in the ETERNITY to come." (Mt. 12:32).

2) "So shall it be at the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]...." (Mt. 13:49).

3) "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the ETERNITY [AIONOS]." (Mt. 24:3).

4) "Far above all principality...not only in this ETERNITY [AIONI], but also in that which is to come." (Eph. 1:21).

5) "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ETERNITY [AIONON]...." (1 Cor. 2:7).

6) "Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ETERNITIES, ETERNITY without end [TOU AIONOS TON AIONON]." (Eph. 3:21).

7) "...But now once in the end of the ETERNITY [AIONON] hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Heb. 9:26).

And something else that came to mind is how can a word with "age" at it's root be involved with the word "eternity". Because the word "age" connotates time, of which there is none in eternity.


Aidios...eternity

Now there is a word for everlasting, it is aidios. Because aidios occurs rarely in the New Testament does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It just goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. It could be that the Father was more interested in His plan for the ages. Paul uses the word in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." It is also used in Jude 6. The actual use of aidios should tell us something. If there is actually a greek word for "everlasting" why wasn't it used? Worth thinking about.

 

[timlamb]

You must be using a bible written just for you. My NIV and NKJV don't read the way you are quoting.
Such as Matthew 13:49and 50;
"So it will be at the end of the age. The Angles will come forth, separate the wicked from the just, and cast them into the furnice of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
Time is divided into ages, that does not affect eternity.

You still haven't said how salvation by faith enters in to your belief. I am trying to establish the existance of the saved and unsaved, and that pertains directly to the existance of hell.
timlamb

 

[katallasso]

No, actually there are quite a few. Here are 3 of the best known. If you'd like more there are more.

Concordant Literal
Mat. 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Mat. 24:51 and shall be cutting him asunder, and will be appointing his part with the hypocrites. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

2 Thessalonians 1:9)who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.

13 wild billows of the sea, frothing forth their own shame; straying stars, for whom the gloom of darkness has been kept for an eon.
Rotherham's

(Rotherham) Matthew 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

(Rotherham) Matthew 24:51 And will cut him asunder; and, his part, with the hypocrites, will appoint: There, shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth!

(Rotherham) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay--age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might--

(Rotherham) Jude 1:7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing.

(Rotherham) Jude 1:13 Wild waves of sea, foaming out their own infamies, wandering stars, for whom the gloom of darkness age-abiding hath been reserved.




Young' s Literal Translation


2 Thes. 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his
strength,

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Mat 24:51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Jud 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.

 

[katallasso]

You still haven't said how salvation by faith enters in to your belief. I am trying to establish the existance of the saved and unsaved, and that pertains directly to the existance of hell.
timlamb

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

2 Cor. 5:19...To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Our Father reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus, it's done. Now we must be born again to partake of the kingdom now and hereafter. Those that don't will be purified.

1 Ti 4:10... For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Havahope]

A guy was mugged on the side of the street, bleeding from a wound, a Christian(late for bible study) ran by and didnt stop to help the guy, a wiccan was late for a hair appt saw the guy, had pity on him, stopped, bandaged his wound, helped him up, and paid for him to be seen at the er. Now I ask you, who was this guys brother?

The wiccan without any doubt.

Rom.2: 11. "For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

 

[timlamb]

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

2 Cor. 5:19...To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Our Father reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus, it's done. Now we must be born again to partake of the kingdom now and hereafter. Those that don't will be purified.

1 Ti 4:10... For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We have discussed reconciliation, it takes cooperation from both parties. In Christ is the offer of reconciliation, it must be accepted.
"...who is the savior of all men" Yes, Jesus is an equal oppertunity savior, He died for all, provided you accept Him by faith as savior. To believe anything less is to live in contradiction of scripture.
Your quote of 1corinthians 3:15 sheds much more light, in context.
1 cor 3:10-13; "...But let each one take heed how he builds on it."
"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
"Now if any one builds on this foundation..."
"each one's work will become clear; for the day will declare it, because it will be revieled by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is."
vs. 15 "if any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;..."
It begins with a foundation in the form of faith in Jesus, if his works mean nothing and do not hold up, he himself will be saved by faith in Jesus.
You have yet to show how Universalism is supported by scripture concerning faith, not belief, faith.
All will someday know He is Lord, and bow before Him. But if they die without faith; without accepting salvation; they will not enter into eternal Life.
They go to the fire, and that is permanent.
There are no other options.

 

[Deraj]

Disagree all you like. I don't care.

For the moment the Hebrew word sheol is irrelevant. I quoted from Luke 16, N.T. written in Greek. How do I show hades is the place of torment? Because hades is the word translated "hell" in Luk 16:23, the rich man said it was place of torment, and Abraham said nobody could leave.

Yes it is the word translated "hell", but that doesn't mean that the translation is an eternal hell or that the translation is correct. If it was correct, then you would have to say that either it contradicts with 1 Sam 2:6, where you can be raised from sheol/hades after going there, or Hell is not eternal.
I don't think that it is a contradiction, so I would go for it being either incorrect, or not eternal.

And having dutifully posted your one out-of-context kneejerk proof text please explain how spanking a child with a rod will keep him from dying and being buried in sheol?

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Pray tell. How did you show my post to be an out-of-context kneejerk proof text?
Now either, the hell here is actually the eternal hell, which you are sent to after the final judgement, or it is saying that hades/sheol, which is not eternal, is a bad thing and there is an alternative. When it is not eternal, this would mean that it is whilst we are dead, and have still an opportunity to repent and have the gospel taught to us, before the final judgement.
I believe that there is an eternal torment after the final judgement, but that there is also sheol/hades which is after our death, but before the final judgement, if we are not followers of the gospel already before our deaths.
Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but I don't see how your interpretation fits in with 1 Sam 2:6 at all.

Before you presume to lecture me on sheol/hades, gehenna, etc. perhaps you should read what the Jews actually believed about hell. I believe they know more about their language Hebrew than you do.

Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

By : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud.

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ([SIZE=+1]הנס = חנס[/SIZE] ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

​

It was not a lecture, but a discussion. "Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell."
It doesn't seem that the Jews, know too much about what is meant by hell either. They could probably have a similar discussion to what this thread is about. They probably have disagreements on literal or symbolic descriptions of hell as well. I know I have disagreements on what they say, whether it is literal or symbolic.
The Jews may know more about Hebrew than I do, but do they know more about theology? That is debatable, since they do not believe in Christ, yet I do. They have different doctrine to me and to you, so giving what the Jews believe about hell, doesn't really show either way which Christian is right or wrong. Interpretation of the scripture is not only a problem caused by translation errors or language barriers, but it is caused also by gaps in our understanding.

 

[KCDAD]

Quote

Originally Posted by: Der Alter

And having dutifully posted your one out-of-context kneejerk proof text please explain how spanking a child with a rod will keep him from dying and being buried in sheol?

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

this is an easy understanding... IF you understand that "hell" is referring to the grief and despair that we suffer through out our lives. Children that do not learn discipline and learn to curb their IDs are more likely to end up in jail, in fights, alone or in cultures of drugs, sex and other hedonistic pursuits.
It makes NO sense to those who believe (for some odd reason) that "hell" is some place you or your immortal spirit ( I intentionally used "spirit" here because "soul" almost always refers to "personality") goes to to be tortured for eternity.

 

[KCDAD]

By the way... a rod was a measuring device... like a yard stick... perhaps this is a metaphorical expression saying parrents should instill standards for behavior and hold their children up to these standards.

 

[katallasso]

We have discussed reconciliation, it takes cooperation from both parties. In Christ is the offer of reconciliation, it must be accepted. Not if you are Almighty God, if He wants to reconcile the world He has created He is well able.
"...who is the savior of all men" Yes, Jesus is an equal oppertunity savior, He died for all, provided you accept Him by faith as savior. To believe anything less is to live in contradiction of scripture.
Your quote of 1corinthians 3:15 sheds much more light, in context.
1 cor 3:10-13; "...But let each one take heed how he builds on it."
"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
"Now if any one builds on this foundation..."
"each one's work will become clear; for the day will declare it, because it will be revieled by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is."
vs. 15 "if any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;..."
It begins with a foundation in the form of faith in Jesus, if his works mean nothing and do not hold up, he himself will be saved by faith in Jesus.
You have yet to show how Universalism is supported by scripture concerning faith, not belief, faith. Who said there was not faith? It takes belief in the scriptures and faith in an Almighty God to perform them.
All will someday know He is Lord, and bow before Him. But if they die without faith; without accepting salvation; they will not enter into eternal Life.
They go to the fire, and that is permanent.
There are no other options.

No hell is not eternal, this doctrine is a hold over from pagan religions that jews got caught up in worshiping false gods and christians got caught up in doing the same when Constantine brought in all the pagans without true conversion.

 

[timlamb]

No hell is not eternal, this doctrine is a hold over from pagan religions that jews got caught up in worshiping false gods and christians got caught up in doing the same when Constantine brought in all the pagans without true conversion.

KCDAD, the belief that hell is here on earth is so far from scripture, it isn't even Universalist.

katallasso, if you die without faith in Christ, you do not go to heaven; perhaps the most basic Christian principle.
All who do not choose Jesus, go away from God forever. Where is faith in this reform school afterlife you teach.
What ever you believe about hell, you are not saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH, if you die in unbelief. If you teach other than this, you teach false doctine
timlamb