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Yes, God sent Jesus to give us the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to die in order to initiate it. That (a chance at an eternal life) was done out of grace. The choice is still ours whether to go with His will or stick to our own. Most seem to want to have it both ways,Salvation is of Grace
Yes, this is a good way to view the truth of the situation.Yes, God sent Jesus to give us the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to die in order to initiate it. That
(a chance at an eternal life) was done out of grace. The choice is still ours whether to go with His will or stick to our own.
Most seem to want to have it both ways,
You don't get it do you? Salvation is of Grace and not of works!
Yes, God sent Jesus to give us the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to die in order to initiate it.
You don't get it do you? Salvation is of Grace and not of works!
You don't get it do you? Salvation is of Grace and not of works!
No I am saying that the Kingdom would serve no purpose without a worthy King. (and His Kingdom is not yet of this world simply because God wasn't done with the Hebrew people. yet. All the times He punished them for not obeying. This was the ultimate slight they would still have to pay for before the Kingdom comes)Are you saying Israel could not have believed he is their promised Messiah, without him dying?
No I am saying that the Kingdom would serve no purpose without a worthy King. (and His Kingdom is not yet of this world)
They believed because of Grace.
Well, I first wanted to say thank you for being kind with me. Also, thank you for taking a stand in how we need to obey the Lord as a part of being in God's kingdom.
Anyways, to get down to business: I believe that faith can refer to a belief alone that then manifests itself as the work of faith. I say this because James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and because James says “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24). When James refers to “works” here, he is talking about the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. When James refers to faith in context to works, he is referring to the 1st aspect of our salvation that we need to have in Jesus. A belief or trust in the Lord as our Savior and a belief in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. So naturally faith starts off as a belief and or trust in Jesus in being saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law. We throw ourselves down before the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ and call out to Him for salvation (Romans 10:13). We believe in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That to me is the gospel. But the gospel does call us. It calls us in.... God having chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Surely the gospel call is not the same thing as the gospel. A call of the gospel and the gospel are two different things.
I agree. Faithfulness would be the best way to understand the fruit of the Spirit called “faith.”
I believe the same can be said for Hebrews 11. It would be both a belief or trust in God plus faith in action (faithfulness).
I again believe the full version of the gospel to be what Paul told us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
I agree that faith (belief or trust in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and in God's grace and mercy) manifests itself as the work of faith (or faithfulness), which is a part of the faith. I believe this kind of faith is what also saves, as well. 1 John 1:7 is a big one for me that proves this truth clearly.
If we walk in the light (a work of faith) (i.e. loving our brother as we abide in God), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (i.e. salvation).
I believe we cannot put the cart (work of faith) before the horse (Being saved by God's grace and mercy and by believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). For this type of faith is the kind that is without the deeds of the Law. It is the first aspect of salvation that is focused on the grace of God. For this is what the Pharisee failed to see in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. He wanted to make it all about works, when he himself needed to be like the Tax Collector and cry out to the Lord in seeking forgiveness over his sins. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).
May the Lord's good ways always be upon you.
Actually, when I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.
#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.) (Note: The best way to describe the Provisional Atonement is like a man who paid the price to pay off your debts by his handing you a check to be debt free; But it is up to you to receive the check, deposit it into your checking account, and pay off those you are in debt to; It's a gift, but like all good gifts in life, you have to receive the gift and use it properly to be of any benefit). Jesus provided an atonement, but it is up to us to receive it to personally apply to our lives by having a proper faith. Men will remain as sinners if they reject the Provisional Atonement of Jesus Christ.
#2. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).
#3. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).
#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and by properly applying the Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).
Conclusion:
God's grace, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are saved by His grace, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.
This is gross error. People are saved by Grace ! Nothing about a chance !Yes, God sent Jesus to give us the Gospel of the Kingdom, and to die in order to initiate it. That (a chance at an eternal life) was done out of grace. The choice is still ours whether to go with His will or stick to our own. Most seem to want to have it both ways,
I dont have to explain them, Salvation is of Grace Eph 2:5,8-9If you are correct, then how do you explain the verses I presented?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:No. You don't get it, friend. After we are saved by God's grace through faith, works of faith as a part of our Sanctification play a part in God's plan of salvation for us. Just check out the following short list of verses.
- We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
- Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
- A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
- Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
- Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
- We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
- Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
- Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
- Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
- Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
- If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
- Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
For in my opinion, these above verses (if read plainly) are undisputable in that I have to be faithful until death as a part of receiving the crown of life.
Then Grace was the operative cause/reason why they believed !True
Yet it is true.The only “must” I see is in your comment. It’s not in the verses you posted.
What if we are not walking unto the good works, that God hath before ordained that we should walk in?Paul isnt here teaching conditional work salvation, you are, and its anti biblical. Salvation is 100% by Grace apart from works Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Even Faith is of Grace, we believe by Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed[Faith] through grace:
Faith to believe doesnt come from man, but because of Grace !
Then Grace was the operative cause/reason why they believed !
Not talking about good works, they are relevant post Salvation. Salvation is unto good works and not because of good works. Salvation is of Grace alone !What if we are not walking unto the good works, that God hath before ordained that we should walk in?
(Eph 2:10 [KJV])
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is by Grace through Faith Eph 2:8, the Saved believed because of Grace Acts 18:27You have seen already how God accredited righteousness to Abraham because he believed God.
Romans 4:3 (WEB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]
And we know faith is not a work - rather the GIFT is accredited to those who believe:
Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
In all the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, God offers His grace to all people.
God reasons with us, and calls us to repentance, but God never states or teaches anywhere that grace causes anyone to believe.
You quote the following Scripture as follows:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You quote it as if that is your proof.
However, "Ephesians 2:8-9," although unclear by itself as to what "not of yourselves" is referring to - whether to the grace of salvation offered, or to grace and faith, all the other Scriptures make clear what is meant.
We access all God's power and all God's grace through faith. So the grace of God is not of ourselves, rather it is the gift of God to those who believe.
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 1:16-17 (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
John 3:14-18 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
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