"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

[aiki]

As a Christian, that you appear to believe you are,

Oh, I KNOW I'm a true child of God: I encounter the Spirit at work in my life every day, just in the way Scripture says every genuinely born-again person will.

No one disagrees with these Passages. God does provide a way out, but that does not guarantee that we will take that way out.

This wasn't the conclusion I drew from the passage.

Obviously God provided a way out, but not all of them will be obedient to the faith. And, as the Scriptures keep warning, some will be tempted beyond recovery and will fall away.

These are always the never-were-born-again folk, not the truly born-again, given life and power by the Holy Spirit to endure to the end.

That is your belief, but not from God.

Sanctification is never optional.
Obedience is never optional.

That is a doctrine straight from the pit of hell.

Hyperbolic language isn't going to make up for the faultiness of your view.

Maybe you could practice understanding words and ideas in their context by going back and doing so with my own words. Your Strawman here isn't fooling anyone.

God ransoms those who believe demonstrated by living holy, sanctified lives before him. There is no middle ground, no option to live unholy lives in any way.

*Sigh* "Optional" in what sense? Sin is always an option for every person, saved or not. And, sometimes, the saved person chooses it. You'd say, it seems, that such a person has lost their salvation as a consequence. I would say that, though the saved person has chosen the sin option, they remain in God's family, their salvation standing upon the divine perfection and perfect atoning work of Christ and not their own necessarily imperfect attempts at obedience.

Am I saying, then, that a Christian can sin if they like, without qualm or consequence? Of course not. I've made this abundantly clear already in this thread, though you've tried here to make out as though I haven't (which is why your "pit of hell" rhetoric just sounds silly).

1 Peter 1:14-18 (NIV)
14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors

No mention here of lost salvation. Just an apostolic injunction to Christians to live as people who have been redeemed: holy and reverently in awe of God. Is there a "live holy or else" statement in this passage? Nope. Just a "live who you are" command (not a "live so as to be" command).

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

I'm assuming you think "death" in verse 15 means "lost salvation." Does it? Or could it mean, as it so often does in Scripture, "separation"? This is how I understand the idea of "death" in the verse. The first thing that "dies" in a believer's life when they sin isn't their relationship to God as His child - salvation - but their fellowship, their intimate communion, with Him. Sin halts fellowship, as it did the fellowship of father and son in the story of the Prodigal Son. Just as the son never ceased to be his father's son no matter where or what he did, the Christian never ceases to be the Father's child, no matter where they go or what they do. But the Christian's fellowship with God "dies" - it halts - when the Christian strays into sin. There can be no intimate communion between the believer and their heavenly Father so long as the believer is in the "far country" of sin. (Psalms 66:18; Isaiah 59:2; 1 Peter 3:12)

And so, here again, I've considered two more passages you've offered as grounds for your saved-and-lost, works-salvation doctrine and found them void of any such doctrine.

Go ahead and keep believing that obedience to God is optional.

Go ahead and keep believing that sanctification unto God is optional.

But don't promote your false doctrines on a Christian Message board where people come to here to learn the Gospel of Lord Jesus.

Really? Do you feel better now? Goodness. I guess if good argument can't help your case, stoop to Strawman arguing and self-righteous denouncement...

 

[Brightfame52]

set777

I only accept the Bible as God's Truth.

I cant see that friend !

 

[setst777]

If you receive from the Spirit all you need to endure, then you are saying, essentially, what I am: The Spirit enables the believer to endure; such endurance is not initiated nor sustained by the believer. Obligation doesn't come into it, only love and the life of the Spirit to whom one submits throughout every day.

So you say. The Scriptures teach that the one in whom the Spirit indwells is obligated to live by the Spirit or they will die - they will not receive eternal life.

Therefore, as Christians, we are obligated to put to death the deeds of the body, and put on the new man by the Spirit of Christ in us to have life.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Writing to the Church in Galatia
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Ephesians 4:20-24 (WEB) 20 But you didn’t learn Christ that way, 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

Yet you say sanctification and obedience to the faith in our Lord Jesus is optional. There is no such thing as optional sanctification and obedience of the faith - temporary or otherwise.

And what of God's faithfulness to us? As the story of God and the unbelieving, faithless Israelites at the border of the Promised Land shows very clearly, God remains faithful to His own even when they are faithless. The Israelites lost out on the blessing of God by shrinking back from Canaan, but they never lost their relationship to Him.

So you say.

If you do not live a holy life before God, the relationship is lost. Yet you say sanctification and obedience of the faith is optional.

1 John 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Since you say sanctification and obedience of the faith is optional, I believe 1 John 2:3-6 is speaking directly to you.

John 15:10-11 (WEB)
10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Relationship lost if you do not continue to take up your cross and follow Jesus in to a holy life.

If it is the Spirit who causes a person to endure, who imparts to them all they need to be who God wants them to be (Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13, etc.), what is to be said about those in whom the life of the Spirit is not evident? Obviously, that the Spirit is not in them - and never has been.

The Spirit does not cause a person to endure. No such Scripture.

You are commanded to endure by faith, living and walking by His Spirit. As you do so, the Spirit gives you life.

You use the word "enable," as well, and that too is unscriptural in the way you toss that word around.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Then you quote Scriptures, and no nothing about the Scriptures you quote. You lack any Spiritual discernment. As in the following:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The context is about anti-Christs. There are many who were in the faith, who fell away. I quoted those Scriptures to you. Then you quote a Scripture about anti-Christs. Go figure??? Do you know anything about reading Scripture in context?

Matthew 7:17-20
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

IF you repented and believe in Jesus, demonstrated in denying yourself and obeying Lord Jesus, the Spirit indwells you.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

If you continue obeying Lord Jesus by walking in His Spirit, you are a Good Tree bearing good fruit and you will live.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

You want to say that a person may be saved and then lose their spiritual birth and adoption into God's family by dint of their own failure to endure

That is what the Scriptures warn the Christians.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Writing to the Church in Galatia
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

I shall respond to you here after your own manner:

Oh good. Let's see how you misquote God's holy Word to try to prove the Scriptures I quoted are false. I doubt you have Spiritual discernment.

Romans 12:3
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

"Romans 12:3-8" are discussing Spiritual Gifts to Believers who are already in the Body of Christ by faith. The "measure of faith" is the faith necessary to operate in the unique gift God gives each believer in the body of Christ. Read the context.

2 Timothy 2:25
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

You are not reading the context again.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

The Passage regards those who were in the faith (recover themselves), but began to oppose Timothy. Those who continually oppose God is deliberate sin. God may harden such Christians so they cannot recover. Such Christians will be judged more severely then a non-believer.

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

As you can see, God will Judge His people more severely than the non-Christian if they deliberately keep sinning, because they were saved and should have known better.

For instance, you believe and teach others that sanctification and obedience to the faith is optional, and so you oppose God's Holy Word.

Acts 14:27
27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

At the time, the Jews had thought that Lord Jesus only came to save the Israel, which He did at first. But, Lord Jesus made it know to them, though Peter, that to the Gentiles also God grants repentance onto life, just as the Jews.

So there is no favoritism with God.

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB)
34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

God calls all people to salvation without favoritism:

Isaiah 45:22-23 (WEB) 22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

John 12:47 (WEB) 47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (WEB)
19 … God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11 (WEB) 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

These are fruits of the Spirit to those who have the Spirit indwelling them by faith. The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith. John 15:1-10

1 Timothy 1:14
14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

Grace and love are found in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13
13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

True.

Hebrews 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Lord Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of faith. He is the Author of faith, because He is our perfect example whom we are to follow to receive eternal life.

1 John 2:5-6
5 This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

By faithfully walking as Jesus walked, we remain in Christ, and our faith is being perfected as we live out our faith, carrying our cross, living by His Spirit.

These are such easy to understand Passages, that it makes we wonder how you could so badly misunderstand them. So that makes me wonder on what grounds you base your faith.

My faith is not anchored in my own vacillating, human faith, but in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, whose faith is infinite and eternally unfailing. Filled with his faith, I endure in the faith, rooted and built up and established in it by his power and work in me.

Your faith appears to be anchored in a false sense of security in which sanctification and obedience to Lord Jesus is optional, yet guaranteed by God. That is not the faith of the Gospel.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[aiki]

Our walking in newness of life is not guaranteed, because that is up to each individual.

No, sir. Our newness of life is given to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, who comes to us in fullness and permanency at the moment we, by faith, are made perfectly righteous in Christ, sanctified fully by him. The Spirit takes up residence within the believer, making the believer a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), fully accepted by God in the Beloved (Ephesians 1:6), who is Jesus. These things are done to the believer, not accomplished by the believer. It is not, then, up to the individual to walk in newness of life; they already have, in Christ, newness of life AND SO they walk in it. This is Christianity 101. Why don't you know this? Who has been teaching you so badly?

The Gospel Faith is demonstrated by walking in newness of life by the Spirit (Romans 6:4-6; Romans 6:19-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9).

Yes, it is. Right. But demonstrating one's spiritual regeneration is not the same as manufacturing one's spiritual regeneration, which you seem to be proposing. I reflect in my living the fact of my new life in Christ, but I never produce that new life.

The reason this is true is because Scripture teaches that the Christian’ obligation is to continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23), demonstrated by living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit to reap eternal life (Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:24-25; Galatians 6:7-9).

Not obligation. Joy. Love. But not obligation. "Obligation" is the word of the legalist and moralist; it is the motivation of duty, a wearying burden borne, not a joyful expression of love. (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19)

It is as the natural by-product of a submitted life filled with the Spirit that continuing in the faith occurs. Sowing to the Spirit is the Spirit's work in the believer, not the work of the believer for the Spirit. Such sowing is as natural to the believer living in daily surrender to the Spirit as the fruit that appears on the branches of a healthy, mature apple tree.

We live, walk, and sow to the Spirit as we deny the old master of sin

No, we live as you describe because we live by faith in the truth of our co-crucifixion with Christ (Romans 6:11), by which we have been made "dead unto sin but alive unto God." We simply live out what God has accomplished for us in and through Christ. Self-denial is simply the natural by-product of doing so.

As we live out our faith in this manner, the Spirit leads us and empowers us to keep our faith commitment to our Lord. This is the new life of the faith by which the indwelling Spirit leads us.

Goodness, no. This puts you at the center of your walk with God. Your way is a Self-centered counterfeit of the actual way to walk with God. It has everything exactly backward: The Spirit regenerates, empowers, and transforms and then, as a result, you "live out your faith." The Spirit changes you as you live in submission to him throughout every day, and his changes in you manifest in a holy, vibrant, joyful walk with God. You merely receive the life of the Spirit, remain by faith in the truth of who you are in him, and reflect his transforming work in you in a holy, Christ-centered life.

Your way makes you the linch-pin of your walk with God, the crucial deciding factor in your being and remaining saved, and the one accomplishing a holy life. This is the way Self attempts to live for God, which is always evident in how YOU make everything hang on your endurance, your force of will, your ability to be holy, rather than on Christ. Scripture, however is very clear on how destitute we are of the necessary power to do anything that pleases God:

John 15:4-5
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Romans 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Romans 7:22-25
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

The Scriptures keep showing us the Gospel Faith by which we are now “in Christ.” By being in Christ, we are a new creation – indwelt by the Spirit though a Gospel faith into a new reason for living, and a new hope - a sanctified, holy life of righteousness before God.

Yes, exactly. Preach it!

 

[setst777]

set777


I cant see that friend !

Sorry you can't see the Bible.

 

[setst777]

No, sir. Our newness of life is given to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, who comes to us in fullness and permanency at the moment we, by faith, are made perfectly righteous in Christ, sanctified fully by him.

The Spirit indwells those who repent and, by faith, deny themsevles and commit to obey and follow Jesus. This is the faith that results in a new life in the Spirit.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) Italics and bolding mine
15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 Therefore (for this reason) if anyone is in Christ (by faith), he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

We are “in Christ” by faith - denying self, and living to serve Jesus. That is when the new creation begins.

The Gospel Faith by which God saves us is revealed in 2 Corinthians 5:15

“15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again”

This is the same teaching we saw in Romans 6:1-5; Ephesians 3:17-32; Colossians 3:1-17; Galatians 5:13-25; Galatians 6:7-9; James 1:12-16, and so many more Scriptures throughout the New Testament, many of which were quoted or referenced for you in this study.

The Scriptures keep showing us the Gospel Faith by which we are now “in Christ” - denying self, and living for Jesus. By being in Christ like this, we are a new creation – indwelt by the Spirit though a Gospel faith into a new reason for living, and a new hope.

Since you believe that sanctification and obedience to the faith is optional, how could you know anything about the indwelling Spirit?

It is the natural by-product of a submitted life filled with the Spirit, that continuing in the faith occurs. Sowing to the Spirit is the Spirit's work in the believer, not the work of the believer for the Spirit. Such sowing is as natural to the believer living in daily surrender to the Spirit as the fruit that appears on the branches of a healthy, mature apple tree.

Sowing is the Spirit's work???

Not according to God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

"natural by-product of a submitted life filled with the Spirit"???

There is nothing natural about it.

The Scriptures describe faith onto salvation
as:

• a test (2 Corinthians 13:5; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:6-7),
• as athletes in training for a race (1 Corinthians 9:23-25; Hebrews 12:1-4),
• an intense striving (Philippians 1:27; Luke 13:22-27; 1 Corinthians 9:26-27; 1 Timothy 4:8-10; Hebrews 4:11-14),
• a good fight and a spiritual battle (1 Timothy 6:11-12; Ephesians 6:10-18),
• a continual sacrifice of ourselves (Romans 12:1-2; Galatians 5:24),
• a continual readiness (Matthew 24:42-44)
• watchfulness, (Matthew 25:13; Luke 12:35-40; Luke 21:34-36; Revelation 3:3; Revelation 16:15),
• being always alert and sober with Godly fear (1 Peter 1:13-19; 1 Peter 5:8)
• so that by living out our faith in this way, we may not be deceived and be lost (Galatians 6:7-9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 2 Corinthians 11:3)
• or disqualified (2 Corinthians 13:5),
• or rejected (1 Corinthians 9:27; Hebrews 12:14-17)
• or cut off (John 15:1-10; Romans 11:19-22),
• but rather, that we may be counted worthy to inherit the gracious free gift of eternal life (Revelation 3:1-5; Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Matthew 10:38-39; James 1:12; Revelation 3:11).

You really do not know what being in the faith is all about.

No, we live as you describe because we live by faith in the truth of our co-crucifixion with Christ (Romans 6:11), by which we have been made "dead unto sin but alive unto God." We simply live out what God has accomplished for us in and through Christ. Self-denial is simply the natural by-product of doing so.

"simply live out"???
"natural by-product"???

That is not taught in God's Word. Remaining faithful is a continuous struggle against our flesh, against the all the dark forces that surround us, and spiritual wickedness that test, prove, and refine our faith as through fire.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

John 15:4-5
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

"John 15:10" is part of the explanation of that Parable:

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

You say that sanctification and obedience is optional.

To abide in Christ, we see that obedience is not optional, but is essential to remain in the Love of Jesus.

Romans 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

True. That is the Gospel (John 3:16). What is the point you are making?

1 Corinthians 1:27-31
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

God has chosen to teach and save the humble because they will listen.

Psalm 25:9-10 (WEB)
9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way. 10 All the paths of Yahweh are loving kindness and truth, to such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Matthew 11:28 (WEB)
28 “Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Luke 18:9-14 (NIV)
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Romans 7:22-25
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

The answer to this dilemma is Romans 8.

Read the context.

 

[aiki]

So you say. The Scriptures teach that the one in whom the Spirit indwells is obligated to live by the Spirit or they will die - they will not receive eternal life.

Therefore, as Christians, we are obligated to put to death the deeds of the body, and put on the new man by the Spirit of Christ in us to have life.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Does Paul stop at verse 14? Nope.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

If mere obligation is the motivation for Christian obedience, for living by the Spirit, why does Paul go on to explain that believers have not been given the spirit of slavery and fear, but the spirit of adoption by which Christians may speak of God as their Father and themselves as co-heirs with Christ? Paul does not stop at obligation, as you seem to do, as the motivation for Christian living, but describes an intimate child-parent relationship the believer has with God in Christ as the ground for their living in the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Writing to the Church in Galatia
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Ephesians 4:20-24 (WEB) 20 But you didn’t learn Christ that way, 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

"Obligation" does not appear in either of these passages. In the first, from Galatians, Paul simply describes two different kinds of people: the fleshly, lost person who sows to their flesh and the spiritual, saved person who sows to the Spirit. No mention of obligation.

The quotation from Ephesians enjoins action, but it doesn't indicate obligation as a motive for that action. So, here, once again, you offer Scripture that doesn't help your case any.

Yet you say sanctification and obedience to the faith in our Lord Jesus is optional. There is no such thing as optional sanctification and obedience of the faith - temporary or otherwise.

Strawman.

So you say.

If you do not live a holy life before God, the relationship is lost. Yet you say sanctification and obedience of the faith is optional.

The story of God's preservation of His Chosen People in the wilderness for forty years is in the record of Scripture, setst777. Just read Numbers from chapter 15 onward. The Israelites rebelled against God and lost out on the Promised Land but God continued with them regardless. God does the very same thing with His adopted-in-Christ children, too, and for the very same reason: He is a faithful God who fulfills His promise independent of the conduct or character of those to whom He has made a promise.

Since you say sanctification and obedience of the faith is optional, I believe 1 John 2:3-6 is speaking directly to you.

John 15:10-11 (WEB)
10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Relationship lost if you do not continue to take up your cross and follow Jesus in to a holy life.

More Strawman.

The Spirit does not cause a person to endure. No such Scripture.

Yes, he does. There is no other way by which a Christian can live out the Christian life. God must first work into the believer all that the believer works out.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

You use the word "enable," as well, and that too is unscriptural in the way you toss that word around.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

This passage actually confirms the idea of the Spirit enabling a believer. How does the believer "put to death the misdeeds of the body"? By their self-will, by their unwavering determination to do so? Nope. By the Spirit. The Spirit imparts to the believer in himself the capacity to put to death the misdeeds of the body.

You lack any Spiritual discernment.

Uh huh. It's all from the "pit of hell," right, so what did you expect?

The context is about anti-Christs. There are many who were in the faith, who fell away. I quoted those Scriptures to you. Then you quote a Scripture about anti-Christs. Go figure??? Do you know anything about reading Scripture in context?

Amusing. Pot calling the kettle black, I think.

Where were the "anti-Christs"? John wrote, "They went out from us...". Those bearing the spirit of anti-Christ were among the brethren, "false brethren" Paul called them, or the "tares" of which Jesus spoke. And they revealed that they were by finally exiting the community of believers - as do many of those thinking they are saved when they are not, who find they cannot understand nor live the Christian life without the power of God which, being unsaved, they don't possess.

So, it looks to me like you're the one who hasn't rightly understood the verse.

"Romans 12:3-8" are discussing Spiritual Gifts to Believers who are already in the Body of Christ by faith. The "measure of faith" is the faith necessary to operate in the unique gift God gives each believer in the body of Christ. Read the context.

Does the faith come from God, however you want to color it? Yup.

You are not reading the context again.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

The Passage regards those who were in the faith (recover themselves), but began to oppose Timothy. Those who continually oppose God is deliberate sin. God may harden such Christians so they cannot recover. Such Christians will be judged more severely then a non-believer.

None of this counters or diminishes Paul's statement that it is "God who gives repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." Those who recover themselves do so because God has granted them repentance. This is clearly stated in the verse. Does Paul say one word in verses 24-26 about God hardening Christians so that they cannot recover themselves from the devil's snare? Nope. This is all your eisegetical addition to the verse. So, it seems I'm not the one who is failing to understand the verse...

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

As you can see, God will Judge His people more severely than the non-Christian if they deliberately keep sinning, because they were saved and should have known better.

Nope. Already explained in this thread that this passage is speaking to, and of, false brethren in the Church.

For instance, you believe and teach others that sanctification and obedience to the faith is optional, and so you oppose God's Holy Word.

Strawman.

At the time, the Jews had thought that Lord Jesus only came to save the Israel, which He did at first. But, Lord Jesus made it know to them, though Peter, that to the Gentiles also God grants repentance onto life, just as the Jews.

So there is no favoritism with God.

Right. And the verse also indicates that God opened a "door of faith" to the Gentiles.

These are fruits of the Spirit to those who have the Spirit indwelling them by faith. The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith. John 15:1-10

And from where does the fruit of faithfulness come? The Holy Spirit. Who is God.

Grace and love are found in Christ Jesus.

As is faith, too. As Paul clearly wrote.

Lord Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of faith. He is the Author of faith, because He is our perfect example whom we are to follow to receive eternal life.

Nope. Jesus is Author of both the faith and my faith - as Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 1:14 and 2 Timothy 1:13.

1 John 2:5-6
5 This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

By faithfully walking as Jesus walked, we remain in Christ, and our faith is being perfected as we live out our faith, carrying our cross, living by His Spirit.

These are such easy to understand Passages, that it makes we wonder how you could so badly misunderstand them. So that makes me wonder on what grounds you base your faith.

It doesn't really work - your "wonder" - when you so badly and obviously wrench and misunderstand Scripture. As far as I'm concerned, you "wonder" precisely because of such poor mishandling of God's word.

Here, again, you've got things reversed, making the manifestation of a new life the means of that new life. This thinking doesn't work with apple trees and it doesn't work with the Christian life, either.

Your faith appears to be anchored in a false sense of security in which sanctification and obedience to Lord Jesus is optional, yet guaranteed by God. That is not the faith of the Gospel.

Yes, you've said as much. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, however in error it is.

 

[setst777]

These are always the never-were-born-again folk, not the truly born-again, given life and power by the Holy Spirit to endure to the end.

All the Scriptures I quoted for you about enduring to the end, and those who fell away from the faith, were all written Epistles to the Churches for their admonition and warning. So if someone who was in the faith, and falls away, YOU say they were never in the faith to begin with, but that is not what God's Word states.

Your Strawman here isn't fooling anyone.

I see a strawman

*Sigh* "Optional" in what sense? Sin is always an option for every person, saved or not. And, sometimes, the saved person chooses it. You'd say, it seems, that such a person has lost their salvation as a consequence. I would say that, though the saved person has chosen the sin option, they remain in God's family, their salvation standing upon the divine perfection and perfect atoning work of Christ and not their own necessarily imperfect attempts at obedience.

You believe sin is optional before God. Sin is not optional to God at all. God commands us to be holy and obedient to remain in His love - that is what God redeemed us for.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

1 Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45] 17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

As long as you see sin and sanctification as optional before God you will never understand what it means to be saved.

 

[Clare73]

Despite the universal appeal of John 3:16, its important for Christians to be aware that John was an apostle of the circumcision, to the circumcision, as stated in Galatians 2:7-9.

We are to take our salvation doctrine from Paul, as agreed by John too in Galatians 2.

No such agreement existed.
It's the same gospel, taken to the Jews by James, Peter and John, and to the Gentiles by Paul.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free in the NT, all are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

What's this "take our salvation doctrine from Paul?"
Where is that stated in the NT?
Who is making these contra-Biblical rules?

The church, both Jew and Gentile, is to take its doctrine from the whole NT.

Where is this contra-Biblical divide coming from?

Beware, brethren! This is is a shipwreck of the faith (1 Timothy 1:19, 1 Timothy 4:16).

 

[Brightfame52]

Sorry you can't see the Bible.

lol, Your imagination certainly isnt the bible friend.

 

[setst777]

Nope.

If mere obligation is the motivation for Christian obedience, for living by the Spirit, why does Paul go on to explain that believers have not been given the spirit of slavery and fear, but the spirit of adoption by which Christians may speak of God as their Father and themselves as co-heirs with Christ?

I will explain it to you. The verse about ‘adoption as sons,’ and ‘not giving us a spirit of slavery and fear,’ are for those who remain in the faith, revealing their love for Jesus by obeying His commands.

A Christian who is watchful and careful to follow Lord Jesus has nothing to fear if he remain faithful, living as obedient children. Those “Christians” who think obedience and sanctification onto God are optional are the ones who need to fear. And if they do not fear, that means God has hardened their hearts so they will never understand.

setst777 said: ↑
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Writing to the Church in Galatia
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Ephesians 4:20-24 (WEB) 20 But you didn’t learn Christ that way, 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

"Obligation" does not appear in either of these passages. In the first, from Galatians, Paul simply describes two different kinds of people: the fleshly, lost person who sows to their flesh and the spiritual, saved person who sows to the Spirit. No mention of obligation.

The quotation from Ephesians enjoins action, but it doesn't indicate obligation as a motive for that action. So, here, once again, you offer Scripture that doesn't help your case any.

Thanks for sharing that. I didn’t mention obligation in the quote of me you shared. Do you think because “obligation” is not written in those verses that “sowing to the Spirit” and ‘putting on the new man’ are optional for your salvation? If not, why bring it up?

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, WE have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

setst777 said: ↑
Yet you say sanctification and obedience to the faith in our Lord Jesus is optional. There is no such thing as optional sanctification and obedience of the faith - temporary or otherwise.

Strawman.

You must be the strawman then, because you are the one who states and teaches it.

setst777 said: ↑
So you say.

If you do not live a holy life before God, the relationship is lost. Yet you say sanctification and obedience of the faith is optional.

The story of God's preservation of His Chosen People in the wilderness for forty years is in the record of Scripture, setst777.

I don’t see that being taught at all – just the opposite.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (WEB)
1 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Don’t be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:6]
8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell.
9 Let us not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents.
10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

setst777 said: ↑
The Spirit does not cause a person to endure. No such Scripture.

Yes, he does. There is no other way by which a Christian can live out the Christian life. God must first work into the believer all that the believer works out.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God, through His Spirit is working in us to do His will, which is the reason for us to fear and tremble. I don’t see God causing anyone to endure in that Passage. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that God is working in us.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, WE have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

setst777 said: ↑
You use the word "enable," as well, and that too is unscriptural in the way you toss that word around.

This passage actually confirms the idea of the Spirit enabling a believer. How does the believer "put to death the misdeeds of the body"? By their self-will, by their unwavering determination to do so? Nope. By the Spirit. The Spirit imparts to the believer in himself the capacity to put to death the misdeeds of the body.

You are using the word “enable” as if the Spirit was “causing.” That is not the correct use of “enable” in the Scriptures. You have to read the context to understand that.

Where were the "anti-Christs"? John wrote, "They went out from us”

Just read the context. Paul is addressing the “little children” (believers) about the end times and anti-Christs.

1 John 2:18-19 (WEB)
18 Little children, these are the end times, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

setst777 said: ↑
You are not reading the context again.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

The Passage regards those who were in the faith (recover themselves), but began to oppose Timothy. Those who continually oppose God is deliberate sin. God may harden such Christians so they cannot recover. Such Christians will be judged more severely then a non-believer.

 

[setst777]

None of this counters or diminishes Paul's statement that it is "God who gives repentance

“gives” does not mean a gift, but rather is a granting of repentance. In other words, this Christian who is opposing the message is in danger of God’s hardening, and so if perhaps God will still grant him repentance, then he has a chance to recover.

The way you are viewing it is against God’s own glory and will.

God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), and to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), and takes no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 33:11; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Matthew 23:37; Romans 10:21); however, God’s Sovereign will is to save whosoever will believe in His Son (John 6:39-40; John 3:16) – that is the condition, the Covenant.

God’s grace is offered to all through the Gospel, but the Scriptures clearly teach that a person appropriates that saving grace to himself by faith in Lord Jesus.

The ransom was paid for all (1 Timothy 2:6),
God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
and to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

We appropriate that grace, mercy, and ransom to ourselves by faith (John 3:16). That is the Gospel Covenant.

So to say that God mysteriously grants some the ability to repent and not others is not looking at the context of Scripture and is corrupting God’s glory as revealed in His Word.

setst777 said: ↑
Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

As you can see, God will Judge His people more severely than the non-Christian if they deliberately keep sinning, because they were saved and should have known better.

Nope. Already explained in this thread that this passage is speaking to, and of, false brethren in the Church.

So you say.

However “Hebrews 10:30” specifically states that “God will judge HIS people,” not "false brethren" as you assume onto the text.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” And these believers were sanctified by the blood of the covenant (verse 29).

Context is so very important.

setst777 said: ↑
For instance, you believe and teach others that sanctification and obedience to the faith is optional, and so you oppose God's Holy Word.

Strawman.

Those are your words. You said sanctification onto God is optional, and you said obedience to God is optional.

setst777 said: ↑
At the time, the Jews had thought that Lord Jesus only came to save the Israel, which He did at first. But, Lord Jesus made it know to them, though Peter, that to the Gentiles also God grants repentance onto life, just as the Jews.

So there is no favoritism with God.

Right. And the verse also indicates that God opened a "door of faith" to the Gentiles.

Yes, through Peter, God opened the door to the Gentiles for the preaching work. And that is why Peter also sent out Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles. This fulfills prophecy, in that the Messiah was to be a light to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 49:6 (WEB)
6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give you as a light to the nations, so that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

Context is so very important.

setst777 said: ↑
These are fruits of the Spirit to those who have the Spirit indwelling them by faith. The fruits of the Spirit are character traits of the believers: love (toward others), joy, peace (with others), kindness (to all), goodness (to others), faithfulness (trustworthy and faithful with others). These are all good fruits of a good tree - ones who already believe in Jesus, and remain in him by faith. John 15:1-10

And from where does the fruit of faithfulness come? The Holy Spirit. Who is God.

You finally got something right – that the Spirit is God. But that is about it. Only believers, have the Spirit indwelling them. The Christian bears the fruits of the Spirit as a result.

Context is so very important.

setst777 said: ↑
Lord Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of faith. He is the Author of faith, because He is our perfect example whom we are to follow to receive eternal life.

Nope. Jesus is Author of both the faith and my faith - as Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 1:14 and 2 Timothy 1:13.

The 1st Passages you listed is a salutary greetings. The other Passage is similar. Our faith and love are in Christ Jesus. That is all that is being stated. No one disagrees with that.

1 Timothy 1:14 (WEB)
14 The grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13 (WEB)
13 Hold the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

You can assume your own opinions onto those quotes, but your assumptions are your own. There are no Scriptures teaching that Jesus gives us our faith, rather, all the Scriptures teach, reason with, beg, warn, command, admonish that we are to believe in Lord Jesus to be saved, and remain faithful to the end to receive eternal life.

setst777 said: ↑
Your faith appears to be anchored in a false sense of security in which sanctification and obedience to Lord Jesus is optional, yet guaranteed by God. That is not the faith of the Gospel.

Yes, you've said as much. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, however in error it is.

IF you would pay attention to the context of Scripture, and quit assuming your own imaginary opinions onto texts, I think you may still not see, simply because you have shown that you do not understand the faith of the Gospel – repentance toward God, and faith in Lord Jesus. That is a continuing faith, which is your responsibility.

Yes, the Spirit indwells those who truly believe to lead us, but only as we follow - living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells us with fear and trembling.

 

[aiki]

There is no man so blind as he who will not see.

At this point, our exchange has degenerated into:

"No, it's not."
"Yes, it is."

"You're wrong."
"No, you are."

Signing off.

 

[Guojing]

No such agreement existed.
It's the same gospel, taken to the Jews by James, Peter and John, and to the Gentiles by Paul.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free in the NT, all are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

What's this "take our salvation doctrine from Paul?"
Where is that stated in the NT?
Who is making these contra-Biblical rules?

The church, both Jew and Gentile, is to take its doctrine from the whole NT.

Where is this contra-Biblical divide coming from?

Beware, brethren! This is is a shipwreck of the faith (1 Timothy 1:19, 1 Timothy 4:16).

Read Galatians 2:7-9 in the kjv and tell us, how many gospels are found there?

 

[Clare73]

Read Galatians 2:7-9 in the kjv and tell us, how many gospels are found there?

You've got to be kidding!

It's two different groups to whom "the gospel" is being taken, not "a gospel" to the Jews and "a gospel" to the Gentiles.

So according to dispensationalism, we not only have:
two second comings,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two bodies of Christ,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments,
two churches, one the body of Christ and one not (of dispensationalism),

we now we also have two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

And I thought all that was left was two Christ's. . .stay tuned for a dispensationalist near you.

 

[Guojing]

You've got to be kidding!

It's two different groups to whom "the gospel" is being taken, not "a gospel" to the Jews and "a gospel" to the Gentiles.

So according to dispensationalism, we not only have:
two second comings,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two bodies of Christ,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments,
two churches, one the body of Christ and one not (of dispensationalism),

we now we also have two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

And I though all that was left was two Christ's. . .stay tuned for a dispensationalist near you.

Are you going to quote the KJV and let us examine how many gospels you see there?

Or are you trying to force your own doctrine inside that passage?

 

[HIM]

Thank you for your message.

You have to understand how pronouns, nouns, subjects and objects are used together - not just comparing or matching genders.

A singular pronoun must refer to a singular masculine or neuter noun, or to an already-expressed concept (concepts do not possess gender, that is why its neuter) because modifiers must always agree with the words being modified.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, the gender and voice of the pronoun “this” – τουτο – is nominative singular neuter, in agreement with the number and voice of “gift of God”.

Nominative voice singular (ei: "this") is used exclusively for a singular subject, never an object or agent.

Therefore,

The subject is:

"gift"

"Through faith" is an object or agent by which the "gift" (the subject) is received.

"This" (TOUTO) is singular, and therefore, cannot be referring to both the subject and the agent.

And grammar will not allow "this" (TOUTO) to refer back to the agent, but rather ALWAYS to the subject: "Gift."

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your depth. Sorry for the lapse. We will address your post in parts. First....

Kai touto translates to "and that" in the clause, "and that not of yourselves" . The word "and" being a conjunction would connect the word "that" to what precedes. In this there is no argument. This would brings us back to Saved or faith. Gift is in reference to either faith or saved.


May the Lord our God continue to bless us in all His way, Jesus Christ

 

[setst777]

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your depth. Sorry for the lapse. We will address your post in parts. First....

Kai touto translates to "and that" in the clause, "and that not of yourselves" . The word "and" being a conjunction would connect the word "that" to what precedes. In this there is no argument. This would brings us back to Saved or faith. Gift is in reference to either faith or saved.


May the Lord our God continue to bless us in all His way, Jesus Christ

If we have to choose between "saved" or "faith" as the gift of God, then I would definitely go with "saved," since Scripture teaches us that salvation is the gift of God, and that we appropriate to ourselves that saving grace by a personal faith in Lord Jesus.

Blessings

 

[Clare73]

Are you going to quote the KJV and let us examine how many gospels you see there?

And why the KJV as opposed to say the NAS or NIV or RSV or. . .?

Does it translate Galatians 2:7-9 in support of your notion?

I will quote the Greek, the original language in which it is written:
"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted [with] the gospel of the uncircumcision as Peter of the circumcision. . .in order that we [should go] to the nations, but they to the circumcision."

Or are you trying to force your own doctrine inside that passage?

And if you are trying to force your own notion inside that passage by interpreting it to mean two different gospels, the gospel of Jesus for the Jews, and the teachings of Paul for the Gentiles, then you must demonstrate your notion from elsewhere in the NT, because your notion everywhere disagrees with Jesus, who says that
-he was sent to the world, not just to the Jews (John 17:18),
-his gospel will be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation/people (Gentiles) who will produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43),
-his disciples were to take his gospel to all nations, not just to the Jews, making disciples of them (Matthew 28:19),
-the Temple was to be a house of prayer for the nations, not just for the Jews (Mark 11:17),
-his gospel was to be preached to all nations, not just to the Jews (Mark 13:10),
-repentance and forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, not just to the Jews (Luke 24:47),
-his gospel is to be preached throughout the whole world, not just to the Jews (Matthew 26:13),
-he tells his gospel to the world, not just to the Jews (John 8:26),
-he was a light to the world, not just to the Jews (John 12:46),
-he was an example of love and obedience to the Father for the world, not just for the Jews (John 14:31),
-the unity of the apostles was to be a witness to the world, not just to the Jews, that he was sent by God (John 17:21, 23)
-he came into the world to testify to the truth, and everyone, on the side of truth, not just the Jews, listens to him (John 18:37).

Jesus everywhere rejects your notion that his gospel is only for/to the Jews, and thereby makes his gospel for/to the whole world, which gospel Peter, James and John took to the Jews, and Paul took to the Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

And why the KJV as opposed to say the NAS or NIV or RSV or. . .?

Does it translate Galatians 2:7-9 in support of your notion?

I will quote the Greek, the original language in which it is written:
"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted [with] the gospel of the uncircumcision as Peter of the circumcision. . .in order that we [should go] to the nations, but they to the circumcision."
And if you are trying to force your own notion inside that passage by interpreting it to mean two different gospels, the gospel of Jesus for the Jews, and the teachings of Paul for the Gentiles, then you must demonstrate your notion from elsewhere in the NT, because your notion everywhere disagrees with Jesus, who says that
-he was sent to the world, not just to the Jews (John 17:18),
-his gospel will be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation/people (Gentiles) who will produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43),
-his disciples were to take his gospel to all nations, not just to the Jews, making disciples of them (Matthew 28:19),
-the Temple was to be a house of prayer for the nations, not just for the Jews (Mark 11:17),
-his gospel was to be preached to all nations, not just to the Jews (Mark 13:10),
-repentance and forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, not just to the Jews (Luke 24:47),
-his gospel is to be preached throughout the whole world, not just to the Jews (Matthew 26:13),
-he tells his gospel to the world, not just to the Jews (John 8:26),
-he was a light to the world, not just to the Jews (John 12:46),
-he was an example of love and obedience to the Father for the world, not just for the Jews (John 14:31),
-the unity of the apostles was to be a witness to the world, not just to the Jews, that he was sent by God (John 17:21, 23)
-he came into the world to testify to the truth, and everyone, on the side of truth, not just the Jews, listens to him (John 18:37).

Jesus everywhere rejects your notion that his gospel is only for/to the Jews, and thereby makes his gospel for/to the whole world, which gospel Peter, James and John took to the Jews, and Paul took to the Gentiles.

If you don’t wish to use the kjv, just say so, then we can move on, agreeing to disagree