Half of Republicans would join Trump party, poll shows ahead of ex-president’s first speech since Wh

[MIDutch]

I certainly wish the moderates like Romney would leave.

They have been. You may want to learn WHY they are.

 

[rambot]

I certainly wish the moderates like Romney would leave.

The country is NOT as extreme as you. I ALSO hope Romney leaves to create a more moderate republican party; one that's grounded in reality.

 

[MIDutch]

Is the ENTIRE left deranged? Where is the line?

I will reiterate: most Americans have no clue what the left really is.

I believe they generally really think that anything left of trump's (fake) nationalistic political stance is "deranged".

In the global spectrum of political ideologies, Bernie Sanders is center left at most. He is advocating what MOST countries around the world already have. What the trump supporting far right calls communism. What countries like Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc. call living a pretty good, average life. You know, that evil liberal ability to have breakfast in Amsterdam, hop on an evil communist mass transit commuter train and have lunch in Brugge and dinner in Paris. How terrible would that be?

 

[cow451]

I certainly wish the moderates like Romney would leave.

The DNC would welcome these new members and shares your sentiment.

 

[rjs330]

Can you help me understand what you mean by "the deranged left". Becaues I'm on the left, but I'd wager I'm at least as smart as you.
And I'm certainly not deranged.

Is there a rubric for that? Is the ENTIRE left deranged? Where is the line?

Do you believe all Trump supporters are like those that attacked the capitol? Do you believe that the people in Dutch's post are the majority of Trump supporters?

 

[rambot]

Do you believe all Trump supporters are like those that attacked the capitol?

In some ways yes. But not many ways no.
I don't think all Trump supporters are prone to violence, no. I don't think all Trump supporters want to rip the country apart, no.
But there are yeses there.

Do you believe that the people in Dutch's post are the majority of Trump supporters?

Not sure which post to which you are referring.

Now that I've addressed your questions, could I get some feedback. If your opinion about my political leanings was important, I'd be hurt. But for now I'm more interested.

And as MIDutch points out, HUGE portions of the right in America view centrists as left leaning. It speaks to their lack of an objective lens.

 

[rjs330]

I will reiterate: most Americans have no clue what the left really is.

I believe they generally really think that anything left of trump's (fake) nationalistic political stance is "deranged".

In the global spectrum of political ideologies, Bernie Sanders is center left at most. He is advocating what MOST countries around the world already have. What the trump supporting far right calls communism. What countries like Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc. call living a pretty good, average life. You know, that evil liberal ability to have breakfast in Amsterdam, hop on an evil communist mass transit commuter train and have lunch in Brugge and dinner in Paris. How terrible would that be?

So you want America to be Europe. Except we aren't Europe. And we may not have trains, but we can fly anywhere in the country we want to for lunch and dinner. So, it's not so bad. You could have breakfast in Seattle then fly to Miami for dinner.

We don't want America to be European. You want Europe, go move there if it's so great.

 

[Albion]

I will reiterate: most Americans have no clue what the left really is.

I believe they generally really think that anything left of trump's (fake) nationalistic political stance is "deranged".

Interestingly enough, that's what many opponents of Trump say of his followers and of Trump himself.

Among Trump supporters, it's relatively uncommon to hear or read that said of either the political Left or of President Biden personally.

 

[rambot]

So you want America to be Europe. Except we aren't Europe. And we may not have trains, but we can fly anywhere in the country we want to for lunch and dinner. So, it's not so bad. You could have breakfast in Seattle then fly to Miami for dinner.

I think his point is that the cultural experience is more varied and interesting. Yes, Seattle is different from Miami. But to think that is comparable to amsterdam and Paris.....well, you may be missing out a bit.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Interestingly enough, that's what many opponents of Trump say of his followers and of Trump himself.

Among Trump supporters, it's relatively uncommon to hear or read that said of either the political Left or of President Biden himself.

It is a common tactic in debate called a straw man. The left is constantly "straw manning" Trump and his supporters such that they can attack it and most of their base has bought into the straw man image of him and his followers instead of reality. It makes it very easy to attack someone that you have been told is very evil than someone that is not any more evil than everyone that you know.

 

[rambot]

It is a common tactic in debate called a straw man. The left is constantly "straw manning" Trump and his supporters such that they can attack it and most of their base has bought into the straw man image of him and his followers instead of reality. It makes it very easy to attack someone that you have been told is very evil than someone that is not any more evil than everyone that you know.

No we don't.
We don't straw man Trump....at least not as a behaviour "PATTERN".

Do you have several examples?

 

[rjs330]

In some ways yes. But not many ways no.
I don't think all Trump supporters are prone to violence, no. I don't think all Trump supporters want to rip the country apart, no.
But there are yeses there.

Not sure which post to which you are referring.

Now that I've addressed your questions, could I get some feedback. If your opinion about my political leanings was important, I'd be hurt. But for now I'm more interested.

And as MIDutch points out, HUGE portions of the right in America view centrists as left leaning. It speaks to their lack of an objective lens.

The deranged left are those who stoop to violence to and destruction of property and those who participate in the cancel culture.

If one defends that activity one must question where one is. Why would we defend that kind of behavior? It only tears the country apart. There are yesses there as well.

If you support things that are anti constitution then you are more left than right. If you support a big controlling federal goverenment you are more left than right. If you support gigantic socialist programs then you are more left than right.
If you are for opening the borders you are more left than right. If you are for strict gun control you are more left than right. If you are for wokeness you are more left than right.

None of that makes you a bad person in the least. It's simply a political position. One is not evil or wicked for wanting large socialist programs. Or being woke. If you want strict gun control you are not evil or deranged. It's just a political position.

Violence should never be excused or tolerated from the right or the left. But if we are going to compare, far more people were injured or killed during the leftist violence over the last year in the riots than from right wing riots. That's not to downplay the right wing riot. It's just a factual representation.

 

[rjs330]

They have been. You may want to learn WHY they are.

They should go where they belong. If you are left wing then you should join the left wing.

 

[rjs330]

The country is NOT as extreme as you. I ALSO hope Romney leaves to create a more moderate republican party; one that's grounded in reality.

I think you'd be surprised. I'm not extreme. You have me confused with someone else. What makes you think I'm extreme? Give me the things I believe in that are extreme?

I bet I'm more every man than you realize.

 

[rjs330]

I think his point is that the cultural experience is more varied and interesting. Yes, Seattle is different from Miami. But to think that is comparable to amsterdam and Paris.....well, you may be missing out a bit.

America has as much cultural differences. It's a HUGE country. You have the southern culture, the Texas culture, the Montana culture, the Louisiana culture, the culture of Boston which is different than LA. Even states have different governing powers and laws. We have different dialects, different specialty foods and even different ways we do pizza! We also share a similarity of culture as well. I can go from Main to Texas and read every road sign.

No we don't speak a completely different language from one end of the country to the other. If the states were like Europe Every state would have a different language.

You see the difference is in our type of government. The states have a great responsibility to govern themselves. It was supposed to be that way. The fed was never supposed to control everything.

 

[rambot]

The deranged left are those who stoop to violence to and destruction of property and those who participate in the cancel culture.

First half. FAir enough. If you can help me understand the difference between "cancel culture" and holding people accountable for their actions, maybe I'd agree with that too. I've certainly seen some examples of cancel culture going too far. But then I've seen some republicans suggest that "cancel culture" is the reason insurrectionists are being targetted.

If one defends that activity one must question where one is. Why would we defend that kind of behavior? It only tears the country apart.

I wouldn't argue that "cancel culture" is tearing the country apart. I'd argue that people don't LIKE it though I could agree that there have been some examples that have not been.....approriate or helpful.

I'd argue what is tearing the country apart is when people try to tear the country apart. By attacking the capital in tactical gear; by threatenning the lives IN SITU, of politicians they disagree with. But most importantly, what is tearing the country apart: A lack of willingness to be held accountable for one's actions or for the actions one perpetrates. And this, seems too often, sadly, to be a feature of ardent Trump supporters (which makes sense since it is, essentially, a personality TRAIT of Trump)

If you support things that are anti constitution then you are more left than right.

Some GOOD examples? BEcause all I can think of is the PATRIOT Act off the top of my head

If you support a big controlling federal goverenment you are more left than right. If you support gigantic socialist programs then you are more left than right.

Yes.

If you are for opening the borders you are more left than right.

Agreed though the word "openning" is kinda RIFE for interpretation.....

If you are for strict gun control you are more left than right.

If you are for wokeness you are more left than right.

I just want to be clear: This is the definition of woke:
"alert to injustice in society, especially racism." (as per google).
Would you agree that being alert to injustice in society is NOT something that the right is interested in?

None of that makes you a bad person in the least. It's simply a political position.

Fair point. I agree.

One is not evil or wicked for wanting large socialist programs. Or being woke. If you want strict gun control you are not evil or deranged. It's just a political position.

I appreciate that. Thank you...and agree.

But if we are going to compare, far more people were injured or killed during the leftist violence over the last year in the riots than from right wing riots. That's not to downplay the right wing riot. It's just a factual representation.

More people were killed or injured during the leftist violence yes. But I've had a LOT of questions that remain unanswered that keeps me from agreeing with you completely.
1) How much of that was perpetrated by the left?
2) How much of that violence was perpetrated by the police? Yes, there were a lot of injuries: I would bet dollars to donuts the VAST majority of those injured were injured by police.
And given the thousands of cases being tossed out of court ( Why Charges Against Protesters Are Being Dismissed by the Thousands), the video taped evidence of unnecessary violence perpetrated BY cops, and given the fact that these protests were BORN OUT OF A DISPLEASURE OF COP VIOLENCE, I simply don't think that the violence that occurred was anywhere NEAR the "sole responsibility" of BLM or protestors.

I can understand WHY people draw that conclusion. I just do not htink it is a JUST or honest one.

3) How much of that violence was perpetrated by alt right?


If I had read and felt I could trust the sources that would answer these questions, I'd feel better about condemning the left wing violence over the sunner.

How can I say that more leftists are violent if I don't even have any idea who perpetrated hte violence?

Also, I wonder (just by way of example): If a cop pushes, say, a 72 year old protestor over and he is injured, is it the cop's fault or the septigenarian protestor who "shouldn't have been protesting"?

 

[rambot]

America has as much cultural differences. It's a HUGE country. You have the southern culture, the Texas culture, the Montana culture, the Louisiana culture, the culture of Boston which is different than LA. Even states have different governing powers and laws. We have different dialects, different specialty foods and even different ways we do pizza! We also share a similarity of culture as well. I can go from Main to Texas and read every road sign.

I acknowledged that America has varied culture but.....
"as much cultural differences".
uhhhh..... I'm not sure you know Europe as deeply as you think you do.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No we don't.
We don't straw man Trump....at least not as a behaviour "PATTERN".

Do you have several examples?

If you don't see it happening examples aren't going to help any.

 

[MIDutch]

So you want America to be Europe. Except we aren't Europe. And we may not have trains, but we can fly anywhere in the country we want to for lunch and dinner. So, it's not so bad. You could have breakfast in Seattle then fly to Miami for dinner.

Actually, for the distances involved, it would be more like having breakfast in Seattle then fly to Portland to have lunch and then on to, uhm, Medford Oregon for dinner.

You DO realize that they do have airplanes in Europe, yes? You Do realize that train tickets are way cheaper than airplane tickets, yes? You DO realize that for shorter trips like Amsterdam to Brugge (about 150 miles) a train would actually be faster than a plane, yes?

We don't want America to be European. You want Europe, go move there if it's so great.

I also think Boulder Colorado is a great place. Why don't right wingers ever say "go move there if it's so great".

I also think Ann Arbor Michigan is a great place. Why don't right wingers ever say "go move there if it's so great".

I also think Petoskey Michigan is great place. Why don't right wingers ever say "go move there if it's so great".

I also think Laguna Beach California is a great place. Why don't right wingers ever say "go move there if it's so great".

Why won't right wingers ever acknowledge that other countries may be doing some things better than the United States and learn from what others are already doing right.

And, yes, I have already lived in Europe. The Netherlands to be more specific.

And finally ... make me.

 

[MIDutch]

They should go where they belong. If you are left wing then you should join the left wing.

You really think Romney is left wing? Collins? Murkowski? Flake? Corker? Bush W?

Really?