Gun Laws vs Death rates.

[Hank77]

Gun control laws are pointless without gun registration. You can have all kinds of laws to prevent certain people from getting arms, but when people are able to sell them to whomever they wish without documentation, the effort is pointless.

Do you gun registration or do you mean when a gun is sold there is a background check which ties the old owner and the new owner to that particular gun?

 

[Hank77]

To a point, that's fine, but consider that even in the state of Maine, that lower rate still means that some 1,600 people are dead. They are dead because some person with free access to a firearm thought they should be. Although, I imagine that a few of these deaths in Maine might be accidental shootings by hunters, but not knowing all of the methodology of the numbers, I can't be sure.

and suicides which account for 2/3 of all gun deaths.

 

[JacksBratt]

Gun control laws are pointless without gun registration. You can have all kinds of laws to prevent certain people from getting arms, but when people are able to sell them to whomever they wish without documentation, the effort is pointless.

This is all with good intentions. However, as Canada found out, registration of guns only took place among law abiding citizens. People you don't have to worry about anyway.

You don't see a bunch of criminals saying "Hey Joe, your not coming with us on this raid if you haven't registered that gun.... don't want to get caught in a drive by shooting with an unregistered firearm".

Like I said... good intentions but that's where it ends... oh ya and huge cost.

 

[Hank77]

Seems reasonable, but what data there is suggests otherwise. A gun in the house increases suicide risk, period - they, in fact, often only kill themselves if they have a gun.

I can provide the citation on request.

Did you miss this post?

From a longer article but I thought this was important... [emphasis mine]

Lanny Berman, a psychologist who is executive director of the American Association of Suicidology, said that the issue of guns and suicide is complex – and confusing. Overall in the United States, the percentage of suicides committed with guns has fallen in recent years even as the overall number of suicides hasn't changed much.

"I'd like to think that it's come down because there's been a lot of public education and work in that area," Berman said. "That said, hanging deaths have increased, and we can't figure out how to engage restricted access to ropes and other forms of ligature. I can argue safe storage of a firearm, and convince some people that's wise, but belts, and guitar straps and anything else one might use to hang themselves with, I have no argument."
Gun deaths: Suicide rate quadruple homicide rate | Rocky Mountain PBS

 

[JacksBratt]

So, if those gun laws keep some 10 year old boy from being shot by his brother because his parents leave their weapons laying around, they are not useful unless the total number of deaths are dropped? Not much logic in your position.

Improper storage of a gun is a totally different topic.

A person who is fully licensed for Possession and Acquisition of firearms and ammunition, in Canada, will totally lose these rights if they are found to be negligent in the safe use, transport or storage of both.

 

[JacksBratt]

How many states with gun laws don't have registration?

Canada used to have registration as part of their gun laws and control. Now, even though we still have strict laws pertaining to acquisition and possession, we have no registration.

What is monitored, and much more easily, is the purchase of ammunition.

Tracking this is cheap and very informative.

Ammunition is subject to strict manufacture details. Combine this with ballistics and this can be priceless in crime solving.

 

[Yarddog]

A reduction of 1 is still reduction from the total.

So you agree that it would be useful.

 

[Yarddog]

Improper storage of a gun is a totally different topic.

No it isn't. Gun storage is part of the laws in many states and that is part of the OP.

A person who is fully licensed for Possession and Acquisition of firearms and ammunition, in Canada, will totally lose these rights if they are found to be negligent in the safe use, transport or storage of both.

Good. It aggravates me somewhat when a child shoots and kills himself or someone else because a weapon is left in a place where they can get it and people want to have sympathy for the parent who allowed it. That person should be prosecuted.

 

[Yarddog]

Canada used to have registration as part of their gun laws and control. Now, even though we still have strict laws pertaining to acquisition and possession, we have no registration.

What is monitored, and much more easily, is the purchase of ammunition.

Tracking this is cheap and very informative.

Ammunition is subject to strict manufacture details. Combine this with ballistics and this can be priceless in crime solving.

Thank you for this information. Very interesting.

 

[miamited]

and suicides which account for 2/3 of all gun deaths.

Hi hank,

Right, so even our suicide rate might be improved if it weren't quite so easy to end it all. However, people wanting to commit suicide isn't really the group I'm after. People get depressed and kill themselves. There's nothing anyone can do to stop that despite all of our best efforts with crisis hot lines and suicide hot lines and mental health helps. If someone truly desires to kill themselves, then there's not a lot that most of us can do about it because many, many suicides occur with people who even their best friends didn't see any signs of such deep hopelessness. As to whether or not that 124/100,000 in Maine does include suicide, I'd have to look at the metrics of the study. However, I'm unwilling to just say, "Well, people are still going to commit suicide even if we have strict gun laws," as some excuse to watch thousands of other people who didn't want to die, die.

My desire is to stop innocent people who don't want to die from dying. Personally, I think it also ludicrous to just sit on my hands and do nothing because I can come up with some excuse that people are still going to die without guns. Sure, you can look at the statistics of all the other nations and see that people still die in those nations despite stricter gun laws than we have. But they don't die at nearly the rate, even when considering all forms of homicide, as we like to kill em in the U.S. Let's make America great again by standing by and watching more people die. USA, USA, USA!!!!!

Like I've said, you and I aren't likely to come to any agreement on this issue. That's ok, but I still get to espouse my position and understanding of the issue. I've never owned a firearm and I can't imagine any scenario where I ever will. I know my nature. I know that there have been times in my life that I've been mad enough at someone that if I'd had a firearm, I might well have used it. I give praise to God that He has never allowed me to be in a situation where I've felt that I should have had a firearm.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[98cwitr]

So you agree that it would be useful.

High level, not really. Laws don't keep guns out of the hands of those who break the law. You want to end gun violence? Then you have to get rid of all the guns. There's no other way.

 

[miamited]

High level, not really. Laws don't keep guns out of the hands of those who break the law. You want to end gun violence? Then you have to get rid of all the guns. There's no other way.

Hi 98,

I agree! Despite our best efforts to regulate guns through laws without pretty much removing them from the hands of people, our death rate by firearm just continues to climb. It amazes me that people can't, or won't, see this.

But I also realize that we live in a fallen world and all we can really control is our own heart and motives. We live in a culture that has grown up with this teaching that our individual rights should always 'Trump' the good of all. We now have a leader who even lives by that mantra. We're doomed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Hank77]

Here's another site that, I believe, is worth a look: America’s unique gun violence problem, explained in 17 maps and charts

Too bad this site doesn't agree with another site that was posted in the OP.
Look at map #7. See where this site rates Texas, but Texas got an F on the OP site and so did Maine.
Texas has a law that is an attempt at a deterrent to leaving a loaded gun where a child has normal access to it. In any state a parent/adult can be convicted of a crime of negligence leading to death or injury. So Texas' law doesn't do anything different.
Here is the Texas law they are referring to.
Child Access Prevention in Texas

 

[98cwitr]

Hi 98,

I agree! Despite our best efforts to regulate guns through laws without pretty much removing them from the hands of people, our death rate by firearm just continues to climb. It amazes me that people can't, or won't, see this.

But I also realize that we live in a fallen world and all we can really control is our own heart and motives. We live in a culture that has grown up with this teaching that our individual rights should always 'Trump' the good of all. We now have a leader who even lives by that mantra. We're doomed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Ted,

I think they see it. Some of my family a very pro-gun control, and we have the conversations. It's not that they don't see it, but they see the "get rid of all guns" stance as a futile effort. They simply don't believe in the current American climate that it's even feasible to suggest such a thing...and they're right. So they take the middle road; a more feasible and diplomatic stance, and suggest more controls.

 

[Yarddog]

High level, not really. Laws don't keep guns out of the hands of those who break the law. You want to end gun violence?

That has nothing to do with the point of the discussion which you responded to. Keeping a child from from shooting themselves or another because a gun was left where they could get their hands on it is useful.

Then you have to get rid of all the guns. There's no other way.

That equates to, "we can't keep drunk drivers off the road so it's no use to pass laws allowing police to arrest them.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi 98,

I agree! Despite our best efforts to regulate guns through laws without pretty much removing them from the hands of people, our death rate by firearm just continues to climb. It amazes me that people can't, or won't, see this.

But I also realize that we live in a fallen world and all we can really control is our own heart and motives. We live in a culture that has grown up with this teaching that our individual rights should always 'Trump' the good of all. We now have a leader who even lives by that mantra. We're doomed.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

If you removed all the guns from people... if this was even remotely possible.... how would you maintain the environmental impact of this on wildlife?

Whether you are aware of this, or believe it, or agree with it, humans are a huge factor in the maintenance of certain biological balances in animal populations.

In Canada there was a spring bear hunt. About 1000 animals were harvested each spring. The majority of these animals were taken by Americans who came here for this purpose.

A powerful lobby group used it's political power and false information to pressure the Ontario government to cancel this hunt.

What happened in the years that followed was a continual rise in the number of Black Bears in Ontario. As this population increased, it rose to a point where the population density was too large for the environment. Bears started to infringe on the areas of Ontario where people live, work and play, while they were in search of food and living area.

This began to be a problem. Bears were no longer afraid of people and quickly learned where they could get a meal. This soon became destructive, dangerous and life threatening.

We have to realize that even though this used to be the home of the bears, and yes, we have taken it from them, it is no longer plausible for Bears and people to cohabitate at this density.

It could not be left up to natural events for the reduction and balance of the bear population. The bear hunt needed to be reinstated.

Too many bears were destroyed in order to keep the population of humans safe.

This concept is something that would effect the environmental impacts of the removal of all guns.

What you end up with is overpopulation of may animals which leads to starvation and hazardous conditions for the animals and humans.

 

[JacksBratt]

Ted,

I think they see it. Some of my family a very pro-gun control, and we have the conversations. It's not that they don't see it, but they see the "get rid of all guns" stance as a futile effort. They simply don't believe in the current American climate that it's even feasible to suggest such a thing...and they're right. So they take the middle road; a more feasible and diplomatic stance, and suggest more controls.

The controls that are put into play have to be ones that actually affect the people who refuse to obey laws.
That is the rub.

When guns are outlawed.....only outlaws will have guns.

 

[98cwitr]

That has nothing to do with the point of the discussion which you responded to. Keeping a child from from shooting themselves or another because a gun was left where they could get their hands on it is useful.

In that context you would have to legally mandate the storage of firearms on private property, which is unconstitutional. BUT! I think that in any case that a child commits involuntary manslaughter with any weapon the parent(s) should be help liable.

Another consideration to point out is that a lot of guns are obtained via home robberies where guns are not secured in heavy safes.

That equates to, "we can't keep drunk drivers off the road so it's no use to pass laws allowing police to arrest them.

No, it equates to "we keep drunk drivers off the road by making alcohol illegal." To get rid of all the guns, you have to get rid of the gun manufacturers. I'm sure you're familiar enough with American history to recall how horrible the prohibition initiative went.

Here's my conservative libertarian answer to all of this:

Gun control is not the answer, harsher penalties for gun violence is. Stop letting violent felons out of "good behavior" in 5 years when they are sentenced to 20.

As Jesus said: Let your "Yes be your yes." If a judge sentences you to 20 years...you get literally 20 years.

 

[98cwitr]

The controls that are put into play have to be ones that actually affect the people who refuse to obey laws.
That is the rub.

When guns are outlawed.....only outlaws will have guns.

I have yet to see a single gun law that keeps the guns out of the hands of "outlaws" (as you call them). If I am a felon, I go buy a gun on the street, not in a gun store. I still obtain one...and that's the rub. If I'm not a felon, but a violent person [who values my own life therefore not going to commit suicide] who is going to commit a felony I still buy a gun off the street.

 

[expos4ever]

Did you miss this post?

That post does not challenge my assertion.

My claim was something very specific: a gun in the home increases suicide risk. What information from your post challenges this finding?