Good News, Really?

[Arcoe]

Why is some people's unwillingness the fault of Calvinism? Calvinism is simply pointing out what is evident: men are unwilling, except God replace our stony hearts with hearts of flesh.

That seems like God-honoring theology to me.

I keep hearing about regeneration from the Calvinists, but I have yet had one to answer a question I put forth.

How and when were you regenerated? I have said, according to Calvinists, it has to be an instant, miraculous, and unknown event in their lives, yet no one has proven otherwise. I also believe Calvinists say it is a one-time event.

So, if any Calvinist would like to answer, please do.

HOW and WHEN were you regenerated?

 

[Skala]

I keep hearing about regeneration from the Calvinists, but I have yet had one to answer a question I put forth.

How and when were you regenerated? I have said, according to Calvinists, it has to be an instant, miraculous, and unknown happening in their lives, yet no one has proven otherwise.

So, if any Calvinist would like to answer, please do.

HOW and WHEN were you regenerated?

Regeneration and faith happen simultaneously, temporally. (temporally means "relating to time")

When we say that faith or regeneration precedes the other, we don't mean temporally, we mean logically. We mean one is the cart, the other is the horse.

But in temporal time, that is, the way we experience it, faith and regenreation happen at the same time.

So to your question: "When were you regenerated?" Our answer is "When we believed" It's no different than your own answer to the same question.

But when you ask "How were you regenerated", our answer is "By God's grace".
This differs from your answer which is "By an act of the will"

The former is biblical, the other is not

Regeneration is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit alone. Without it, you cannot see, let alone enter, the kingdom of God. Some people say that you become born again (ie, regenerate) by choosing to enter the kingdom, upon seeing it. Such a thing turns John 3 around backward.

God has "caused us to be born again" unto a living hope. (1 Pet 1:3) Notice, it doesn't say that because of our hope, we are born again. But rather, we are born again unto this hope.

The bible teaches that we believe because of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph 1:19).

It teaches that God fulfills the work of faith in us by His power (2 Thess 1:11)

And it teaches that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Everything? Including faith maybe? Is faith needed for life and godliness?

 

[AndOne]

I keep hearing about regeneration from the Calvinists, but I have yet had one to answer a question I put forth.

How and when were you regenerated? I have said, according to Calvinists, it has to be an instant, miraculous, and unknown event in their lives, yet no one has proven otherwise. I also believe Calvinists say it is a one-time event.

So, if any Calvinist would like to answer, please do.

HOW and WHEN were you regenerated?

I honestly can't answer the "WHEN" part of the question - but the "HOW' part was throught the power of the Holy Spirit - See Titus 3:5-6.

 

[Eddie L]

So, if any Calvinist would like to answer, please do.

HOW and WHEN were you regenerated?

We can't define the exact mechanics nor the time, because such is not given to us. All I know is that there was a time that the word "Jesus" made me roll my eyes, that I thought all religion was a crutch for uneducated people, and that any God that would send people to Hell was not worth my time. Then one day my thinking changed. The message was the same. The gospel didn't change, but something in me did.

God bringing us to faith is a process that requires time and space, yet He controls every part of that process and all the means He decides to use. We can't use materialistic terms to define a spiritual process, however. We can't even comprehend how it all works, because we lack any frame of reference for such a thing. All I can say, though, is that the same person (me) hated Jesus and His message, then the same person (me) loved Jesus and His message. Something inside me became different, and I know myself well enough to know that whatever that change was didn't come from me. I could never have wrought something so wonderful.

When I read the Bible for the first time it completely explained the transformation I had experienced. Most of my reading of the book of John, Ephesians, Romans, Philippians, and the epistles of Peter and John made me go "Oh, I see", because my own experience could only be explained that way. As I realized that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit had all been engaged in my salvation (specifically), I fell on my face in gratitude many times. I owed a debt of gratitude to God for not just the visible things, but the invisible things that physical eyes and ears cannot perceive. THEN I found out there was something called "Calvinism" that put a label to the things I had seen in the Bible.

What you guys keep wanting us to do is to take back some credit that we've been giving to God. Our change in understanding, our surrender, our realization about the sinfulness of ourselves... you want all that to be something we did on our own. I'm sorry, but the Bible and the experience of my life too strongly indicates that this can't be. I am a worthless man who God decided to redeem and change. The love I have in my heart isn't something that came from me. It is the Spirit of Jesus living in me.

 

[janxharris]

The gospel is not good news for anyone who will never believe it. A person who dies a dedicated Muslim or an Atheist will never consider the gospel to be good news. It did not help their situation. In fact, in the end, it will be very bad news for them.

Someone choosing not to believe in no way nullifies the good news of Christ's resurrection. Whether your a believer or not, the Holy spirit is at work.
John 16:7,8
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

For those of us who live in the "world of the means", though, the gospel is good news because it provides hope for the whole world. Because of the gospel, anyone who believes from any nation and tribe has the sure hope of redemption in Christ. This would be excellent news for any gentile who thought their only basis to a right standing with God was through adherence to a Jewish law that they did not understand and could not obey. The good news is that the world is reconciled to God via the work of Jesus.

Now, does that mean it is good news to every individual ever born? Of course not. The gospel is not good news to those who will end up in Hell, whether you're a Calvinist, an Arminian, or anything else.

It's good news (as scripture says) whilst we're alive if you are a Non-Reformer. It's bad news (which goes against scripture) whilst you are alive if Reformed Theology is true and you are not of the elect.

 

[nobdysfool]

I keep hearing about regeneration from the Calvinists, but I have yet had one to answer a question I put forth.

How and when were you regenerated? I have said, according to Calvinists, it has to be an instant, miraculous, and unknown event in their lives, yet no one has proven otherwise. I also believe Calvinists say it is a one-time event.

So, if any Calvinist would like to answer, please do.

HOW and WHEN were you regenerated?

And if we tell you, you will find a way to dismiss it. It's happened before, and will most likely happen again. You really aren't interested in truly learning correctly what Reformed Theology teaches, are you? You're just hoping we'll give you even more ammunition with which to shoot at us. As long as you hold it in your mind that Reformed Theology cannot possibly be right, there is no point in trying to enlighten you. You're already convinced that it isn't right.

What I will say is this: I was regenerated by God, at the time of His choosing, and my response was to receive Christ. What's even more amazing is that not a word was spoken by anyone to me, or me to anyone. Instead, I was afforded the blessing of seeing the Crucifixion, not a re-enactment, or an icon, but a vision of the actual Crucifixion. What I can say is, that none of us has a clue to how bloody, how horrible and how graphic it actually was. God didn't have to do anything else for me to realize that Jesus was hanging there in my place, suffering the punishment I was rightfully due for my sins. At that point, I responded in the only way possible. i asked for forgiveness, and asked to be made whole. And God answered my prayer.

so, when you or anyone else tries to tell me that faith comes before regeneration, I can speak from personal experience, and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. In short, anyone saying that faith comes before regeneration is lying.

 

[janxharris]

That's like saying broccoli is not good news to people who refuse to eat vegetables.

The non elect don't care about Christ. Its their own fault that the gospel is not good news for them. They hate him. In fact, we are all hostile to God except for God changing our hearts by grace.

That is the boast of the Calvinist.

What is the Arminian's boast? That you somehow, by an act of the will, decided to be converted? Good job Holy Spirit! You are doing a fantastic job. Oh wait, you aren't the Holy Spirit are you? You are a human. Therefore, you cannot do conversion.

The good news of the gospel is that anyone who wants to repent and believe can do so and be saved. It's their own fault for not wanting to repent and believe. If they wanted to, they could. Nothing is stopping them except their own unwillingness.

Why is some people's unwillingness the fault of Calvinism? Calvinism is simply pointing out what is evident: men are unwilling, except God replace our stony hearts with hearts of flesh.

That seems like God-honoring theology to me.

Skala, it saddens me to read this. You have not answered the question.

The good news of the gospel is that anyone who wants to repent and believe can do so and be saved.

No, Skala, Reformed Theology does not allow that anyone can repent or else Total Depravity isn't total is it? Are you saying you disagree with those Reformers who say man is unwilling AND unable?

In what way is the Gospel good news for the unelect?

 

[Eddie L]

Someone choosing not to believe in no way nullifies the good news of Christ's resurrection. Whether your a believer or not, the Holy spirit is at work.
John 16:7,8
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:


It's good news (as scripture says) whilst we're alive if you are a Non-Reformer. It's bad news (which goes against scripture) whilst you are alive if Reformed Theology is true and you are not of the elect.

The gospel is good news to the world, because without it the world would perish. Individually, it is good news to those that believe that it is, which is true no matter what your understanding of election is.

 

[Skala]

Skala, it saddens me to read this. You have not answered the question.

No, Skala, Reformed Theology does not allow that anyone can repent or else Total Depravity isn't total is it? Are you saying you disagree with those Reformers who say man is unwilling AND unable?

In what way is the Gospel good news for the unelect?

Anyone who wants to repent and believe can do so.

That's what reformed theology teaches.

What do you have a problem with?

In reformed and non-reformed theology, the same is true of BOTH of them:

1) anyone who wants to repent and be saved can do so
2) the ones that do are the ones that are saved

You act like we believe differently on these points, when in fact, we do not. You're looking for areas of disagreement where there is none.

 

[AndOne]

It's good news (as scripture says) whilst we're alive if you are a Non-Reformer.

What is the difference if you are alive or dead? Think about this for a minute if you don't mind. If you can make a decision to follow Christ in and of your own freewill while you are alive - then why can't you reject Christ in eternity? Or do you think this is a possibility? If so - what is the scriptural basis for it?

It's bad news (which goes against scripture) whilst you are alive if Reformed Theology is true and you are not of the elect.

Scripture is clear on this - no one comes to the Father except through Christ (Jn 14:6). Those who do not come are not of the elect (1 Jn 2:19-20). That's bad news any way you slice it - but it is scriptural.

 

[Skala]

Scripture is clear on this - no one comes to the Father except through Christ (Jn 14:6). Those who do not come are not of the elect (1 Jn 2:19-20). That's bad news any way you slice it - but it is scriptural.

Seriously. It's like they think people willingly rejecting the gospel only happens in a world where reformed theology is true.

 

[janxharris]

Anyone who wants to repent and believe can do so.

That's what reformed theology teaches.

What do you have a problem with?

In reformed and non-reformed theology, the same is true of BOTH of them:

1) anyone who wants to repent and be saved can do so
2) the ones that do are the ones that are saved

You act like we believe differently on these points, when in fact, we do not. You're looking for areas of disagreement where there is none.

You are presenting a partial, incomplete argument, so as to try to answer the OP. Please tell me if someone, in their total depravity, can repent and turn to Christ and believe?

1. If they can, then the depravity is not total
2. If they can't, then the good news becomes bad news if they are among the non-elect

How would you answer this?

 

[Skala]

You are presenting a partial, incomplete argument, so as to try to answer the OP. Please tell me if someone, in their total depravity, can repent and turn to Christ and believe?

They can if they want to.

1. If they can, then the depravity is not total

So are you denying any sort of prevenient grace on God's part? You are saying that man, in and of himself, with no help from God whatsoever, has the ability to turn from sin and towards Christ?

Is what what you are saying?

If not, then you, too, believe that Depravity is Total.

 

[janxharris]

They can if they want to.



So are you denying any sort of prevenient grace on God's part? You are saying that man, in and of himself, with no help from God whatsoever, has the ability to turn from sin and towards Christ?

Is what what you are saying?

If not, then you, too, believe that Depravity is Total.

With respect Skala, you have not answered my question. John 16:8 teaches that the Holy Spirit is at work on all men. I do not believe in total depravity.

Please would you address the question?

 

[Skala]

With respect Skala, you have not answered my question. John 16:8 teaches that the Holy Spirit is at work on all men. I do not believe in total depravity.

Please would you address the question?

Why does the Holy Spirit need to work in men if they are not depraved?

 

[Johnnz]

Why does the Holy Spirit need to work in men if they are not depraved?

The entire cosmos is actively maintained by the Godhead.
Col 1:15-18 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. NIV

Moreover Jesus was about a very comprehensive reconciliation.
Col 1:18-20 dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV

John
NZ

 

[janxharris]

Why does the Holy Spirit need to work in men if they are not depraved?

All men are depraved. I said I did not believe in the total depravity of Reformed Theology which is very different.

 

[AndOne]

All men are depraved. I said I did not believe in the total depravity of Reformed Theology which is very different.

This makes no sense. How is it different?

 

[Johnnz]

All men are depraved. I said I did not believe in the total depravity of Reformed Theology which is very different.

Depraved is a redundant word in my thinking. Fallen is the term I use referring to our tendencies to act less well than we should, and our mortality, one day we all die.

John
NZ

 

[Skala]

All men are depraved. I said I did not believe in the total depravity of Reformed Theology which is very different.

Janx, if the Holy Spirit did not work in men, would any come to God?