“We are all fundamentally good ... the heart itself is good,” says Pope Francis

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Again, it is very Calvinistic to emphasize human fault. Why do people prefer to amplify a few scripture verses that identify human fault while completely ignoring those that speak of human goodness?

The wages of death is sin.
God is Holy, therefore none of us can approach Him, lest we will die.
Sin disconnects us from God, who is life.
God is just, therefore every sin must be punished. Because we are sinners, we are in debt to God, but it is a debt none of us can repay.

You see why sin is so serious? It is our sin that separates us from God. Someone must remove it, like a surgery.

Btw, there is no pleasing God without faith. If you doing good, but have no faith and don't love God, you are not righteous.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9)

All Scripture is the word of God, all equally true.

What NT Scriptures do you have in mind regarding human goodness of itself?

Human goodness "of itself"? Human "fundamental goodness" is entirely in relation to God. No one has claimed otherwise. The Pope never said humans do not need God, redemption or have any goodness of themselves without God. Don't put words in his mouth that he did not say.

Jesus said: “Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist” (Matthew 11:11).

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. (Matthew 1:19)

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. (acts 10:22)

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5-6)

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2:25)

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:17)

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:10)

just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? (Galatians 3:6)

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The wages of death is sin.
God is Holy, therefore none of us can approach Him, lest we will die.
Sin disconnects us from God, who is life.
God is just, therefore every sin must be punished. Because we are sinners, we are in debt to God, but it is a debt none of us can repay.

You see why sin is so serious? It is our sin that separates us from God. Someone must remove it, like a surgery.

Btw, there is no pleasing God without faith. If you doing good, but have no faith and don't love God, you are not righteous.

No one has said otherwise. Not even the Pope.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Not even the Pope.

I'm not going to write what I think about the pope, I'll get banned.

 

[jas3]

I'm no defender of Francis, but having watched the video from the linked timestamp to the end, I think it's clear that he was speaking in a vague general sense to a secular audience, so his comment doesn't deserve the detailed analysis and point-by-point criticism it's been getting. There are plenty of worse things he's said and taught which call his orthodoxy into question.

 

[d taylor]

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Well as to the statement that people are fundamentally good. If that was the case there would be no need for a law and the enforcement of laws.

If people were fundamentally good, they would not litter, run stop signs, lie, cheat, etc....

 

[Jamdoc]

You were there? Lots of religions became the official state religion for various government. Judging people back in the 4th century? Try not to judge others or persecute other Christians. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's ...
Making a religion an official state religion always corrupts the religion, worldly influence always pervades it as compromise for the state to stay in power. With Romanism the Empire renamed statues of Roman figures and their pantheon into Christian saints (or Mary in the case of goddess statues). The Roman church took pagan festivals and applied Christianized names to them. However it's the pagan practices that got spread worldwide as a result. It's the Yule traditions that are spread around the world, it's the Pagan festival of Ishtar that involves bunnies and chickens and other fertility symbols rather than the Resurrection of Jesus, and it's dressing up as evil spirits and going door to door for offerings and pumpkins that are what the world sees of the Festivals the Roman Church tried to Christianize.

Because in their wisdom they thought converting the heathen by taking their culture into the Church and trying to adapt it would be profitable.

Well we never learn, all denominations are being corrupted by worldly influence as we speak now, hence LGBT drag shows in churches now.
Don't get me wrong this is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church
Any Church that tries to spread by incorporating worldly culture into it to make it more palatable ends up corrupting the Church.

 

[Jamdoc]

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Well as to the statement that people are fundamentally good. If that was the case there would be no need for a law and the enforcement of laws.

If people were fundamentally good, they would not litter, run stop signs, lie, cheat, etc....

well, running stop signs can happen on accident, they just don't notice it or are distracted while driving, and there's no traffic, etc.
traffic laws aren't God's laws, we put them up to try and increase safe driving, people speed, get parking tickets because their car was parked longer than they thought at a meter, things like that without any ill intent at breaking laws.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I'm no defender of Francis, but having watched the video from the linked timestamp to the end, I think it's clear that he was speaking in a vague general sense to a secular audience, so his comment doesn't deserve the detailed analysis and point-by-point criticism it's been getting. There are plenty of worse things he's said and taught which call his orthodoxy into question.

Right. He is talking about what gives him hope and he is able to recognize what he sees as the good in people. That does not mean they don't need Christ a or that they are sinless or anything else. "Fundamental goodness" speaks to creation and God's image and likeness that pre-existed the fall". In spite of wrong choices and sinful inclination goodness and heroism still shine through.

 

[Clare73]

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9)

None of which excludes the work of the Holy Spirit in the individual.
His righteousness is of the Holy Spirit, not of himself.

Human goodness "of itself"? Human "fundamental goodness" is entirely in relation to God.

"Fundamental" is in relation to humans.

Goodness was fundamental to Adam until he destroyed it.
Now sin is fundamental to man, changed only by the new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Valletta]

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's ...
Making a religion an official state religion always corrupts the religion, worldly influence always pervades it as compromise for the state to stay in power. With Romanism the Empire renamed statues of Roman figures and their pantheon into Christian saints (or Mary in the case of goddess statues). The Roman church took pagan festivals and applied Christianized names to them. However it's the pagan practices that got spread worldwide as a result. It's the Yule traditions that are spread around the world, it's the Pagan festival of Ishtar that involves bunnies and chickens and other fertility symbols rather than the Resurrection of Jesus, and it's dressing up as evil spirits and going door to door for offerings and pumpkins that are what the world sees of the Festivals the Roman Church tried to Christianize.

Because in their wisdom they thought converting the heathen by taking their culture into the Church and trying to adapt it would be profitable.

Well we never learn, all denominations are being corrupted by worldly influence as we speak now, hence LGBT drag shows in churches now.
Don't get me wrong this is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church
Any Church that tries to spread by incorporating worldly culture into it to make it more palatable ends up corrupting the Church.

The cross was a pagan symbol. Jesus used the cross but it neither corrupted Jesus nor the rest of His Church, in Heaven or on Earth. Your history of the Catholic Church is baloney. The Catholic Church resisted the pagans and refused to participate in their ceremonies and were persecuted for it.
Not until the time of Constantine were Catholics allowed to freely and publicly worship. Various feast days were established to honor Our Lord, feast days like Easter. Actually the East and West chose different days. Do you have any documentation whatsoever from the late 300s or 400s to support your claims about Ishtar and the rest? What the Catholic Church did in that century was choose the 73 books of the Bible. The Catholic Church then spread the Gospel throughout the world, laboriously translating and preserving the Word of God over all of the centuries. Don't judge those early Catholics from tall tales.

 

[Jamdoc]

The cross was a pagan symbol. Jesus used the cross but it neither corrupted Jesus nor the rest of His Church, in Heaven or on Earth. Your history of the Catholic Church is baloney. The Catholic Church resisted the pagans and refused to participate in their ceremonies and were persecuted for it.
Not until the time of Constantine were Catholics allowed to freely and publicly worship. Various feast days were established to honor Our Lord, feast days like Easter. Actually the East and West chose different days. Do you have any documentation whatsoever from the late 300s or 400s to support your claims about Ishtar and the rest? What the Catholic Church did in that century was choose the 73 books of the Bible. The Catholic Church then spread the Gospel throughout the world, laboriously translating and preserving the Word of God over all of the centuries. Don't judge those early Catholics from tall tales.

Got an explanation for why Easter is associated with bunnies and eggs?
cause I don't see that in scripture.
But that's what the world thinks when they celebrate "Easter".
and as far as I know, they are pagan fertility symbols.
Ishtar is the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility.

Now Halloween, that connection is more clear, it's also more recent, it comes from a Celtic festival called Samhain, which was November 1st, the Catholic Church declared November 1st All Saint's Day, and Oct 31st was All Hallows Eve.
Which set of traditions persist... the Gaelic Samhain festivities.. or All Hallows Eve?

Where do pine trees, wreaths, giving gifts, and elves come from in the bible?
and where is it said in the bible that Jesus was born on December 25th? The bible doesn't say anything about it and scholars don't exactly know but given astronomical signs and agricultural cycles don't believe it's December.. but in 350 AD, Pope Julius declared it December 25th (funny, 4th century), which was the date of pagan winter solstice festivals.

 

[Valletta]

Got an explanation for why Easter is associated with bunnies and eggs?
cause I don't see that in scripture.
But that's what the world thinks when they celebrate "Easter".
and as far as I know, they are pagan fertility symbols.
Ishtar is the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility.

Now Halloween, that connection is more clear, it's also more recent, it comes from a Celtic festival called Samhain, which was November 1st, the Catholic Church declared November 1st All Saint's Day, and Oct 31st was All Hallows Eve.
Which set of traditions persist... the Gaelic Samhain festivities.. or All Hallows Eve?

Where do pine trees, wreaths, giving gifts, and elves come from in the bible?
and where is it said in the bible that Jesus was born on December 25th? The bible doesn't say anything about it and scholars don't exactly know but given astronomical signs and agricultural cycles don't believe it's December.. but in 350 AD, Pope Julius declared it December 25th (funny, 4th century), which was the date of pagan winter solstice festivals.

Please don't include Catholics in what the world thinks of Easter. We have a 40 day Lent before Easter where there is much fasting, repenting, and alms giving. At Easter there is great joy as we celebrate the Resurrection. Why not do some research for yourself rather than just grabbing information off of anti-Catholic websites? Do you seek the truth? Take a look at the historical documents from the 300s and 400s and see if anyone mentioned this Ishtar you seem so enamored with. See what was discussed and why particular dates were chosen, although the date is of little importance compared with giving thanks to God. Hallows Eve refers to the eve of All Saints Day. At our church people dress up as various saints and tell about the lives of those saints. It is not the fault of Catholics if you or those you know celebrate Halloween. Satanists have a "black mass" where they blasphemy and desecrate Jesus. The blame also should not be on Jesus and the Holy Mass and His Church.

 

[Jamdoc]

Please don't include Catholics in what the world thinks of Easter. We have a 40 day Lent before Easter where there is much fasting, repenting, and alms giving. At Easter there is great joy as we celebrate the Resurrection. Why not do some research for yourself rather than just grabbing information off of anti-Catholic websites? Do you seek the truth? Take a look at the historical documents from the 300s and 400s and see if anyone mentioned this Ishtar you seem so enamored with. See what was discussed and why particular dates were chosen, although the date is of little importance compared with giving thanks to God. Hallows Eve refers to the eve of All Saints Day. At our church people dress up as various saints and tell about the lives of those saints. It is not the fault of Catholics if you or those you know celebrate Halloween. Satanists have a "black mass" where they blasphemy and desecrate Jesus. The blame also should not be on Jesus and the Holy Mass and His Church.

Oh, okay, well, I'm sure that means the Pope was totally justified in claiming all humans are inherently good, and that the heart is good
instead of what the bible says.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Oh, okay, well, I'm sure that means the Pope was totally justified in claiming all humans are inherently good, and that the heart is good
instead of what the bible says.

You mean your cherry picked Bible verses. See post #22

 

[Jamdoc]

You mean your cherry picked Bible verses. See post #22

the ground floor of the gospel is that God is good, and we are not. We are sinners.

Until one can grasp that first basic fact, that they are not good, that they are a sinner, they cannot be saved. The first foundation of getting saved is learning you need a savior in the first place.

as for the list of righteous, it's not righteous by their own actions, it is righteousness by their faith. Just as with Abram, faith is counted for righteousness. Job was described as a righteous man, but

Job 19

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Why would Job need a redeemer if he was righteous by his own actions and was not a sinner?
and why was Job looking for a redeemer that would come in the future and resurrect him?
Job did not have self righteousness, Job had the righteousness of God.

Noah was also not self righteous, the bible clearly points out that Noah sinned after the flood, getting drunk. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah, Lot, Abraham, Job, all sinners, but forgiven sinners. Their righteousness was not earned, it was given.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Noah, Lot, Abraham, Job, all sinners, but forgiven sinners. Their righteousness was not earned, it was given.

Same with us The Pope never said people are sinless or without need of a redeemer.
""Fundamentally Good" does not mean perfect, self righteous nor sinless. It means created by God with great potential.
Reread the beatitudes.

He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

[Jamdoc]

Same with us The Pope never said people are sinless or without need of a redeemer.
""Fundamentally Good" does not mean perfect, self righteous nor sinless. It means created by God with great potential.
Reread the beatitudes.

He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Okay but it is extremely misleading to people when you tell them they are good people, because a lot of people assume you get to heaven by "being a good person". They're impossible to save in that position. They don't know they need a savior.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Okay but it is extremely misleading to people when you tell them they are good people, because a lot of people assume you get to heaven by "being a good person". They're impossible to save in that position. They don't know they need a savior.

In the context of the interview he is talking about what gives him hope.
Why play "gotcha" with such a hopeful statement?
He can see the good and "heroism" in people. It is too bad so many people can only see the evil.

 

[ralliann]

So we want to quote scripture? Then are these contradictory?

Romans 3:10

“There is none righteous, not even one;




Proverbs 24:16

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again,
But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.

Romans says none are righteous. Proverbs says there is at least one.
Do we not see how futile and small it is to use scripter as a weapon?

Maybe it is not really a contradiction at all.

1. Righteousness before your fellow man, "it shall be our righteousness"

Deut. 6:21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh’s bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand:
22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: {sore: Heb. evil }
23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.
24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

2. Righteousness before God, "not thy righteousness, or uprightness of thine heart"

Deut 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

3. God's righteousness, God's faithfulness in his oath to their fathers...... (which is the Gospel to all men)

5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Human righteousness, is not righteousness before God. Rather it is righteousness before your fellow man....
Like Yom kippur is a sacrifice for the whole nation of Israel (collective) for sins committed in ignorance specifically against God......

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Gen 22:15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.