God's Wrath...To believe the OT or not.

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The important thing to understand is that the Old Testament was always temporary until Christ. After Christ is the New Covenant. The Old Testament is the Old Covenant.

The prophets and Old Testament was always waiting for the Savior, Jesus Christ. He changed everything. The Old Testament and Old Covenant were always meant to be replaced.

The important thing to understand is that there is complete continuity throughout the Bible and that all of God's covenants are cumulative. None of God's the previous covenants did away with what was before them. The Old Testament contains multiple covenants and things that are not covenants, so it is itself not the Mosaic Covenant. God does nothing that he has not first revealed to the prophets (Amos 3:7) and the prophets said nothing about God's law being replaced, but rather God's law is eternal.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There is just as much love and judgement in the OT and the NT, so God's character does not change. Marcion was an early believer who thought that the God of the OT was a different God and he was rejected as heretic, though some of what he taught is still alive and kicking.

Did you say there is just as much judgement in the OT as the NT?

The covenant changed. Forgiveness forever is now possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sorry. This is very inaccurate.

Our salvation is in the New Covenant, through Jesus Christ and His shed blood.
The New Covenant is the covenant that God makes with each of us. And as a seal of this covenant, we are given the Holy Spirit as both a seal of this covenant and as part of our inheritance as heirs of Jesus Christ.

You do not understand covenants or what a covenant with God is.
Correctomundo!
Now if only we can explain that to the non-Christian Jews of today...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-new-or-renewed-covenant-with-israel.7525782/
Did Christ come to establish a New or Renewed Covenant with Israel?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-covenant-of-jeremiah-31-hebrew-8.7326950/

Jeremiah 31:
31
"Behold! days are coming", a declaration of YAHWEH
"and I-Cut/Make/03772 karath with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah a New Covenant
32 Not like a Covenant which I Cut/Made/03772 karath with fathers of them in day of to take-hold of Me in-hand-of them to-bring-forth of them from land of Egypt,
which they-broke that Covenant of Me and I, I possessed in them", declaration-of YAHWEH.
33 "That this the-Covenant which I shall cut/make/03772 karath with house-of Yisra'el after the those days, declarations-of YAHWEH.
I give Law of Me within them and on heart of them I shall write herit
and I become to them for Elohiym and they they shall become to Me for people."


Hebrews 8:
8 "For faulting to-them He is saying 'behold! days are coming is saying Lord
and I shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah a New Covenant
9 Not according-as the Covenant which I made to the fathers of them in day of placing of Me the hand of them, to be out leading them out of land of Egypt,
that they not in-remain in the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> of Me, and I, I un-care of them, is saying Lord.
10 That this the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> which I shall be Covenanting/diaqhsomai <1303> (5695) to the House of Israel after those day, is saying LORD.
Giving laws of Me into the minds of them and upon hearts of them I shall be engraving them.
And I shall to them into God and they shall be to Me into a People

.
 
Upvote 0
Nov 15, 2011
1,496
5
✟17,405.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Along with my thread on hell this topic came up. Do Christians believe in the OT anymore? If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever than He also has wrath or is there a different God in the NT?

Of course I think that God has wrath tempered by His Love

The "wrath" of God has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. It would be wise to keep the following in mind when studying this subject. "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible [especially the Old Testament Scriptures] concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." Great Controversy, 492.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Nov 15, 2011
1,496
5
✟17,405.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
The wrath of God has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. It would be wise to keep the following in mind when studying this subject. "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." Great Controversy, 492.

A good statement to start with in this connection is the following one:

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner and there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." Great Controversy, 36.
 
Upvote 0
Nov 15, 2011
1,496
5
✟17,405.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
A good statement to start with in this connection is the following one: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner and there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." Great Controversy, 36.

THE NATURE OF GOD'S GOVERNMENT & THE PRINCIPLES OF HIS DEALING WITH SIN

1. "The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of His government... Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love, and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, 22,759.

2. Therefore, "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." Selected Messages, vol.1, 235.

This is made perfectly clear in the following statements:

"I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a limit to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, vol.14, 3.1.

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" E.G. White, Review & Herald, vol.4, 335; Patriarchs & Prophets, 98; Testimonies, vol.8, 50.
 
Upvote 0

ChristsSoldier115

Mabaho na Kuya
Jul 30, 2013
6,765
1,601
The greatest state in the Union: Ohio
✟26,502.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Along with my thread on hell this topic came up. Do Christians believe in the OT anymore? If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever than He also has wrath or is there a different God in the NT?

Of course I think that God has wrath tempered by His Love
God is love, but God is also more than love, and God is also all these things on the level of infinite, how does a being with such a finite measure of love can ever hope to compare what they view as justice, fairness, or love to a Being that knows and is both the concepts and distributor of them on a level far above its own?

People who thnk God is unfair or not loving, just don't get the fact that they are still sinners, and even with the Holy Spirit have a somewhat cloudy view of what love, or justice or anything that is attributed to God that they accuse He is contradicting.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The important thing to understand is that there is complete continuity throughout the Bible and that all of God's covenants are cumulative. None of God's the previous covenants did away with what was before them. The Old Testament contains multiple covenants and things that are not covenants, so it is itself not the Mosaic Covenant. God does nothing that he has not first revealed to the prophets (Amos 3:7) and the prophets said nothing about God's law being replaced, but rather God's law is eternal.
Covenants are not cumulative. This is where you get it wrong. Now note: This is written to Hebrews, who knew the OT very well,.

Hebrews 8:6-13
Now, however, Jesus has received a far superior ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is superior and is founded on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8 But when God found fault with the people, He said:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel

after those days
, says the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds,

and inscribe them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.

11 No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their iniquities,

and remember their sins no more.”​

13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Here is a question. If someone is "never changing" are they able to experience "emotion" since emotion means "to be moved internally"?

What a question - out of the blue - unexpected. THank God for honest inquiry. :)

What difference does it make if "someone" is "never changing" whether they are able to experience "emotion" or not ?
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The Old and New testaments are inspired by the Holy Spirit. There is but ONE God creator. God is the same!
Maybe,
but I don't think so.
Not sure, but later if I can, Yhwh Willing, I'll look again to see how Yhwh 'breathed' His Word , or told it directly, to Moses, and other men He called and chose for His Purpose.
To
find out, note, Torah is required that shows clearly Yhwh (or Yhvh if you prefer) everyplace His Name was in the original. Most english bibles fall short, almost totally.

Then again, also, perhaps "inspired" is correct - I don't remember ....... might take some time to re-check.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What a question - out of the blue - unexpected. THank God for honest inquiry. :)

What difference does it make if "someone" is "never changing" whether they are able to experience "emotion" or not ?
If God the Father is never changing, does He really have emotion? This is just one of those questions that make you go [emoji55]
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If God the Father is never changing, does He really have emotion? This is just one of those questions that make you go [emoji55]
I think in the OT God was mad and going to cut Israel off until Moses talked with God. So God does have emotion. However that is always righteous, His emotion or anger.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think in the OT God was mad and going to cut Israel off until Moses talked with God. So God does have emotion. However that is always righteous, His emotion or anger.
But a judge can carry out judgement without emotion and a judge can show mercy without emotion. So what if God's wrath and kindness are allegories for God's judgement and mercy? Just a question to marinate on.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Here's where it would be nice to have a six year old child who was raised right and always heard and spoke Hebrew and always faithful to Torah
to sit down with and listen.
If God the Father is never changing, does He really have emotion? This is just one of those questions that make you go > emoji55

I think in the OT God was mad and going to cut Israel off until Moses talked with God. So God does have emotion. However that is always righteous, His emotion or anger.
I am delighted every little bit more I learn of Hebrew in line with all of God's Purpose and Plan and Life and Salvation in Yeshua Messiah - it always CLEARS UP a lot of misconceptions, simply, perfectly and beautifully.
 
Upvote 0

farout

Standing firm for Christ
Nov 23, 2015
1,813
854
Mid West of the good USA
✟14,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Maybe,
but I don't think so.
Not sure, but later if I can, Yhwh Willing, I'll look again to see how Yhwh 'breathed' His Word , or told it directly, to Moses, and other men He called and chose for His Purpose.
To
find out, note, Torah is required that shows clearly Yhwh (or Yhvh if you prefer) everyplace His Name was in the original. Most english bibles fall short, almost totally.

Then again, also, perhaps "inspired" is correct - I don't remember ....... might take some time to re-check.


In the same way as Holy men were led by the Holy spirit to write what He directed them, the Holy Spirit did this with all the writers of all 66 books.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,406
60
✟92,791.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Along with my thread on hell this topic came up. Do Christians believe in the OT anymore? If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever than He also has wrath or is there a different God in the NT?

Of course I think that God has wrath tempered by His Love
Wrath is a human emotion projected onto God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums