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GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at the second of the Ten Commandments and see if we can find anything else about this JEHOVAH, and why it would be important to obey the Ten Commandments:

    Exodus 20:4 KJB - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    Exodus 20:5 KJB - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exodus 20:6 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    JEHOVAH says that we shouldn't make graven images of anything in heaven, earth or water, nor bow down to them nor serve them. But why?

    There are many 'gods' which are represented by idols in the world. Those 'gods' do not seem to mind, and in fact, seem to encourage such practices to such an extent that idols are found in 'religious places' like 'temples', and even in common places like cars, bathrooms, kitchens, workplace, video games, hollywood movies, and even in archtecture and even just on the street. There have even been those of mankind proclaiming to be a 'god' and have made idols of themselves, and even today, in this era there is American-Idol, and Pop-Idols, and Rock-Idols, and Rap-Idols, and Sports-Idols, and on and on it goes. For instance:



    Yet this JEHOVAH says not to do after those other 'gods' practices.

    It would seem JEHOVAH has a likeness and image which cannot truly be copied by art or craft of mankind and is not to be likened unto that which is created, and anything that tried to do so would thus be a false representation, and even lowering the concept of who JEHOVAH is. This would seem to indicate JEHOVAH is above the created.

    Jesus quotes Exodus 20:6 in John 14:15 KJB.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  2. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Why would, those who have the law in their hearts and minds, need to read the letter in order to know what that law is? What is in your mind, you in your mind must surely know, and what is in your heart, MUST bring heartfelt conviction of sin if you wilfully transgress it
     
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    We can look at the third of the Ten Commandments:

    Exodus 20:7 KJB - Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.​

    Here we begin to see JEHOVAH's name associated with His Commandments. A name is representative of character. Thus to take this name in 'vain' is to misrepresent that character, since to take someone's name is for the purpose of upholding that name/character, as in a marriage, or adoption, or to propagate that name/character on behalf of, etc.

    It would be a cruel heart indeed of anyone to take up someone's name upon themselves to then turn around and purposefully bring shame, embarassment, dishonour, denigration, depreciation of nobility, run it through the dirt so to speak, etc. upon it. Thus to violate JEHOVAH's Ten Commandments would also be to violate the character of the author of them.

    This would occur if we picked and chose among those Ten Commandments, as they are a unit, associated with JEHOVAH's very name/character.
     
  4. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    The law is within you, it is not external to you under the NC.

    You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    2Cor3:3

     
  5. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    I went to a church once on a Saturday, to please a friend. At this church, they were in earnest you must obey the TC, and, in reality you could only be in a saved state if you did obey them. And they often quoted the partial letter written in OT law to support their view.
    However, in this church I saw something I had never witnessed in any other church I have ever been to. People were casually taking the Lords name in vain, and laughing, almost hysterically as they did so.
    Therefore, by them relying on what was written down to know what sin is, they could, casually break the TC without having any consciousness they sinned by doing so. The reliable witness comes from within, not what is written down
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  6. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    In coming to the 4th Commandment then, we truly find why we ought to obey the Ten Commandments:

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

    Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    For though in the previous 3 of the Ten Commandments, we begin to understand something of the name/character of JEHOVAH, it is in the 4th Commandment, the very Seal of GOD's Government, His Authority and Rulership is seen:

    The Name: JEHOVAH ["the LORD"]
    The Office: Creator ["made"]
    The Kingdom: Territory ["Heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"], thus owns all that is created, and has the right to make the rules for it.​

    This very JEHOVAH is the God who created everything in 'heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is' in 6 days, and rested the 7th Day, setting His seal over His work, as an Author who was "Finished" with a perfect work.


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    For instance, earthly men/kings also have these seals which stamp their commandments:

    2 Kings 24:1 KJB - In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.

    Daniel 6:9 KJB - Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.

    Daniel 6:15 KJB - Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.

    Daniel 6:17 KJB - And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.​

    This is the reason all of His Ten Commandments are to be kept, since He is the author and finisher of His creation. The Ten Commandments are the unchanging Law of God's Kingdom and Government. God's Law is infallible, since His character is perfect, and unchanging.
     
  7. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    .

    Sadly, people who can only quote the letter, will never appreciate, or be able to discern spiritual reality.
    God told Moses, the Israelites were a stiff necked, heathen people who would soon desert him once they reached the promised land. Most of the time they only sought to mechanically obey, as it were the legalistic law. They in their hearts, obviously did not want to reflect, and contemplate on God and His goodness to them. And so, it is obvious such people were instructed to put aside a certain day to reflect on God, his goodness to them and thank and praise him for his goodness to them.
    However, under the NC, it is a very different covenant, as Jeremiah prophesied. Christ dwells in you through the Spirit. He lives in you. Now if Christ is in you, you cannot fail to meditate on him each and every day of your life(including Saturday). You will naturally reflect on God's goodness to you every day of the week and praise him from your heart for what he has done for you through Christ. The spiritual intent of the fourth commandment, in those TRULY born again is upheld seven days a week. You don't have to be instructed to follow it, you daily want to follow it.
    And of course, Paul reasoned something along these lines himself:

    One man considers one day more sacred/Holy than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in their own mind
    Rom14:5

    Of course, those who can only see the partial letter, cannot understand, or accept this, so they will just keep going with contradictory beliefs. Stating they accept as Christians people who have no consciousness of sin they believe concerns law that is written in their mind and placed on their heart, while at the same time relentlessly quoting 1John3:4&rom3:20

    Those who have to be instructed under the NC to put aside work, in order to meditate on God and his goodness to them on a certain day a week, should reflect as to why that is so. That may be so for them, but it does not follow it is the same for everyone else
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  8. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Who obeys the letter of the TC?

    Paul stated: The letter kills(present, not past tense) He was referring to the TC when he made the statement, and he was writing to believers
    Paul did not state:

    Because Christ dwells in you, you can faultlessly obey the letter of the TC

    John wrote:

    If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

    Same as saying:
    If we claim not to break the law we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstood vs 8:

    1 John 1:7 KJB - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1 John 1:8 KJB - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:9 KJB - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    1 John 1:10 KJB - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

    It's parallel is in vs 10.
     
  10. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us(present tense)

    Do people disagree with John? Do they claim to be perfect in the flesh/sinless?

    Paul tells us the letter of the TC kills(present tense). Do people disagree with Paul also?
     
  11. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, if you can justify breaking the ninth commandment, alongside justifying not practicing what you preach, I suppose you could consider yourself to be without sin. The threshold to pass the test would be extremely low. Much lower than the standard of what it takes to commit sin is actually set at
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Breaking the 4th Commandment [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB] is to break them all, as James says:

    James 2:10 KJB - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.​

    ... but those who willingly justify breaking the 4th Commandment, speak about their internal warm and gushy subjective feelings, rather than the word of God for their actions.
     
  13. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, if people truly wanted to obey the heart of God's laws, they would not for instance, tell you they have answered your specific questions, when they have not. That is being untruthful. They would not ignore the ninth commandment but insist you must obey the fourth commandment as written.
    Preaching the letter of the law must fully be obeyed leads to hypocrisy, for: The letter kills.
    You cannot practice what you preach. So why do it?
    Tis a mystery for sure
     
  14. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    However, under the NC, it is a very different covenant, as Jeremiah prophesied. Christ dwells in you through the Spirit. He lives in you. Now if Christ is in you, you cannot fail to meditate on him each and every day of your life(including Saturday). You will naturally reflect on God's goodness to you every day of the week and praise him from your heart for what he has done for you through Christ. The spiritual intent of the fourth commandment, in those TRULY born again is upheld seven days a week. You don't have to be instructed to follow it, you daily want to follow it.
     
  15. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    But have all those who go to church truly been born again? Is the law written on their hearts and minds, making them conscious of sin when they wilfully transgress it?

    Well some appear to prefer the witness of what is written in ink, rather than the witness in their hearts and minds in order to know the law they must follow. And many can casually, without conscience break the moral law of God, So can they have been truly born again?(just a question, not a judgement)

    As someone once said:
    How can anyone with the moral law written on their hearts and minds believe they faultlessly obey it?

    A good question I thought, as: The letter killls
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    James 2:10 is NT text.
     
  17. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    James2:10 is wonderful scripture, and shows us the truth of the matter:
    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    Therefore, stumble at just one point concerning the law/commit any sin, and you are guilty of breaking the entire law.

    So if your judgement will be based on obeying the TC, it must be sinless perfection or condemnation concerning the letter that kills
     
  18. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Some say you are not placed in a saved state by observing the law, but you can only remain in a saved state if you observe the law.
    They then tell you the Christian is not under righteousness of observing the law

    That's strange, as they are telling you, you can only be righteous before God(in a saved state) if you observe the law But they say, you are not under law concerning righteousness of observing the law.

    The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
    1Cor3:20
     
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Good, thank you for that admission Marco70. You then agree that the Ten Commandments are still valid for the Christian [as James was], including the 4th Commandment [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB] in its explicit words, to this very day, and to transgress a single one of them is to break them all. Thank you for that.

    James 2:11 KJB - For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.​
     
  20. Marco70

    Marco70 Well-Known Member

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    Sigh.

    The spiritual intent of the fourth commandment, in those TRULY born again is upheld seven days a week. You don't have to be instructed to follow it, you daily want to follow it.

    It seems, those who believe your judgement will be based on observing the TC, don't want to address the fact, James2:10 requires sinless perfection concerning the law or you have broken all of it
     
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