GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[EastCoastRemnant]

Not according to John 5:24.

The key to that verse is "and hears my words". The Commandments are included in those words.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree. I'm afraid they are reduced to making pat statements from their heads that have no bearing on the reality of their own lives. I grew up with it! I can only repeat. Over decades I have seen, the people who most earnestly insist you must obey the TC/to remain saved/be in a saved state/attain heaven etc, etc, are the very people who can most casually break the moral law, and justify sin as no sin at all.
I think it has something to do with, only recognising sin by reading the OT law-in many cases.

Seeing as how you seem to know me or others, can you help me to understand which Law I'm in violation of? Thanx...

 

[Marco70]

Seeing as how you seem to me or others, can you help me to understand which Law I'm in violation of? Thanx...

Firstly, do you believe every law/commandment God desires you to follow stems from the TC? So if you obey the TC you obey every commandment God desires you to follow?

 

[Marco70]

Seeing as how you seem to know me or others, can you help me to understand which Law I'm in violation of? Thanx...

To answer your specific question, in a bit of detail. Paul states:The letter kills(present, not past tense) 2Cor3:6) As you know, he was referring to the TC when he wrote that. And he was writing it to believers.

John tells us:

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1John 1:8)

You would agree, that is the same as saying:

If we claim not to break the law, we are deceived, and the truth is not in us.


Getting back to 2Cor3:6. The only problem in lawkeeping was the TC/moral law. Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey the law we often term the legalistic law(Phil 3:6 NIV) As could people who did not know God when Christ walked this earth. Paul referred to the TC as the ministry of death and condemnation.

So was Paul wrong, or do people today not understand what is involved in obeying the TC?

Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law. The example he gave was: Thou shalt not covet. He spent most of Rom ch7 writing about that particular commandment. Verses7-11 explained why he had to die to the law(thou shalt not covet was given as the example) And verses 14-24 explain his struggles and failure to keep the commandment. I would think, many today emphathise much with what he wrote.

In order to obey the TC, you can dwell on no impure thought, easy to say I guess, but I wonder how many can claim that? You cannot look at a woman with lust in your eye(Jesus ratified the commandment) You cannot get angry without just cause(and must not make excuses to have a just cause) You must not build any graven image in your mind(as well as physically building one) You mustn’t desire anything that is anyone elses. Basically, you must uphold the law regarding the inner man, law that only you and God need know you break. How many always do that?

But law Goes much further than that. The second most important commandment, is: Love your neighbour as yourself. To obey that, you must make sure you do not demand of others what you do not demand of yourself. You cannot make excuses for your own shortcomings, while insisting everybody else fully obeys the law(I'm not saying you do, but it is relevant to the point)


Then there is Jesus teaching, which I am sure you would consider as weighty as the TC. You must love your enemies, those who may malign, persecute, mistreat or slander you. And you cannot just do it occasionally.


As I wrote the post you responded to, I was not thinking of you, you seem to me to have a different outlook than some others

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

To answer your specific question, in a bit of detail. Paul states:The letter kills(present, not past tense) 2Cor3:6) As you know, he was referring to the TC when he wrote that. And he was writing it to believers.

John tells us:

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1John 1:8)

You would agree, that is the same as saying:

If we claim not to break the law, we are deceived, and the truth is not in us.


Getting back to 2Cor3:6. The only problem in lawkeeping was the TC/moral law. Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey the law we often term the legalistic law(Phil 3:6 NIV) As could people who did not know God when Christ walked this earth. Paul referred to the TC as the ministry of death and condemnation.

So was Paul wrong, or do people today not understand what is involved in obeying the TC?

Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law. The example he gave was: Thou shalt not covet. He spent most of Rom ch7 writing about that particular commandment. Verses7-11 explained why he had to die to the law(thou shalt not covet was given as the example) And verses 14-24 explain his struggles and failure to keep the commandment. I would think, many today emphathise much with what he wrote.

In order to obey the TC, you can dwell on no impure thought, easy to say I guess, but I wonder how many can claim that? You cannot look at a woman with lust in your eye(Jesus ratified the commandment) You cannot get angry without just cause(and must not make excuses to have a just cause) You must not build any graven image in your mind(as well as physically building one) You mustn’t desire anything that is anyone elses. Basically, you must uphold the law regarding the inner man, law that only you and God need know you break. How many always do that?

But law Goes much further than that. The second most important commandment, is: Love your neighbour as yourself. To obey that, you must make sure you do not demand of others what you do not demand of yourself. You cannot make excuses for your own shortcomings, while insisting everybody else fully obeys the law(I'm not saying you do, but it is relevant to the point)


Then there is Jesus teaching, which I am sure you would consider as weighty as the TC. You must love your enemies, those who may malign, persecute, mistreat or slander you. And you cannot just do it occasionally.


As I wrote the post you responded to, I was not thinking of you, you seem to me to have a different outlook than some others

The TC is our guide from which the Spirit convicts... all it does is point out our sin to us.

 

[Marco70]

The TC is our guide from which the Spirit convicts... all it does is point out our sin to us.

I would agree, the law in our heart points out, makes us conscious of our sin. But here maybe where the core disagreement is. Paul's Gospel message hinges on you knowing your righteousness/justification before God is faith in Christ, not observing the law. That is how you overcome sin(though obviously not to the point of being perfect in the flesh.)
If you say to someone, they can only remain in a saved state, if they obey the law/commandments, in the real world, they will judge the basis of their continued christianity on observing the law, not faith in Christ. For they can only then be in a saved/righteous state if they observe the law. They must then live under a righteousness of observing the law.
You may disagree, you may think such is a licence to sin.
However, it comes down to what we believe born again entails. Does it entail us being supernaturally changed from being people who seek to live as we would naturally desire to live, into people who in our hearts want to live as God desires us to live/the law is in our hearts and minds? Such people do not need to be told they must obey the law to remain saved/attain heaven. For they feel their shortcomings acutely and do not want them. All you do by preaching law then is to make them feel worse than they already do for their imperfections. The fact such pople can believe their continued salvation does not hinge on observing the law, but faith in Christ, could not bring them to conclude they then have a licence to sin, for in their heart they want to obey God.

Once you put the emphasis on obeying the law, you place someone under the law. That's the real world.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I would agree, the law in our heart points out, makes us conscious of our sin. But here maybe where the core disagreement is. Paul's Gospel message hinges on you knowing your righteousness/justification before God is faith in Christ, not observing the law. That is how you overcome sin(though obviously not to the point of being perfect in the flesh.)
If you say to someone, they can only remain in a saved state, if they obey the law/commandments, in the real world, they will judge the basis of their continued christianity on observing the law, not faith in Christ. For they can only then be in a saved/righteous state if they observe the law. They must then live under a righteousness of observing the law.
You may disagree, you may think such is a licence to sin.
However, it comes down to what we believe born again entails. Does it entail us being supernaturally changed from being people who seek to live as we would naturally desire to live, into people who in our hearts want to live as God desires us to live/the law is in our hearts and minds? Such people do not need to be told they must obey the law to remain saved/attain heaven. For they feel their shortcomings acutely and do not want them. All you do by preaching law then is to make them feel worse than they already do for their imperfections. The fact such pople can believe their continued salvation does not hinge on observing the law, but faith in Christ, could not bring them to conclude they then have a licence to sin, for in their heart they want to obey God.

Once you put the emphasis on obeying the law, you place someone under the law. That's the real world.

Did not Paul write that he did not know lust except the Law stated though shall not covet? We still need the Law to show us the way of salvation. Not that salvation is of keeping the Law but disobedience to the Law results in judgement if not repented of.

 

[Marco70]

Did not Paul write that he did not know lust except the Law stated though shall not covet? We still need the Law to show us the way of salvation. Not that salvation is of keeping the Law but disobedience to the Law results in judgement if not repented of.

But we have the law, it is written in our minds and placed on our hearts. Because it is placed in our hearts, we in our hearts want to please God and live as he desires us to live. What happens when you go against how you in your heart know you should live/want to live? You are filled with remorse, for your conscience is seered. We will have no rest, and no peace until we come before our Father in Heaven and tell him we are sorry for how we acted.
If you committed what we term wilfull sin, wouldn't you be filled with remorse? When you let God down, don't you go to him and tell him you are sorry for how you acted? Then and only then do you get your peace back. Because the law is in our hearts, and we react that way when we let God down: our sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more unto condemnation.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: Ye MUST be born again. John3:6
No one can see the kingdom of God, UNLESS they are born again John3:3
Only those born again, those who have the law in their hearts can see the kingdom of God, for otherwise they cannot have a saviour from their sin. For Jesus will be no ones saviour from sin, unless they in their heart want to obey His Father/live as he wants them to live

 

[klutedavid]

Did not Paul write that he did not know lust except the Law stated though shall not covet? We still need the Law to show us the way of salvation. Not that salvation is of keeping the Law but disobedience to the Law results in judgement if not repented of.

The letter of the law states, thou shall not kill.

Jesus said, call someone a fool and burn.

Was Jesus expanding the letter of the law itself or was Jesus slamming the door shut, on any attempt at self justification through the law?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The letter of the law states, thou shall not kill.

Jesus said, call someone a fool and burn.

Was Jesus expanding the letter of the law itself or was Jesus slamming the door shut, on any attempt at self justification through the law?

Expanding...

Who said anything about justification? We're talking sanctification...

 

[klutedavid]

Expanding...

Who said anything about justification? We're talking sanctification...

So let's assume that Jesus is expanding the law as you say. We will use the law against murder as shown below.

Thou shall not murder.

This letter of the law has been revised and now becomes.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

If someone asks you what the ten commandments are do you then quote the Exodus commandments, or the revised and expanded letter of the law?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Both... depends on the situation and individual.

 

[Marco70]

So let's assume that Jesus is expanding the law as you say. We will use the law against murder as shown below.

Thou shall not murder.

This letter of the law has been revised and now becomes.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

If someone asks you what the ten commandments are do you then quote the Exodus commandments, or the revised and expanded letter of the law?

Good point. I wonder which list the person who wrote the following was thinking of:

''Listed, we can have total victory over every sin, in the here and now, even victory over sin daily. It is possible, in Christ Jesus to overcome all things, and to walk with God in His commandments. All of them. Faith. Why did Israel of old fail? it wasn't because the commandments were too hard''

Though Paul considered the letter of the TC to be the letter that kills. And he was not speaking in the past tense, but the present tense when he wrote that to Christians.
He did not say:
''Now Christ dwells in you, you can obey the letter of the TC''

He said: The letter kills

Something, some of our sda brethren appear unable to accept

 

[The7thColporteur]

...He said: The letter kills
...

Marco70, did the Ten Commandments exist before being written upon stone tables at Mt. Sinai, according to scripture [KJB]?

 

[Marco70]

Now what I am commanding you today(the given law) is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so that we may obey it?’ 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you may obey it.

Deut30:11-14

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

2Cor3:6-9

Moses told the people that to obey the law would not be difficult or beyond their reach to obey. Paul told people, the TC were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Is there a contradiction? No!

You can follow the Spirit of the law, but NOT the letter of the law. The letter kills.



You can love God and in your heart want to please and obey him, but though you want to obey him you never will in your humanity perfectly obey him(obey the letter) you will transgress the letter. But you are then following after the Spirit of the law, for you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live However, to faultlessly obey the letter, you will never do, as Paul states: The letter kills(present, not past tense)


Therefore as John states:


If we claim to be without sin(faultlessly obey the letter) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8


Therefore anyone who tells you, it is possible to fully obey the letter of the law/commandments, is preaching what bears no reality to their own life.

As the Pharisees of Jesus day were guilty of. They simply recited the letter and insisted the people must fully obey it. Hence they crushed the people with loads they did not try and bear themselves.

 

[The7thColporteur]

That's what I thought you'd say.

Hey Marco70, another question.

Why should anyone obey this command? - Ephesians 6:2 KJB - Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

as a PS question, where is the "promise" in that commandment found to be written?

 

[Marco70]

Some people only have the ability to ask questions it seems, not answer them(post813)
Schucks, anyone can do that

 

[The7thColporteur]

Some people only have the ability to ask questions it seems, not answer them(post813)
Schucks, anyone can do that

Are you reproaching Christ's method of answering a question with a question which answers the first?

Mark 11:29 KJB - And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Mark 11:30 KJB - The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
​

Post 856 - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

 

[Marco70]

Then you get excuses. The first question was posed in post 813. The question has been ignored.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Then you get excuses. The first question was posed in post 813. The question has been ignored.

Not so Marco70, since it has explained ad nauseum, that 'love to God and neighbour' are in the context of the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17; Deuteronomy 5:6-21 KJB], Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (vs 5); Leviticus 19:17-18.

Therefore, again:

Marco70, did the Ten Commandments exist before being written upon stone tables at Mt. Sinai, according to scripture [KJB]?

Why should anyone obey this command? - Ephesians 6:2 KJB - Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

as a PS question, where is the "promise" in that commandment found to be written?​