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GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    PART 1/2


    The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

    JOHN 8:33-45

    33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

    They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

    Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

    Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

    It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

    Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    So there seems to be a trend here.

    The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

    Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

    So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

    And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

    There were more than just Zacharias.

    Matthew 2:1-2 1, Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

    2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

    Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

    And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

    Acts 5:32-33 33, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

    Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

    So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

    This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

    It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
    It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

    So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

    If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

    I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

    But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

    23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

    Matthew 10:22
    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

    My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

    John 3:19
    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

    20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

    21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

    So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

    Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

    The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment through there man made traditions that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

    This was never how the Sabbath was to be kept. What did Jesus teach us about the Sabbath? Let's look to the Word of God.....

    1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
    2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
    3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
    4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
    5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
    6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
    7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
    8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
    9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

    God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly and willfully break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

    God gives us the other six days to labor and work and do whatever we like. We worship God everyday but the 7th Day God says is a Holy day that God has made for His people. Jesus is the maker of this day. It is the "Lords Day" and God has commanded us to keep it Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Exodus 20:8-11). The Sabbath is a sign that we worship the only true God of creation (Ezekiel 20:12). We follow Jesus because we love him (John 14:15;15:10). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we walk by faith in His Spirit.




    Thanks also to a friend (Studyman) from CC for the inspiration and contribution to this OP. May God bless you as you all as you seek him through His Word.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  2. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    Heb 8:8 For finding fault, He saith to them, `Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,
    Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing

    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye who are willing to be under law, the law do ye not hear?
    Gal 4:22 for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman,
    Gal 4:23 but he who is of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who is of the free-woman, through the promise;
    Gal 4:24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;
    Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now is , and is in servitude with her children,
    Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
    Gal 4:28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise,
    Gal 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Cast forth the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;'
    Gal 4:31 then, brethren, we are not a maid-servant's children, but the free-woman's.
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

    United States

    (CLV) Hb 1:9
    Thou lovest righteousness (kept THE LAW) and hatest injustice (disregard for THE LAW) ; Therefore Thou art anointed by The God, (tou theou) (YHWH), Thy God, with the oil of exultation beyond Thy partners."

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:9
    Everyone who is begotten of The God, (tou theou) (YHWH) is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of The God (tou theou) (YHWH).

    (CLV) Mt 5:17
    "You should not infer that I came to demolish THE LAW or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

    (CLV) Mt 5:18
    For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from THE LAW till all should be occurring.

    (CLV) Mt 5:19
    "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:4
    Everyone who is doing sin, is doing LAWLESSNESS also, and sin is LAWLESSNESS.

    (CLV) Mt 24:12
    And, because of the multiplication of LAWLESSNESS, the love of many shall be cooling.

    (CLV) Mt 24:13
    Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:4
    He who is saying that I know him, and is not keeping his precepts, is a liar; and the truth of The God, (tou theou) (YHWH) is not in this one.

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:8
    Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this, was the Son of The God (tou theou) (YHWH manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.

    (CLV) Mt 23:28
    Thus you, also, outside, indeed, are appearing to men to be just, yet inside you are distended with hypocrisy and LAWLESSNESS.

    (CLV) Mt 7:21
    "Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.

    (CLV) Mt 7:22
    Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

    (CLV) Mt 7:23
    And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers~ of LAWLESSNESS!'

    (CLV) Mt 13:41
    The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing LAWLESSNESS,
  4. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

    Question for all. If the law (Torah) is what is written on our hearts then why do those who claim they keep the law wear clothes without tassels and do not wear the Yarmulke. Are you allowing the barber to trim your sideburns?
  5. listed

    listed are you?

    Excellent questions which still remain unanswered.
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Hello Bob, the power of FAITH is LOVE and it is LOVE that fulfills the LAW in the heart of flesh in those who walk by FAITH in God's Spirit. Jesus bids us come and we walk on water. LOVE is indeed the fulfilling of God's LAW in the heart of those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who calls them.
  7. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    Those were some of the the requirements under the OC but under the new, we don't need the outward signs as we have them on our heart, inward.
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello LGW.

    We are not under the law.

    Romans 2:14
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

    Acts 13:39
    And through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

    Romans 6:14
    For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    Romans 6:15
    What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

    Romans 6:18
    And having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

    Romans 6:22
    But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

    Romans 7:4
    Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.

    Romans 7:6
    But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

    Galatians 2:19
    19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

    Galatians 3:10
    For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

    Galatians 3:24-25
    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    Galatians 5:18
    But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

    Ephesians 2:15
    By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

    1 Timothy 1:9
    Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

    Hebrews 7:18-19
    For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    2 Corinthians 3:7
    But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was.
  9. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    Yes, we get the point that you do not submit yourself to God's Commandments. If you are settled in your mind on that, there's nothing really to say.
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    United States
    Ex 34
    And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.
    28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
    29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain)

    The “TERM” TEN COMMANDMENTs applies ONLY to those words written on stone. A distinct unit – a distinct “name”. They are not called the “613 Commandments” and they are not downsized to something called “The NINE commandments” by NT authors or OT authors – “no not in all of scripture”!

    Deut 5
    22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

    Deuteronomy 4:13
    "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

    Deuteronomy 10:4
    "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

    Deut 5
    19 " You shall not steal.
    20 " You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    21 " You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.'

    Moses reminds them that they “heard God’s Voice” they HEARD Him “speak”.
    And "yes" this case is even made in Exodus 20 --

    Ex 20
    22 Then the LORD said to Moses, ""Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.

    He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.

    5th Commandment: “Word of God” = “Commandment of God” = “Moses said” Mark 7:13
    NT “ScriptureJames 2:8
    NT “Law” – James 2:9-11 includes “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.”
    NT Commandments Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    Eph 6:2 “the first commandment with a promise” in the TEN Commandments – is the fifth commandment

    Which Commandments?” – Matt 19:17-19

    “‘You shall not murder,’
    ‘You shall not commit adultery,’
    ‘You shall not steal,’
    ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
    19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’
    and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

    Same unchanged list as we find in Romans 13 after the cross.

    Even though only two of the TEN commandments are even mentioned in Ex 34 - among the "other commands" that God gave to Moses -- yet the it is the distinct unit of "ten" that continues to be quoted from in the NT in places like Matthew 22, Romans 13, James 2, Romans 7, Eph 6:2 etc.
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    United States
    Because the New Covenant writes them moral law of God on the heart - not the ceremonial law.. as even the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" admit freely.

    So just stating the obvious at that point.

    New Covenant can be found here Jeremiah 31:31-33 and here Heb 8:6-12

    "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

    So then still a sin to "take God's name in vain" even for New Covenant Saints.


    BTW thread title fits Mark 7 perfectly --

    Mark 7
    6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
    ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far away from Me.
    7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
    8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
    9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

    Christ said "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

    The TEN Commandments are in the "obey and live" covenant - the "old covenant". Under which all those who are lost -- are bound to that covenant - in both OT and NT.

    The TEN Commandments are also in the NEW Covenant "Written on the heart and mind" - and all those under it - are saved -- in both OT. and NT.
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  12. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello ECR.

    I do submit myself to the commandments specified in the new covenant.

    Obviously, you submit yourself to the commandments specified in the old covenant.
  13. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello Bob.

    The Sabbath is definitely not a moral law, you can't get around that.
  14. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    What is important to God is moral. Disregarding a day Sanctified and made Holy by God for the purpose of communing with us is the height of immorality.

    Let's see... God twice communicated the importance of the Sabbath with two great events... creation and the Sinai experience. Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath and that He made it for all mankind. Does that seem like something that can be disregarded because of something you interpreted Paul to have said?
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello ECR.

    Still the Sabbath is not a moral commandment, the Sabbath is a holy day that Israel needed to obey. We Gentiles were never commanded to obey a Sabbath day. The only day that Gentiles celebrated in church history, was the day of the Lord's resurrection. To avoid celebrating the Lord's resurrection, you must ignore church history.

    You need to take a hard look at Acts 15, the Gentiles were never told that they were under the law. The Jerusalem council was exactly the place where Gentiles, were told what was important, what was required of them. No mention of the ten commandments and certainly nothing about the Sabbath.

    You are jammed in the old covenant law and you misunderstand the superiority of the new covenant.
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  16. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    So the fact that Jesus said the Sabbath was made for mankind means nothing to you... I hope your Acts 15 saves you... I'll follow what Jesus said.
  17. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello ECR.

    That the Sabbath was made for mankind, is an old creation instruction. You missed the fact that we are members of the new creation. New creatures based on the new image of Christ.

    Romans 8:29
    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

    You must be born again.
  18. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    Believe as you wish... it's your eternity. I'll do the same.
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Yes well said nice to meet you ECR :wave:

    Everyone can choose for themselves what they believe. It is God's Word that will judge us however come Judgement day.
  20. listed

    listed are you?

    Just out of context and agreement with Moses. It appears you don't believe Moses.