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Featured God loves everyone?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It’s only clear for those who ignore the previous 14 chapters.
     
  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God certainly implies that He loves both the just and the unjust ...

    Matthew 5

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

    45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

    47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

    48 Be thou, therefore, perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
     
  3. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Not very clear actually. There is nothing more than assumption that a non-fruit bearing branch (metaphor) effectually represents a person who, in that moment, has salvation. We must reconcile scripture with scripture, and therefore John 6 shows that Christ will never lose anything that the Father gives to Him.

    We are off topic though.
     
  4. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    @Hammster

    I think this topic, IMO, is put to rest by looking at 1 Corinthians 13, and defining what true Love doesn't do:

    Keeps no record of wrongs

    Therefore, if any person's sin is effectual for their own condemnation, then how can anyone claim that God loves them?
     
  5. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Agree and the word might here is not a maybe, God's love makes it happen.
    1 JOHN 4:9
    KJ21 In this was manifested the love of God toward us: that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

    And the 'we' is the church of believers, not unbelievers.
    Reading that verse as just a possibility of the world living because of God's love is wrong reading of the meaning, but people do that all the time with scriptures.

    The love of God was manifested towards US who believe, not the world of unbelief. If something is manifested then it is made evident, an actuality.
     
  6. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Amen. He keeps no record of wrongs because we are forgiven via Christ's sanctifying work on the Cross!
     
  7. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Absolutely, and makes sense.
    We live because of God's great love for us which is why He made us alive who were dead in sin and following after Satan and had no interest in being Christianized at the time, Ephesians 2, by grace you have been saved.
    God does that so that no flesh can boast in His presence.

    1 John 3:1
    [ The Command to Love ] Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  8. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Titus 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Graces of the Heirs of Grace

    1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

    4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
    5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Here we read of the Love of God towards man, but don't stop there, as that Love God had is why He had mercy on you to save you. That is what He poured out, His love for those He desired to show mercy on.
    Love toward man resulted not in all men having that Love of God, or all He would have had mercy on and saved. Love toward man is why man can be saved, not that he loves all men and saves them all.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I guess John Calvin was the first Christian to read John 1-14?
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I believe we’re still on topic to where the discussion is leading us. I mean we’re talking about predestination which is dependent on eternal salvation.

    Actually John 6:39 says it is the will (thélēma G2307 desire) of Him who sent Me that I lose nothing or none.

    “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    This is the same word used in 1 Timothy 2:4 (thélō G2309 desire) except in 1 Timothy the verb form is used and in John 6:39 the noun form is used.

    “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    So John 6:39 is basically saying the same thing as 1 Timothy 2:3-4. God does not desire any to perish.
     
  12. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Such a narrative challenges either God's Omniscience and/or God's Creatorship. If either can be debunked, I would concede to the understandings of free will, and reject my premise of divine choice/sovereignty. Romans 9 is concrete in this though, and it "does not depend on man's desire or efforts, but on God's mercy"

    To reconcile this seeming contradiction, and to maintain the faith in God's divine attributes, and I'm glad you broached the issue, we must look to the original greek in context. The adjective used to describe the people is "pas, or πᾶς," and therefore the verse is understood, in context, to refer to believers...those who have been reborn in Spirit. So it would seem to me that the verses would be better understood as "all of you" rather than literally "all people."

    If God so desired ALL PEOPLE (literally) to come to faith, why would He create people He knows will never believe? Whether they have a true choice to choose Him or not is irrelevant. His foreknowledge demonstrates this explicitly. I do not ask this question rhetorically, but ask that you frame your reply either to refute God's Omniscience or His Creatorship (either would be sufficient) to debunk my position.
     
  13. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Bless you my friend, conditional salvation does not challenge God’s omniscience. John 15:1-10 simply challenges Calvin’s doctrines. Even the earliest church writings refute eternal security and predestination. These doctrines didn’t exist in the church until John Calvin invented them in the 16th century. Hence the name Calvinism.

    About Romans 9

    “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, " FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:16-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    What are your thoughts on Romans 9:22? How did God endure much patience with the vessels of wrath? These people have sealed their own fate not God my friend. The vessels of wrath made their own choice not to repent and as a result of God’s omniscience He foresaw their disobedience and chose them as vessels of destruction so that His glory would be seen by the world. God empowered Pharaoh knowing he would disobey and God gave Pharaoh many chances to repent and Pharaoh refused. Pharaoh at that time was probably one of if not the most powerful man on the planet all due to God’s plan and foreknowledge to show His might & glory to the world. But even to Pharaoh God endured much patience with Him. Now think about that for a moment. If God decided and decreed that Pharaoh will not repent as a result of God’s decision then how did God endure with much patience to Pharaoh if Pharaoh had no choice in the matter? God’s decree would be the cause of Pharaoh’s disobedience and not Pharaoh himself.

    As for 1 Timothy 2:3-4 look at 2 Peter 3:9 which again says the same thing. I believe I already pointed out that 2 Peter does not use the word ánthrōpos G444. Instead Peter simply said God is not willing (desiring) that ANY should perish but that ALL come to repentance. So Peter says it two ways in the same sentence that God is not wanting anyone to perish and that He wants all to be saved. It wouldn’t make sense to translate it to say the God doesn’t want any to perish but wants some to be saved. If He doesn’t want any to perish then He obviously wants all to be saved. So if by 2 Peter 3:9 we can see in two ways that God desires all to be saved then we can conclude that 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is confirming the same statement.
     
  14. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I must disagree. I don't see how it does.

    By creating them and not yet destroying them. Even the damned have a purpose.

    We will only do that which it is in our nature to do.

    Agreed. But such a position fails to address the "why" they "chose" such things. Look at John 6:64; why did they not believe? Because they didn't have the capacity nor the capability to do so. John 12:40

    By not destroying him and rather sending the plagues instead. In the end, Pharaoh was destroyed, having fulfilled his created purpose.

    "any [of you]" and "all [of you]"

    Then you need to answer me: Why does God create those who will never believe? How can He desire something He knows will literally never even be a potential possibility? Such an idea, such narrative, is disingenuous. You must either reject Omniscience, or reject His Creatorship in order to accept such a narrative.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That is categorically false.

    (Per.) “Whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?” Clement of Rome.
     
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  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that doesn’t bear fruit. John 15:6 Anyone who does not abide (remain, stay, continue) in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. As you stated we only do what is in our nature to do so how can these who are cut off by The Father and these who fail to abide in Christ even be in Christ to begin with if they are not elected by God? If they have not the capacity to believe how were they ever in Christ to begin with?

    It’s hard to say why exactly they were not permitted to understand. Most likely they were not godly men.

    “Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome (accepted or approved) to Him.”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (power, authority) to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Yes as a result of his repeated disobedience not as a result of God making a decree that would restrict Pharaoh from obeying because then it would be God who is responsible for pharaoh’s disobedience and not Pharaoh himself.

    Because God created everyone with their own free will. Why do you think we’re here in this world? What is our purpose for being here? If God wanted to choose who would be obedient then He could’ve just made us to be obedient in heaven without ever having lived in this world. But this world serves a purpose and so does our free will. God desires our love. Love is a gift given freely. God wants us to choose to love Him of our own free will. That’s the only way love can truly be genuine and valuable. Sure He could’ve just created us to love Him against our will but without free will how is love of any value? This doesn’t reject God’s omniscience, His omnipotence, or His sovereignty in any way if that’s the way He deemed it to be. But honestly the way your saying that God creates people and doesn’t allow them the capacity to believe and obey then judges and punishes them in the lake of fire for all eternity is a pretty terrible way to view God who IS LOVE. The God your describing would be unjust because He never gave those He judges and punishes the capability of obeying.
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Great observation and while there is a lot to unpack there (naturally a part of the vine versus being grafted in being analogous to Jews vs Gentiles), the question is what are they doing there in the first place. I believe all of humanity has some relationship with God, realized or not, via a few things: Being created in His Image, being lead in a particular direction (Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and the rhetorical [but is it really?] question presented in Romans 9:19), and ultimately judgement.

    Again, the narrative fails to ask the "why" necessary to really get into the meat and potatoes of this, so I will ask it. Why did the branch not bear fruit? A branch disconnected from the roots cannot bear fruit at all, but a branch connected to the roots that still does not bear fruit has a problem. Does a branch choose whether it bears fruit or not? Of course it doesn't. A branch isn't cognitive, but neither is sinful unrepentant man cognitive of spiritual things. In the same way, a branch failing to bear fruit does so because it doesn't have the ability to do so, and it is the same with man.


    We are all ungodly at certain times. So is it by man's own will that he becomes righteous, or God's? You will say man must choose, but I say that man doesn't have the ability to even begin to choose unless God moves his heart to such ability (Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31).

    These verses simply, IMO, bolster my argument: God gives it, man does not self-manifest it; including the fear of the Lord.


    And why did they disobey?


    Free will is an illusion, and potentially blasphemy, where man attempts to drive a theological narrative that results in man rejecting God's sovereignty to place himself equal if not above God. I would be very careful with that. We can only do that which is our nature to do. If you have free will there is no need for Christ, for you can simply will yourself into sinlessness (James 3:2).

    To answer your question: We are ALL (the saved and the damned) created for a purpose. That purpose is outlined explicitly in Romans 9.

    That choice is eternally apparent to Him though, so how can you say that it's what He wants. Unless the premise of your narrative is simply that God rarely gets what He wants. Is that the truth?

    Says who? I don't find that in 1 Corinthians 13. Somewhere in the timeline of history, man's understanding of love changed. Look at the world now: We have traded real love for notions of tolerance and acceptance; forcing truth to take a backseat, yet Scripture tells us that love abides in the truth and does not rejoice in evil. How far we have fallen, brother...too far.

    Because of the fruit it produces.

    As with most of contemporary Christianity, we have falsely conflated "God is love" with "God loves everyone." I cannot repeat myself enough. If God loves everyone then universalism is true because "love keeps no record of wrongs." If God loves you then your sins are forgiven.

    On the contrary, your description paints God as a monster. Does a mother not, potentially on a daily basis, intervene on a child's "free will" to keep that child safe; yet you tell me God is unwilling to do so with those you claim He loves? Monstrous I tell you....and suggests a human mother has more love for her human child than God has love for our souls. I reject such sentiments. The God of the Bible protects His Children, even from, and especially from, their very selves: 1 John 5:18
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  18. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Bless you friend, the message in John 15:1-10 is not about carnal knowledge or a superficial connection with Christ. Please keep in mind Jesus’ audience. He is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles here. This takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has just left the group to go and betray Jesus and only Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are present for this message. So He is speaking only to true believers who are in an intimate relationship with Christ. There are some clues here to indicate the context of His message. Notice He says to them

    “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    If Jesus were merely referring to a superficial connection to Him then no one in that state would be capable of bearing fruit because they would still be in their sinful natural state. Only when we have an intimate relationship with Christ are we capable of bearing fruit. So when He says “Abide in Me” it can only stand to reason that He is speaking of an intimate relationship, not a superficial connection. In a way the cutting off mentioned in John 15:2 is similar to the reference in Romans 11:17-22 of being cut off from the olive tree. Again it is The Father that does both the grafting in and the cutting off and it is the branches (believers) who are supported by the root (Christ). In this example those who are grafted in are done so because of their belief and the cutting off is contingent on the unbelief. So again only believers are grafted in. So both John 15:2 and John 15:6 can only be referring to true believers not a superficial connection with God or mere carnal knowledge of Him.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You’re getting closer.
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    But the word used “welcome” means to accept or approve not to appoint or elect and my point was that God will accept all who do what is right. This was in reply to your comment concerning John 6:64-65 about how no one can come to Christ unless The Father has granted them. I’ve shown He will accept all who do what is right according to Acts 10:34-35.
     
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