• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured God loves everyone?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That’s not what Paul said friend.

    “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Universalism contradicts these passages of scripture my friend.

    “"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    If at anytime everyone enters the kingdom of heaven then this statement is incorrect.

    “"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
    ‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    If at anytime blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven then these statements are incorrect.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We don’t know for sure. The scriptures were written after that time so the instructions for salvation during that time period were not really important to understand at the later time when the scriptures were actually written. God had only made a covenant with Noah and his family. No one else was included in that covenant. So the instructions for salvation could’ve been different if salvation was even an option for those people. God had never promised anyone eternal life in heaven before the New Covenant. Even in the Old Covenant eternal life was not promised by God. He promised them prosperity in this world not eternal life in heaven.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,238
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I would say unwilling, not unable. There’s no affection in him towards God that would make him want to repent. That’s why we must be born again.

    Your theology has no answer for that, except your vague “God does something”.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,302
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I suppose that depends on which Bible version one uses friend.
    Let's look at it

    King James Bible
    Who will have
    all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Who will have
    all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    Young's Literal Translation
    who doth will
    all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

    Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

    4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.

    G2309 (NKJV)
    G2309 θέλω (thelō), occurs 213 times in 201 verses

    2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138;
    to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
    ===================
    1 Timothy 2:4 Commentaries biblehub

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    4. who will have] The exact rendering is that of R.V. who willeth that all men should he saved—not the stronger word bouletai, ‘desireth,’ with a definite purpose. Chrysostom’s comment is “if He willed to save all, do thou will it also; and if thou willest, pray for it”: and Theod. Mops, in the Latin translation “evidens est quoniam omnes vult salvari, quia et omnes tuetur, quia est omnium Dominus.”
    Thus the Greek fathers accepted St Paul’s words in their prima facie sense.

    The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.
    be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth] Notice the order of the words; salvation is according to the N. T. usage, past, present and future.
    ============
    Bengel's Gnomen
    1 Timothy 2:4. Πάντας) all, not merely a part, much less a very small part; 1 Timothy 2:3, note.—ἀνθρώπους, men) lost in themselves.—θέλει, [‘wills’] wishes) in serious earnestness of wish: ibid.—σωθῆναι, to be saved) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:5-6.—Καὶ εἰς, and unto) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:6-7.—ἀληθείας) of saving truth.—ἐλθεῖν, to come) They are not forced.
    =====================
    Pulpit Commentary
    Verse 4. - Willeth that all men should be saved for will have all men to be saved, A.V.; come to for to come unto, A.V. All men, etc.; to show that it is in accordance with God's will to pray for "all men" (ver. 1). (For the doctrinal statement, comp. ver. 6; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9, etc.)
    ==========
    Vincent's Word Studies
    Who will have all men to be saved
    (ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
    Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose.

    Come to the knowledge of the truth (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν)

    The phrase only here and 2 Timothy 3:7. Ἑπίγνωσις is a favorite Pauline word. See on Romans 3:20; see on Colossians 1:9; see on 1 Timothy 2:4; see on 1 Timothy 4:3. It signifies advanced or full knowledge. The difference between the simple γνῶσις and the compound word is illustrated in Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, and 1 Corinthians 13:12. In N.T. always of the knowledge of things ethical or divine, and never ascribed to God. For ἀλήθεια truth, see on sound doctrine, 1 Timothy 1:10. It appears 14 times in the Pastorals, and always without a defining genitive. So, often in Paul, but several times with a defining genitive, as truth of God, of Christ, of the gospel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  5. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    And ignore every other verse that warns us that those who are still under sin are condemned? I can pick one verse out of the Bible twist its meaning, and say almost anything. There's a verse in the Psalms that says it's blessed to bash a newborn's head on a rock. Perhaps someone has built a whole theology around that verse? It sounds good to believe that everyone will go to heaven, but the truth is, for the unrepentant person heaven would be hell. I do believe there will be people from so-called heathen Nations who have followed the light they have been given and been saved. Jesus said those who seek will find.
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,302
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Praise the Lord.........

    Isaiah 65:1 I have been inquired of by those who asked not, I have been found by those who sought Me not, I have said, 'Behold Me, behold Me,' Unto a nation not calling in My name.

    Romans 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me."
    Hell is scary.......

    Please view my Rich Man and Lazarus thread concerning Gehenna/Hell/Lake of Fire"

    Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

    Luke 16:
    23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
    24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
    that I am being pained in this flame
    ".

    The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I never said “God does something” I said God enables us to repent but we must choose to do so if our own free will. Here’s an interesting passage of scripture where Jesus is explaining how to be saved to people so that they may be saved and yet they do not believe. He specifically says “I say these things so that you may believe” and yet they don’t believe. So Jesus is saying they are capable of believing, but they refuse to by their own choice.

    “You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish-the very works that I do-testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
    John 5:33-40 NASB
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,238
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    These would be the ones Jesus describes here.

    But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    John 10:26
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,238
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Right. The vague “God does something”.
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So how does all that line up with Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:31, and Luke 12:10? How can all repent and be saved if not all will enter heaven and not all will be forgiven?
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Jesus’ sheep may be saved. Jesus says these people MAY BE SAVED yet they are not chosen by God because they don’t believe. You see the problem here is JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY SAYING THESE PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED AND AS A RESULT OF THEIR OWN CHOICE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE. This is yet another clear indication that even those who are condemned were capable of being saved and as a result of their choice they condemned themselves.

    “But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Now if Calvin was correct then these people were incapable of being saved because they didn’t believe and were not elected by God. So what Jesus told them would be a lie because He couldn’t say those things so that they may be saved if they were not elected by God. Another clear contradiction to Calvin’s doctrines and another clear indication of a synergistic cooperation with God for salvation.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,238
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    There’s no contradiction in the theology. Your misunderstanding, though, creates a contradiction in scripture. Does that concern you at all? Or is defeating Calvinism your ultimate objective?
     
  13. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Those verses are referring to God sending the gospel to the gentiles. Jesus talks about hell more than any other person in the Bible... And makes it clear that there will be people that don't make it to heaven.
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    There’s only two ways to see this. Either Jesus is speaking to people who are elected by God or He is speaking to people who are not elected by God. Either way it does not add up. If He is speaking to those who are elected by God then they have just thwarted irresistible grace by not believing. If He is speaking to those who are not elected by God then He has just lied to them by saying that He said those things to them so that they may be saved because according to Calvinism no one can be saved who is not elected by God. Either way this passage of scripture refutes Calvin’s doctrines.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,238
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    What if they were not regenerated at that moment, but would be later? I grew up hearing the gospel, but wasn’t saved until my twenties.
     
  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +2,686
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Ok I can see that as a possibility
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    +1,551
    Baptist
    Married
    Let be boil this down into a single question: Why would any man have the desire to seek God if his nature is in opposition to Him?
     
Loading...