God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[Pythons]

Perhaps Mrs. White was referring to Christ removing the risk we were taking, by his actions, and in that context, he took risk away, not that he was taking a risk. Just a thought.

She was clear that Christ "took on" the same risk any human does when accepting a dangerous job...
...Then She continued that concept to the point she said Christ "staked" his own continued eternal life on the conflict.
...It was then printed in SDA denominational publications that IF or Had Christ sinned.
...That God would have eternally annihilated creature christ.

 

[JohnMarsten]

She was clear that Christ "took on" the same risk any human does when accepting a dangerous job...
...Then She continued that concept to the point she said Christ "staked" his own continued eternal life on the conflict.
...It was then printed in SDA denominational publications that IF or Had Christ sinned.
...That God would have eternally annihilated creature christ.

the notion of Christ's possible failure is definitely present in the SDA, no doubt about that...

 

[Stryder06]

The idea that Christ was only sorta kinda fully human is what you admit to when you say He didn't have freedom of choice.

 

[Laureate]

Webster's 3rd DAE

risk -vt. [Fr risquer] 1 to expose to the chance of injury, damage, or loss;

We know that he was physically injured, and because the Word of Eloheem was damaged before during and after his manifestation in the flesh, we can say, he not only took a risk, but also suffered injury, and damage;

Near the end of his ministry he said, while in prayer to the father, of all that you have given me I have lost none, but the son of perdition, and because he is including the many members of his body, we know that he has taken a risk, and suffered loss.

So in every aspect of the word risk, Yeshua suffered consequences; but as it is implied in Isaiah 55 i.e., his word does not return unto him void, but does accomplish that which pleases him, and prosper where ever he sends it; when it comes to accomplishing the will of Eloheem, there is no risk.

 

[Pythons]

The idea that Christ was only sorta kinda fully human is what you admit to when you say He didn't have freedom of choice.

The idea that Christ was only sorta kinda fully God is what you admit to when it's maintained...
....That God can't really do, for sure, what He says He's going to do - by Himself.
....As in God could have ceased to be God and be eternally annihilated.
....Adam & Eve didn't have to sin BTW.

 

[Pythons]

Webster's 3rd DAE

risk -vt. [Fr risquer] 1 to expose to the chance of injury, damage, or loss;

We know that he was physically injured, and because the Word of Eloheem was damaged before during and after his manifestation in the flesh, we can say, he not only took a risk, but also suffered injury, and damage;

Near the end of his ministry he said, while in prayer to the father, of all that you have given me I have lost none, but the son of perdition, and because he is including the many members of his body, we know that he has taken a risk, and suffered loss.

So in every aspect of the word risk, Yeshua suffered consequences; but as it is implied in Isaiah 55 i.e., his word does not return unto him void, but does accomplish that which pleases him, and prosper where ever he sends it; when it comes to accomplishing the will of Eloheem, there is no risk.

That was well stated Laureate.

 

[Stryder06]

The idea that Christ was only sorta kinda fully God is what you admit to when it's maintained...
....That God can't really do, for sure, what He says He's going to do - by Himself.
....As in God could have ceased to be God and be eternally annihilated.

Way to totally flip it Pythons. I've been meaning to ask you this question, which I'm sure you won't answer, but what would have happened if Christ would have sinned?

....Adam & Eve didn't have to sin BTW.

Who said they did?

 

[Pythons]

Way to totally flip it Pythons. I've been meaning to ask you this question, which I'm sure you won't answer, but what would have happened if Christ would have sinned?

It would have simply meant that Jesus was NEVER the Christ in the first place...
...Because God, who knows the end from the beginning - said He wouldn't fail.

The hypothetical you suggest is no different than pondering the outcome...
....If a witch cast a spell on God the Father, turning Him into a frog on Route 66.
....And a Bud Light 18 wheeler doing 80mph ran over God killing Him instantly.

1 Peter 1,10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace TO come in you. Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it FORETOLD those sufferings that are in Christ, AND the glories that should follow: To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look

That Scripture above, combined with over 100 other even more explicit Scriptures...
...Render impossible the possibility that Christ could have sinned.
...Exactly as it would be impossible for a witch to turn God into a frog.

Who said they did?

Because Adam and Eve did sin because they could sin.....
...Is not a valid mechanism to conclude because God became man w/out ceasing to be God.
...That "GOD" could sin.

Is that not the SDA logic chain used to conclude that God could have sinned & lost His salvation?

 

[JohnMarsten]

The hypothetical you suggest is no different than pondering the outcome...
....If a witch cast a spell on God the Father, turning Him into a frog on Route 66.
....And a Bud Light 18 wheeler doing 80mph ran over God killing Him instantly.

you have made my day! that was funny!

 

[Stryder06]

It would have simply meant that Jesus was NEVER the Christ in the first place...
...Because God, who knows the end from the beginning - said He wouldn't fail.

The hypothetical you suggest is no different than pondering the outcome...
....If a witch cast a spell on God the Father, turning Him into a frog on Route 66.
....And a Bud Light 18 wheeler doing 80mph ran over God killing Him instantly.

1 Peter 1,10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace TO come in you. Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it FORETOLD those sufferings that are in Christ, AND the glories that should follow: To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look

That Scripture above, combined with over 100 other even more explicit Scriptures...
...Render impossible the possibility that Christ could have sinned.
...Exactly as it would be impossible for a witch to turn God into a frog.




Because Adam and Eve did sin because they could sin.....
...Is not a valid mechanism to conclude because God became man w/out ceasing to be God.
...That "GOD" could sin.

Is that not the SDA logic chain used to conclude that God could have sinned & lost His salvation?

...SO you say all of that to say that not only Christ, but humanity as a whole doesn't have free will? Gotcha

 

[Pythons]

...SO you say all of that to say that not only Christ, but humanity as a whole doesn't have free will? Gotcha

Christ does not have the free will to deny Himself...
...According to the Sacred Scriptures, E.C.F.'s & Council of Nicaea.

2nd Tim 2,13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he CANNOT deny himself.


According to Ellen White he "could have" denied Himself & had that happened...
...Ellen was quick to state God's great wrath would have come against Christ.
....And God would have eternally annihilated Christ - reducing Christ into an eternal state of non-existence.

 

[Laureate]

Where in scripture does it say you have a free will other than to imagine or believe as you will?

Remember Paul who wished/would do or be, yet he says he can not on his own.

 

[Laureate]

I Samuel 12:15 But if ye WILL not obey the voice of YHWH, but rebel against the commandment of YHWH, then shall the hand of YHWH be against you, as it was against your fathers.

UMMM ssooo, where now is the free will lie, but to obey or disobey, not to have it as you would/will/wish

 

[JohnMarsten]

Where in scripture does it say you have a free will other than to imagine or believe as you will?

Remember Paul who wished/would do or be, yet he says he can not on his own.

Just for the more feebleminded like me, what exactly do you mean?

other than to imagine or believe?

are you implying that our actions are not the outcome of our free will?

 

[Stryder06]

Christ does not have the free will to deny Himself...
...According to the Sacred Scriptures, E.C.F.'s & Council of Nicaea.

2nd Tim 2,13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he CANNOT deny himself.


According to Ellen White he "could have" denied Himself & had that happened...
...Ellen was quick to state God's great wrath would have come against Christ.
....And God would have eternally annihilated Christ - reducing Christ into an eternal state of non-existence.

You can spin it how you want to, but all you're saying is that Jesus didn't have free will like a regular human being. Of course you could think that humans don't have free will so that would make sense.

 

[Laureate]

Just for the more feebleminded like me, what exactly do you mean?

other than to imagine or believe?

Are you implying that our actions are not the outcome of our free will?
[End QUOTE]

I have appreciated many of your posts my brother, and in my opinion you are far from feeble minded:

I can not boast in my knowledge of this matter, neither do I have the luxury to doubt what the Most High has personnallydivulged unto me, even still, if there were not sufficient scriptural support, I would not dare try to profess such a thing.

It's not that our will is not taken into account or used as a basis for our (so called) actions.

The word 'will' in most contexts means, a 'desire/wish', or a 'determination/decision' I know this is difficult for many to believe, but YHWH's will is always being performed here on earth!

We who believe the Word of Eloah are expected to rely on it, so when the scriptures say,

Matthew 18:19
...if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, and it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:21
...If you have faith, and doubt not, it shall be done.

21:22
And all things, whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive. Therefore when we pray...

Matthew 6:9
Our Father who is in heaven, Sacred is your name.

6:10
Your kingdom come. Your -Will- be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

...we are expected to believe his kingdom shall come, and his -Will- shall be performed on earth as it is in heaven. If we do not believe these things, then are we not counted as unbelievers? and if we say we believe, yet have doubt, are we not the 'Ye of little faith' who are working on our convictions?

Yet the so called believer has no shame, pulling every excuse out of the book to justify why their heart is reluctant to to trust and rely on the word of Eloah. The unbeliever says, What! is it the will of YHWH that little children starve and die?

And YHWH says, it is not his will/desire for any of the wicked to die in their sins, but that they repent from their evil ways.

Yet what do the scriptures say, and what do we know of them? A sinner who dies in their sin shall resurrect unto a Crisis, and that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and they will burn, though they do not know or recognize that they are burning.

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The greek word for damnation here is,'Krisis', a crisis [Webster 3rd Dae (3rd entry) defines crisis as...], a time of great danger or trouble, often one which threatens to result in unpleasant consequences.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man sends forth his angels and they gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

13:42
And casts them into a furnace of fire: where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 42:25
Therefore he pours upon them the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it sets them on fire round about, yet they knew/recognize it not; and it burns them yet they lay it not to heart.

Deuteronomy 30:2
...return unto the YHWH your Eloah, and obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all thy soul;

30:3
...then YHWH your Eloah will turn your captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither YHWH your Eloah has scattered thee. And what of those who have died and gone to heaven?

30:4
If any of you are driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from there will YHWH your Eloah gather you, and from there will he fetch you:

30:5
And YHWH will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply you above your fathers.

30:6
And YHWH your Eloah will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the YHWH your Eloah with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.

Psalms 30:3
O YHWH, you have brought up my soul from the grave:

30:4
Sing unto YHWH, O you saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
30:5
For his anger endures but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.

precept upon precept, and line upon line!

Woe unto those who promote denominations which teach the word of Eloah according to the doctrines men.

 

[Pythons]

You can spin it how you want to, but all you're saying is that Jesus didn't have free will like a regular human being. Of course you could think that humans don't have free will so that would make sense.

When Jesus told those who wanted to follow Him to "deny themselves"...
...It doesn't mean that since Jesus was also fully man.
...That Jesus could deny Himself.

However this is what you are forced to believe if you want to justify what Ellen White taught....
...I.E. that Jesus could have sinned and if that happened God would have eternally annihilated Christ.

Matthew 16,24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

2nd Tim 2,13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself

It's just a guess on my part but my guess is the reason Jesus couldn't deny Himself.....
...Was because He ALWAYS did the will of His Father. Eternally.

John 4,33
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, AND to finish his work

Hebrews 10,8
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

John 8,29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do ALWAYS those things that please him

 

[Stryder06]

When Jesus told those who wanted to follow Him to "deny themselves"...
...It doesn't mean that since Jesus was also fully man.
...That Jesus could deny Himself.

Not my will...

However this is what you are forced to believe if you want to justify what Ellen White taught....
...I.E. that Jesus could have sinned and if that happened God would have eternally annihilated Christ.

Spin it however you want. All I'm hearing is "Jesus didn't have free choice". And FYI, bringing up EGW won't change anything for me. I fully believe she was inspired by God. I take what she says as truth first over any number of things your "fathers" have penned.

It's just a guess on my part but my guess is the reason Jesus couldn't deny Himself.....
...Was because He ALWAYS did the will of His Father. Eternally.

Father, let this cup pass from Me...Nevertheless...Not my will...

You do realize that doing the will of the Father doesn't mean He wasn't denying Himself? Wait, probably not since Christ didn't have the freedom to choose.

 

[ChrisCarol]

Spin it however you want. All I'm hearing is "Jesus didn't have free choice". And FYI, bringing up EGW won't change anything for me. I fully believe she was inspired by God. I take what she says as truth first over any number of things your "fathers" have penned.

Deuteronomy 18:

18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Matthew 17: 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.)
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.



Romans 16:17-19

17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.


I listen to The Only Prophet I am sure of.

 

[Stryder06]

Deuteronomy 18:

18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Matthew 17: 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.)
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.



Romans 16:17-19

17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.


I listen to The Only Prophet I am sure of.

Sweet. I listen to Him to.

I really don't get your cryptic responses. Why the use of scripture without explanation?