God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[Pythons]

What gives ultimate power to that Gospel Message...
...Is that Christ actually was ( is ) what He said He was ( is ).
....100% God manifested in human flesh.

Christ couldn't be fully God if Christ could have sinned & subsequently forever ceased to exist....
...After "God" annihilated Him, of course.

How does our belief affect you? Are you here to steer us from our path of destruction, as you see it?

I don't look at it that way E.C.R. - if at the end of the day I'm able to convince you....
...That the Catholic Church isn't going to seek out to torture SDA's ( with the help of all Prot sects ).
....For your going to church and practicing your religion on Saturday.
....If that's all that happens as a result of our conversation that's enough - it's a start.

Do you expend the same effort of research and discussion in the JW, WWCOG or Christadelphian rooms? (I assume there are rooms for each) What is it particularly that fascinates you about Adventists?

They are all "Adventists" E.C.R. - they just are not all "Seventh - day" Adventists....
....And yes, I was actually black-listed by the JW's when I lived in my previous place.
....The K.H. instructed their knockers to avoid my whole block out of fear of running into me.
....& yes, I would invite them in and have a nice discusison with them.

Whenever the enemy of truth (not you necessarily but your church and the one behind it) is focused on us as a denomination, I consider that an affirmation that we are on the right path...

That's ironic - Wayne Bent & Warren Jeffs used that same line of reasoning on their groups....
...And they believed those leaders were right when the authorities came to get them.
...I would re-think your affirmation mechanisms.

 

[Pythons]

If it helps any, concerning the 'one' concept, and how it may pertain to both the Unity and Substance of our heavenly father, consider isaiah 45:6 where our heavenly father says of himself, 'I am YHWH (lit., existence) and there is nothing else beside me': please confir with a lexicon/dictionary this not an interpretation, but a legitamate translation, all opinions aside. Peace!

Of Course Catholicism teaches that the Trinity is unified...
...It is also ONE.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't look at it that way E.C.R. - if at the end of the day I'm able to convince you....
...That the Catholic Church isn't going to seek out to torture SDA's ( with the help of all Prot sects ).
....For your going to church and practicing your religion on Saturday.
....If that's all that happens as a result of our conversation that's enough - it's a start.

Don't hold your breath...

They are all "Adventists" E.C.R. - they just are not all "Seventh - day" Adventists....

Semantics... all Christians are adventists, or at least should be.

That's ironic - Wayne Bent & Warren Jeffs used that same line of reasoning on their groups....
...And they believed those leaders were right when the authorities came to get them.
...I would re-think your affirmation mechanisms.

Prophesy and historical record bears out our contention of the Papacy being the persecutor of the saints in times past and will be the driving force in the future.

 

[Pythons]

At the end of the day one must consider Tall73's Opening Post question....
...QUESTION: God knows the end from the beginning...OR does He?

The Historic Christian Faith, which systematizes Sacred Scripture with Sacred Tradition says God does indeed know...
...AND that God communicated the final outcome long prior to it actually taking place.
...Christ always "knew" what would happen - He just experienced it, for real, in human flesh.

 

[Stryder06]

At the end of the day one must consider Tall73's Opening Post question....
...QUESTION: God knows the end from the beginning...OR does He?

Knowledge does not equal compulsion. God knowing the end from the beginning has no bearing on the actions we take. If it does, than freedom of choice is an illusion, and God has created some people to live forever, and others to burn.

The Historic Christian Faith, which systematizes Sacred Scripture with Sacred Tradition says God does indeed know...
...AND that God communicated the final outcome long prior to it actually taking place.
...Christ always "knew" what would happen - He just experienced it, for real, in human flesh.

No one is saying He would fail. The option to choose to not obey was there for Christ just as it was for Adam. Saying that it wasn't means Christ was simply going through the motions, and was never actually tempted, thus isn't actually associated with us in those trails. He wouldn't know what it meant to overcome since there was nothing to overcome, nor was He actually perfected through tribulation.

Take away choice and you take away everything.

 

[ChrisCarol]

Knowledge does not equal compulsion. God knowing the end from the beginning has no bearing on the actions we take. If it does, than freedom of choice is an illusion, and God has created some people to live forever, and others to burn.



No one is saying He would fail. The option to choose to not obey was there for Christ just as it was for Adam. Saying that it wasn't means Christ was simply going through the motions, and was never actually tempted, thus isn't actually associated with us in those trails. He wouldn't know what it meant to overcome since there was nothing to overcome, nor was He actually perfected through tribulation.

Take away choice and you take away everything.

Do I understand you to say that Jesus had a choice? If that is your thought then what do you do with prophecy of His Birth, death and resurrection?

I think you try to hard to fit all that God does into your realm of understanding. It cannot happen that way. It must happen with faith in what God said He would do.

 

[Pythons]

Knowledge does not equal compulsion. God knowing the end from the beginning has no bearing on the actions we take. If it does, than freedom of choice is an illusion, and God has created some people to live forever, and others to burn.



No one is saying He would fail. The option to choose to not obey was there for Christ just as it was for Adam. Saying that it wasn't means Christ was simply going through the motions, and was never actually tempted, thus isn't actually associated with us in those trails. He wouldn't know what it meant to overcome since there was nothing to overcome, nor was He actually perfected through tribulation.

Take away choice and you take away everything.

Again, this is the same thing as saying "IF" Lucifer didn't have a chance of winning the war in heaven....
...Then the war in heaven was a farce & a mockery & "a big show".
...Or if Jesus couldn't have drowned when He walked on water - then His walking on water.
...Was a farce & mockery.

Saying Christ could have mutated and been annihilated by "God"....
...Would be the same thing as saying when Moses fled Eqypt with Israel.
...That the King of Egypt with his military "could have" anihilated Moses and the Children.

 

[Stryder06]

Again, this is the same thing as saying "IF" Lucifer didn't have a chance of winning the war in heaven....
...Then the war in heaven was a farce & a mockery & "a big show".

Not close. I've actually always wondered that. Been considering if the "war" wasn't so much a war of might, but a war of words. That being said, the appropriate analogy would be that "if" Lucifer didn't have a choice, than how could he really be held accountable for what he did.

...Or if Jesus couldn't have drowned when He walked on water - then His walking on water.
...Was a farce & mockery.

Again, not even close. You're stepping out of the confines of your own logic to try to justify your statement. It's like the "If God can do anything, can He...something He couldn't..."

Saying Christ could have mutated and been annihilated by "God"....
...Would be the same thing as saying when Moses fled Eqypt with Israel.
...That the King of Egypt with his military "could have" anihilated Moses and the Children.

Was Christ Human or not? If He was Human like us, than He had free will. Now the question is, do you believe that all of God's creation has the freedom to choose? If it's yes, than that applies to Christ. If it's no, than we need not discuss this any further.

 

[Pythons]

Semantics... all Christians are adventists, or at least should be.

ALL Adventist Denominations promulgate that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation.....
....ALL Adventist Denominations promulgate that God would have eternally annihilated Christ IF He sinned.
....All Adventist Denominations promulgate that Christ was formally known as Michael the archangel.
....All Adventist Denominations promulgate "soul sleeping".

Have you ever looked at the doctrinal positions of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day?
...If you did and looked at their origins you would confirm they were the sister Churches that opted out of Ellen White.

I'm being serious here - Adventist does not equate to "Advent".

 

[Pythons]

Not close. I've actually always wondered that. Been considering if the "war" wasn't so much a war of might, but a war of words. That being said, the appropriate analogy would be that "if" Lucifer didn't have a choice, than how could he really be held accountable for what he did.

Lucifer wasn't God Stryder - Lucifer was a creation ( creature ).

Again, not even close. You're stepping out of the confines of your own logic to try to justify your statement. It's like the "If God can do anything, can He...something He couldn't..."

No, it's not my logic - Remember I'm saying that God "can't sin" or "fail" to execute His purposes...
...Because Christ is Eternal God everything that applies to the Nature of the Father.
...Also applies to the Son & Holy Spirit.

Was Christ Human or not? If He was Human like us, than He had free will. Now the question is, do you believe that all of God's creation has the freedom to choose? If it's yes, than that applies to Christ. If it's no, than we need not discuss this any further.

He was fully Human and fully God....
...Which is why Scripture called Him "that Holy Thing" when still in the Womb of the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Stryder06]

Lucifer wasn't God Stryder - Lucifer was a creation ( creature ).


No, it's not my logic - Remember I'm saying that God "can't sin" or "fail" to execute His purposes...
...Because Christ is Eternal God everything that applies to the Nature of the Father.
...Also applies to the Son & Holy Spirit.

He was fully Human and fully God....
...Which is why Scripture called Him "that Holy Thing" when still in the Womb of the Blessed Virgin.

Why is this so hard to establish? Either Christ as man, had the freedom of choice, or He didn't.

And I don't want you to take this question as anything more than a question: We know that God doesn't sin. Is it that God can't sin, or that He simply does not sin?

This is a question I've considered for a good part of my life. What are your thoughts?

 

[Pythons]

Why is this so hard to establish? Either Christ as man, had the freedom of choice, or He didn't.

He didn't have the freedom of choice to "deny Himself" or cease being God...
...It isn't hard to establish at all.

And I don't want you to take this question as anything more than a question: We know that God doesn't sin. Is it that God can't sin, or that He simply does not sin?

He actually can't sin & because of that He wouldn't sin.

This is a question I've considered for a good part of my life. What are your thoughts?

Do SDA's go through a Catechism of sorts when they are brought up in the SDA Church?
...This is covered immediately in the Trinity Doctrine.

 

[Stryder06]

He didn't have the freedom of choice to "deny Himself" or cease being God...
...It isn't hard to establish at all.

He was Human or He wasn't.

He actually can't sin & because of that He wouldn't sin.

Is it that He can't because He chooses not to, or that He can't because He is incapable of it? If it's the later, than that means that Christ was never tempted.

Do SDA's go through a Catechism of sorts when they are brought up in the SDA Church?
...This is covered immediately in the Trinity Doctrine.

We learn doctrine. Doesn't mean we aren't free to ask questions or think for ourselves. I know that God cannot sin because it is not in His nature. God is love and that is the complete opposite of the selfish nature that forms the basis for all sin. But when I say cannot, I do not personally believe that is based on the fact that it is impossible by compulsion, but rather it is impossible because of who He is.

 

[Pythons]

He was Human or He wasn't.

He was fully human Stryder...
...He ( the actual Person ) was fully God Stryder.

Is it that He can't because He chooses not to, or that He can't because He is incapable of it? If it's the later, than that means that Christ was never tempted.

He was NEVER tempted "within Himself" just like you are NOT tempted....
...To do a sin that, for whatever reason, repulses you.

We learn doctrine. Doesn't mean we aren't free to ask questions or think for ourselves.

We are taught Doctrine from the original deposit of Faith & that Doctrine develops...
...It never "mutates".

I know that God cannot sin because it is not in His nature. God is love and that is the complete opposite of the selfish nature that forms the basis for all sin. But when I say cannot, I do not personally believe that is based on the fact that it is impossible by compulsion, but rather it is impossible because of who He is.

Exactly, it's NOT in God's nature to sin therefore God CANNOT sin....
....Christ was what Manifest?

 

[Stryder06]

He was fully human Stryder...
...He ( the actual Person ) was fully God Stryder.

What do you mean by "the actual Person"?

He was NEVER tempted "within Himself" just like you are NOT tempted....
...To do a sin that, for whatever reason, repulses you.

All sin should repulse us. What repulses me, might not repulse someone else. So, with this being the case, how was Christ tempted if He wasn't tempted "within" Himself?

We are taught Doctrine from the original deposit of Faith & that Doctrine develops...
...It never "mutates".

A change is a change. Develop it, mutate it, it's whatever.

Exactly, it's NOT in God's nature to sin therefore God CANNOT sin....
....Christ was what Manifest?

Christ became Man however. And man can sin. So....

 

[Pythons]

What do you mean by "the actual Person"?

The actual Person ( Jesus Christ ) was both fully God & Human...
...The Divine Substance & the Human Nature perfectly united.
...The two natures were NOT mixed or "blended".

All sin should repulse us.

It should, you're right Stryder but the fact is that all sin doesn't...
...You would have some personal sins that would be repulsive to me.
...And I would have some personal sins that would repulse you.
...The fact remains that both us have sins we must RESIST the pull of.

What repulses me, might not repulse someone else. So, with this being the case, how was Christ tempted if He wasn't tempted "within" Himself?

When somone comes up to offer ( tempt ) you IN a sin that REPULSES you and you don't have to resist YOUR urge for THAT sin you can simply extend that reality to Christ each and every time.

True, Christ was indeed TEMPTED by or of the Devil & even everyday people and situations....
...But He was never tempted "within Himself" He never yearned or longed for sin.

A change is a change. Develop it, mutate it, it's whatever.


Christ became Man however. And man can sin. So....

Example of Mutation in this context:

Moses tells the children at the mountain they are NOT to worship any golden calfs...
...A few months later Moses tells the children to worship a golden calf.
...THAT is a mutation of Doctrine.

Such as claiming that Jesus isn't God Almighty....
...Then later claiming Jesus is indeed God Almighty.

 

[Stryder06]

The actual Person ( Jesus Christ ) was both fully God & Human...
...The Divine Substance & the Human Nature perfectly united.
...The two natures were NOT mixed or "blended".

Well you already know how I feel about your "substance" teaching

It should, you're right Stryder but the fact is that all sin doesn't...
...You would have some personal sins that would be repulsive to me.
...And I would have some personal sins that would repulse you.
...The fact remains that both us have sins we must RESIST the pull of.

Right. But back to my point; if Christ wasn't able to sin period, than He wasn't tempted, period. Temptation is the desire to do something contrary to God's will. If I cannot go contrary to the will of God, than I cannot be tempted. Annoyed? Yes. Tempted? No.

When somone comes up to offer ( tempt ) you IN a sin that REPULSES you and you don't have to resist YOUR urge for THAT sin you can simply extend that reality to Christ each and every time.

True, Christ was indeed TEMPTED by or of the Devil & even everyday people and situations....
...But He was never tempted "within Himself" He never yearned or longed for sin.

Ok, I'm following you now. I was never saying that Christ had a yearning to sin. My point is that Christ was just like Adam. Adam had no yearning for sin. He simply made a choice...a poor choice, but a choice nevertheless. The same was true of Christ. It wasn't that He had a yearning to do sin, but that He had a choice to either obey God, or disobey. The choice for Christ was obvious, but it was still a choice.

Example of Mutation in this context:

Moses tells the children at the mountain they are NOT to worship any golden calfs...
...A few months later Moses tells the children to worship a golden calf.
...THAT is a mutation of Doctrine.

Such as claiming that Jesus isn't God Almighty....
...Then later claiming Jesus is indeed God Almighty.

I don't see that as "mutation". I see that as getting it right.

 

[Pythons]

Well you already know how I feel about your "substance" teaching

In what way do you believe God the Father is "God" differently than Christ?

Right. But back to my point; if Christ wasn't able to sin period, than He wasn't tempted, period. Temptation is the desire to do something contrary to God's will. If I cannot go contrary to the will of God, than I cannot be tempted. Annoyed? Yes. Tempted? No.

If someone comes up and asks you to participate in something that is sin then THAT person tempted you...
...Just because that particular sin wasn't your "sin" and you were not interested it doesn't mean you weren't tempted.
...It just means that you didn't have to resist your own urge to follow through with completing the sin.

If you find yourself pulled toward a particular sin so that you resist YOUR temptation...
...That is a world of difference between your being tempted by someone to do something you are repulsed by.
....Or "annoyed" as you put it.

Ok, I'm following you now. I was never saying that Christ had a yearning to sin. My point is that Christ was just like Adam. Adam had no yearning for sin.

Eve and Adam ate the fruit ( or did whatever it was they did ) because they wanted more than God gave them....
...Even though God had already gave them everything.
...You can bet they yearned or wanted something.

He simply made a choice...a poor choice, but a choice nevertheless. The same was true of Christ. It wasn't that He had a yearning to do sin, but that He had a choice to either obey God, or disobey. The choice for Christ was obvious, but it was still a choice.

Like the Bible has clearly said so many times Stryder...
...God cannot deny Himself, God can't sin, God can't fail to execuste His purpose.

I don't see that as "mutation". I see that as getting it right.

I have an idea that I'm working on for an illustration....
...I'll try to post it up in a new question / discussion thread here this weekend.
....I believe I've figured out exactly where the difference in views in coming from.

 

[Stryder06]

In what way do you believe God the Father is "God" differently than Christ?

There is no difference. Doesn't mean they share a "substance".

If someone comes up and asks you to participate in something that is sin then THAT person tempted you...
...Just because that particular sin wasn't your "sin" and you were not interested it doesn't mean you weren't tempted.
...It just means that you didn't have to resist your own urge to follow through with completing the sin.

If you find yourself pulled toward a particular sin so that you resist YOUR temptation...
...That is a world of difference between your being tempted by someone to do something you are repulsed by.
....Or "annoyed" as you put it.

I guess we look at temptation differently

Eve and Adam ate the fruit ( or did whatever it was they did ) because they wanted more than God gave them....
...Even though God had already gave them everything.
...You can bet they yearned or wanted something.

You're making assumptions about what they were and weren't yearning for.

Like the Bible has clearly said so many times Stryder...
...God cannot deny Himself, God can't sin, God can't fail to execuste His purpose.

Doesn't mean there isn't a choice.

I have an idea that I'm working on for an illustration....
...I'll try to post it up in a new question / discussion thread here this weekend.
....I believe I've figured out exactly where the difference in views in coming from.

I await your return.

 

[Pythons]

There is no difference. Doesn't mean they share a "substance".

Are you saying that SDA's believe in 2 or 3 God's?
...If God isn't "ONE" "in Substance" how would God be one?
...Aside from your husband and wife concept?

I guess we look at temptation differently

That's an understatement if there ever was one...
...Could God the Father sucumb to temptation to sin and loose His Eternal Salvation in your view?
...If God the Father sinned and lost His salvation would / could Christ annihilate God the Father?

I ask the above simply because the SDA church has officially stated that if Christ sinned....
...Then "God" would have annihilated Christ and He would have eternally ceased to exist.
...Therefore I'm asking you if Christ would have the ability or power to annihilate "God".
...If God "could" and "did" sin.

That seems to be a direct way to enter discovery as to the Substance question I have for Seventh day Adventists.

You're making assumptions about what they were and weren't yearning for.

"A man" is ONLY tempted when He is drawn of his OWN lust....
...According to Scripture.

Therefore a man can be tempted just like Christ was and while tempted by another NOT be tempted within himself....
...There is zero assumptions here - it's fundamental fact.

Doesn't mean there isn't a choice.



I await your return.

God does not have a choice to not be God....
..& I await yours.