God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[Stryder06]

Are you saying that SDA's believe in 2 or 3 God's?
...If God isn't "ONE" "in Substance" how would God be one?
...Aside from your husband and wife concept?

Nope. We believe in One God. You have to use Substance to make it work, since your concept of One revolves around a singularity. God speaks of Man and His wife being one. He talks of the people at Babel being one. Christ says that He and the Disciples were one, etc.

That's an understatement if there ever was one...
...Could God the Father sucumb to temptation to sin and loose His Eternal Salvation in your view?
...If God the Father sinned and lost His salvation would / could Christ annihilate God the Father?

I ask the above simply because the SDA church has officially stated that if Christ sinned....
...Then "God" would have annihilated Christ and He would have eternally ceased to exist.
...Therefore I'm asking you if Christ would have the ability or power to annihilate "God".
...If God "could" and "did" sin.

The universe might implode. Who knows Good news is that it didn't happen.

That seems to be a direct way to enter discovery as to the Substance question I have for Seventh day Adventists.

Not at all.

"A man" is ONLY tempted when He is drawn of his OWN lust....
...According to Scripture.

Provide scripture please.

Therefore a man can be tempted just like Christ was and while tempted by another NOT be tempted within himself....
...There is zero assumptions here - it's fundamental fact.

It's not a fundamental fact. Temptation is the act of trying to lead someone into sin. Adam was sinless when He was created. He had no lusts within himself, yet he sinned. Why? Because he made a choice.

God does not have a choice to not be God....
..& I await yours.

You're eliminating the humanity that Christ possessed. He was totally Human. Thus He had the choice to do what was right, or do what was wrong. If Christ couldn't choose than He isn't affiliated with my pain in regards to resisting temptation. He wouldn't understand the same way I do. It's like someone who's never lost a child to death, trying to comfort someone who has by saying "I understand". No..you don't. That person might be able to imagine the pain of losing a child, but unless they've actually lost a child, than their words are just that.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Christ says that He and the Disciples were one, etc.

Maybe the disciples got sucked into the "substance" like some body snatchers type phenomenom...

 

[Stryder06]

Maybe the disciples got sucked into the "substance" like some body snatchers type phenomenom...

That made my day

 

[Lysimachus]

Too much EGW bashing on your part tall73. We already know you disagree with her. We already have shown that we disagree with your positions of her, yet we already know how you interpret her, and we have already shown that we do not take her words in the same way you are digesting them.

Therefore, why keep going on and on about it? There is a world to save, but you would rather vest that interest in bashing Ellen White?

Why not go start your own church and build it up by getting people from the world converted?

 

[Lysimachus]

Tall,

You are attempting to show EGW's writings say God does not know the end from the beginning.

I put a couple of key words (God knows end) in the White Estate search engine. It returned 83 matches. Here are some examples that contradict what you said.

'God knows the end from the beginning. He is acquainted with the hearts of all human beings. He reads every secret of the soul. He knows whether those for whom prayer is offered would be able to endure the trials that would come upon them should they live.' ---The Ministry of Health and Healing, p. 125.2

'The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning.... Therefore redemption was not an afterthought ... but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created.' --Gods Amazing Grace, p. 129.2

But does not God know? Is there not knowledge with the Most High? Our God sees our hearts in a different light from that in which we see them. He is acquainted with our secret thoughts. He searches into the hidden recesses of our nature. He sends answers to our prayers, when we are filled with uneasiness and distress. He gives ear to our inward groanings, and reveals to us the plague spots in our characters, that we may overcome defects, instead of being overcome by them. When unknown chapters in regard to ourselves are opened before us, the test and the trial come; and the question is, whether or not we will accept the reproof and the counsel of God. Will we cling to our own ideas and plans, and value ourselves more highly than we ought? God knows better than we do what is good for his children; and if they could see their real necessity as he does, they would say that the Lord had dealt most wisely with them. The ways of the Lord are obscure to him who desires to see things in a pleasing light to himself. God can discern the end of his purpose from the beginning; but because the Lord’s ways are not man’s ways, they appear dark, severe, and painful to our human natures. But God’s ways are ways of mercy, and their end is salvation and blessedness. -- RH July 3, 1888, par. 6

Peter saw the error into which he had fallen, and immediately set about repairing the evil that had been wrought, so far as was in his power. God, who knows the end from the beginning, permitted Peter to reveal this weakness of character in order that the tried apostle might see that there was nothing in himself whereof he might boast. Even the best of men, if left to themselves, will err in judgment. God also saw that in time to come some would be so deluded as to claim for Peter and his pretended successors the exalted prerogatives that belong to God alone. --The Acts of the Apostles, p. 198.1

You try to mud the water and misinterpret what she wrote. You are saying if you knew the result, there would be no risk. But God doesn't look at the time the way you do because He is not confined to the time dimension as you and I are and He does not perceive things the way a finite man does.

And in plain language, her writings are in harmony with the bible on this subject.

This post is devistating to our critics.

Ellen White makes "apparent contradictions" with herself and the Bible just like the Bible itself makes "apparent contradictions" with itself.

This settles all our arguments. Who would have known it was this easy?

 

[Lysimachus]

How about a follow through with that question then....
...Perhaps you could help me understand the real meaning.

A) It appears that SDA's admit that God indeed knows the end from the beginning.

B) It appears that SDA's admit that God, through the Prophets was explicit that God would provide Salvation.

C) It appears that SDA's admit that Jesus spoke of Himself as already having Salvation within Himself.

If God knows the end from the beginning AND communicated one part of that knowledge to us through the explicit teachings of the Bible then the only question that remains is one of interpretation.

Given that Ellen White interpreted the Bible to teach that Jesus actually could have lost His salvation and eternally ceased to exist - the question naturally becomes what authority or ability Ellen White had so that her interpretation outweighs everyone else who has read the Bible and reached the clear understanding that Christ was eternally the Christ and as such could do nothing at all but suffer and die for humanity.

And it is absolutely unequivocally clear that Ellen White does not contradict A-C above. Even though it might "appear" that way.

Just like it "appears" that the Bible also has numerous contradictions with itself.

Dat's just how it is =]

 

[Pythons]

Nope. We believe in One God. You have to use Substance to make it work, since your concept of One revolves around a singularity. God speaks of Man and His wife being one. He talks of the people at Babel being one. Christ says that He and the Disciples were one, etc.

Without that singularity you have what you have above described...
...Three god's.


Athanasian Creed
we worship one God in Trinity, Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all ONE: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal....So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.”

The universe might implode. Who knows Good news is that it didn't happen.

Unfortunately it was detailed on exactly what would happen....
...If Christ was eternally extinguished by "God".

Longacre
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, [ notice where the comma is ] the Father", would STILL have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth.

Provide scripture please.

James 1,13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God CANNOT be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, AND ENTICED. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1) to bait, CATCH by a bait
2) metaph. to beguile by blandishments, allure, entice, deceive

"God" CANNOT be tempted with evil, period - according to the Bible...
...Notice the text says "God cannot be tempted with evil".
...This means that Lucifer or men indeed attempt to tempt God.
...But God is not able to be ENTICED or baited to bit like a catfish nabs a stink bait.

Also please note the text describes HOW & WHEN "a man" is tempted....
...In fact the text says ALL men are tempted ( within themselves ).
...When THEY are drawn away of their OWN individual lust for the sin being offered.


It's not a fundamental fact. Temptation is the act of trying to lead someone into sin. Adam was sinless when He was created. He had no lusts within himself, yet he sinned. Why? Because he made a choice.

You're eliminating the humanity that Christ possessed. He was totally Human.

You keep forgetting THAT Christ was ALSO totally "God"...
...Remember Stryder, God became Man WITHOUT ceasing to be "God".

Thus He had the choice to do what was right, or do what was wrong.

Hmmm, would you agree that the Prophets said He would ONLY do right...
...That the ONLY outcome would be that God would save us.
...That Christ Jesus was the purpose of God and God always executes His purpose.
...Would you agree that the Bible explicitly says that MANY times long prior to the Incarnation?

If you would like "Scripture Please" - I'm very happy to say I've a boat load for you.

If Christ couldn't choose than He isn't affiliated with my pain in regards to resisting temptation.

Does a medical Doctor need to contract aids to treat someone with aids Stryder?
...This is no different than saying if Christ couldn't have sunk and drowned when He walked on water.
...Then WHAT really was the point of Him walking on water?

I would say it was simply another PROOF that Christ was God...
...Just like the proof that God couldn't be tempted so the master tempter came.
...And just like walking on water Christ passed the test.
...Because the Prophets long prior to Jesus' birth said God would NOT fail, God would not sin, etc.






He wouldn't understand the same way I do. It's like someone who's never lost a child to death, trying to comfort someone who has by saying "I understand". No..you don't. That person might be able to imagine the pain of losing a child, but unless they've actually lost a child, than their words are just that.[/quote]

 

[Lysimachus]

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Hebrews 4:15. Matthew 4:7.

Case closed.

 

[Pythons]

And it is absolutely unequivocally clear that Ellen White does not contradict A-C above. Even though it might "appear" that way.

Just like it "appears" that the Bible also has numerous contradictions with itself.

Dat's just how it is =]

A)
All heaven is watching the controversy.... Here upon the earth Satan stirs up the enmity that is in the human mind to resist the salvation that has been brought to them at such an infinite cost. He [Christ] was the light of the world, and yet the world knew Him not. He created the world, and yet the world would not acknowledge Him. But when His life was sought for, the Majesty of heaven had to go from place to place; heaven marked this. And He was despised and rejected; He was mocked at, reviled; but when He was reviled, He reviled not again. But Satan did not stop his persecutions until Christ hung upon the cross of Calvary. All heaven, and all the worlds God had created, were watching the controversy; WOULD Christ carry out the plan He had undertaken to lift lost souls from the pit of sin? Ellen White, CT 288

Looks like Ellen contradicted "A" there & the above concept can be duplicated over & over again...
...And as I've already demonstrated the same goes for "B" & "C".

 

[Laureate]

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Hebrews 4:15. Matthew 4:7.

Case closed.

I do believe the context of the word tempeted here refers to, being put to the test;

for a man is tempted when he is drawn by his own lust.

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

and to lust in your heart is to commit sin

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Well either he sinned or he didn't, for if he did not sin, then there was no lust, and if there was no lust, then their was no temptation:

Hence he came to encounter what every man encounters, not to be in subjection to what every man is in subjection to; he was put to the test, not tested:

He could see first hand what was tempting every man, yet he did not desire to sin, therefore there was no lust, therefore no temptation.

We call it precept upon precept, and line upon line, no disrespect to Mrs. White.

 

[Stryder06]

Without that singularity you have what you have above described...
...Three god's.


Athanasian Creed
we worship one God in Trinity, Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all ONE: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal....So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.”

You know I don't give much heed to "Creeds" that I believe are contrary to the word of God. I don't read about a substance in scripture. You do realize that even with your substance idea you still get three though right? I can take a tree and make three chairs from it. All the chairs share the same "substance" but there's still three separate chairs.

Unfortunately it was detailed on exactly what would happen....
...If Christ was eternally extinguished by "God".

That's all fine and good but what that man says doesn't matter to you since you don't think Christ had a choice.

James 1,13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God CANNOT be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, AND ENTICED. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

You do realize this text is talking about the Father right?

"God" CANNOT be tempted with evil, period - according to the Bible...
...Notice the text says "God cannot be tempted with evil".
...This means that Lucifer or men indeed attempt to tempt God.
...But God is not able to be ENTICED or baited to bit like a catfish nabs a stink bait.

Also please note the text describes HOW & WHEN "a man" is tempted....
...In fact the text says ALL men are tempted ( within themselves ).
...When THEY are drawn away of their OWN individual lust for the sin being offered.

Right. I knew the text you were referring to. Problem is that you're omitting the human nature that Christ took on. He subjected Himself to the same trials we are subjected to. Just like Adam, Christ, while sinless had the choice to either obey the Father or not.

It's not a fundamental fact. Temptation is the act of trying to lead someone into sin. Adam was sinless when He was created. He had no lusts within himself, yet he sinned. Why? Because he made a choice.

EXACTLY! That's all I'm trying to say. Christ had the option to choose just like Adam did. Nothing more and nothing less.

You keep forgetting THAT Christ was ALSO totally "God"...
...Remember Stryder, God became Man WITHOUT ceasing to be "God".

I'm not forgetting that at all. Which really just goes to show how much we won't ever know about this until we get to heaven. This is a mystery.

Hmmm, would you agree that the Prophets said He would ONLY do right...
...That the ONLY outcome would be that God would save us.
...That Christ Jesus was the purpose of God and God always executes His purpose.
...Would you agree that the Bible explicitly says that MANY times long prior to the Incarnation?

If you would like "Scripture Please" - I'm very happy to say I've a boat load for you.

I know what the bible says, and I have no issue agreeing with this. The point however is not that the prophets were seeing something set in stone, but seeing the outcome of His struggle, and His triumph.

Does a medical Doctor need to contract aids to treat someone with aids Stryder?
...This is no different than saying if Christ couldn't have sunk and drowned when He walked on water.
...Then WHAT really was the point of Him walking on water?

You completely missed the point. The doctor could treat the symptom, but he wouldn't be able to empathize with the patient. Christ is able to do that with us as scripture says.

I would say it was simply another PROOF that Christ was God...
...Just like the proof that God couldn't be tempted so the master tempter came.
...And just like walking on water Christ passed the test.
...Because the Prophets long prior to Jesus' birth said God would NOT fail, God would not sin, etc.

I'm not sure what the walking on water has to do with anything. Peter walked on water. Was He God? You keep forgetting that Christ didn't do anything in His own power, but through the power of the Spirit. EVERYTHING Christ did, we could do if we had faith in God the way He did. Walking on water was for the benefit of the disciples. If we walked on water today, it would be to show off.





He wouldn't understand the same way I do. It's like someone who's never lost a child to death, trying to comfort someone who has by saying "I understand". No..you don't. That person might be able to imagine the pain of losing a child, but unless they've actually lost a child, than their words are just that.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Pythons]

I rest my case Stryder...
..You've said enough about this, really.

 

[Stryder06]

I rest my case Stryder...
..You've said enough about this, really.

Court is adjourned