God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

[JohnMarsten]

The danger in the orignal sin theory is that we can not attain perfection of character through Christs righteousness... it lends itself to the saved in sin philosophy rather than saved from sin.

Question:

Is it we who can attain perfection of character?

Or is it the Holy Spirit who accomplishes it?

 

[Pythons]

I remember hearing something similar. Either way, if we go off of the genealogy presented, Joseph is the one who's ancestry is traced, not Mary's

Not.

Jer 22,30
Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

&

Number 27,8
And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter


Mary married within her OWN tribe of Judah ( Genesis 49: 8-13 )....
....& the curse prevents the line going back through Joseph.
....I went through this before with RND.

 

[Stryder06]

Not.

Jer 22,30
Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

&

Number 27,8
And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter


Mary married within her OWN tribe of Judah ( Genesis 49: 8-13 )....
....& the curse prevents the line going back through Joseph.
....I went through this before with RND.

Python's it's whatever. This is less of an issue than your issue with Mary being sinless.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Python's it's whatever. This is less of an issue than your issue with Mary being sinless.

Mary was sinless?

 

[Stryder06]

Mary was sinless?

That's what Catholic's teach

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Question:

Is it we who can attain perfection of character?

Or is it the Holy Spirit who accomplishes it?

It is our cooperation with the divine that accomplishes it.

 

[JohnMarsten]

That's what Catholic's teach

hmm... didnt know that, I heard that when they pray to her they say she is the eternal virgin!

 

[Stryder06]

hmm... didnt know that, I heard that when they pray to her they say she is the eternal virgin!

That too, but they also teach that God made protected Mary from original sin, so she was sinless, making her the perfect vessel to carry Christ.

 

[Pythons]

It is our cooperation with the divine that accomplishes it.

Correct - see, we can agree on some things.

 

[Adventtruth]

One of the amazing attributes of God that He claims as His alone is knowing the end from the beginning.


Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose


Yet several times when describing the putting into place the plan of salvation Ellen White writes that Jesus was "risking" eternal loss, and staking His own "eternal existence."


Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}




Remember that Christ risked all; tempted like as we are, he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}



Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life’s peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}


Christ did indeed leave His heavenly home. Christ did indeed take on the likeness of man, and had to be born a baby, and grow in stature with God and man.

Christ was indeed tempted as the Scriptures state. Christ did indeed have to endure terrible pain and terrible treatment, none of which He deserved, and is rightly praised for this.

But was there a RISK of FAILURE in the plan?

Risk of failure is something we face as humans because we do not know the future. It could go either way. This was not at all the case with God and with the plan of salvation.

Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. There was a one hundred percent chance of Jesus dying for us. There was a zero percent chance of Christ failing and losing His own eternal existence.

Ellen White states

He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss.

So here she has the pre-incarnate Christ taking on the notion of risk, as though the plan of salvation might just not work.

Did God know or didn't He?


Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose"

I believe Mrs White was in error when she wrote about risk. But your question would be better if asked of God and literal Israel. After all they where to bring the heathens the good news of the One true God....be a light to the blind. But they failed in their mission.

So did God know they would fail....was there a risk they would?....If we understand Gods promises to Abraham...there was no Risk at all....God had a plain all along......to save the world through Israel in the coming of Messiah! There was never a RISK!

AT

 

[Pythons]

The Christology of Adventism within the time hack of Ellen White's life...
...Required a mutation capable Christ - one that could eternally cease to exist.
...Therefore prophetic utterances were given "proving" such a Christ.

This whole thing reminds me of the t.v. series "Supernatural"...
...A show that profiles a battle between demons and angels on earth.
...Where the outcome is UNCERTAIN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3cAwXMpBvU

 

[Laureate]

I believe Mrs White was in error when she wrote about risk. But your question would be better if asked of God and literal Israel. After all they where to bring the heathens the good news of the One true God....be a light to the blind. But they failed in their mission.

So did God know they would fail....was there a risk they would?....If we understand Gods promises to Abraham...there was no Risk at all....God had a plain all along......to save the world through Israel in the coming of Messiah! There was never a RISK!

AT

If Ishrael failed, then Aloah failed. Did not Ishrael bring us Yehudah, and by Yehudah, did not Yehshuah come, and what small consolation is the precious scriptures that was preserved by them, I'm so greatful to have received both.

Still, there was no risk, but in the imaginations of men, which as promised from on high, qualified them to be handed over to their delusions, WITH comviction. They might as well have been hypnotized to believe a lie. Let them be a testimony, and warning for all.

 

[Adventtruth]

If Ishrael failed, then Aloah failed. Did not Ishrael bring us Yehudah, and by Yehudah, did not Yehshuah come, and what small consolation is the precious scriptures that was preserved by them, I'm so greatful to have received both.

Still, there was no risk, but in the imaginations of men, which as promised from on high, qualified them to be handed over to their delusions, WITH comviction. They might as well have been hypnotized to believe a lie. Let them be a testimony, and warning for all.

Israel as a nation of people failed in her mission....do you deny this?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Israel as a nation of people failed in her mission....do you deny this?

this thing is a mystery to me as I believe that there was a hardening of the heart send down on them... so in a way, of course, they failed, but did Jesus had to die on the cross in order to save us?

 

[Laureate]

this thing is a mystery to me as I believe that there was a hardening of the heart send down on them... so in a way, of course, they failed, but did Jesus had to die on the cross in order to save us?

There are only four ways for a man to come in and go out.

One man came into the world perfect, and departed imperfect [Adam]


All men from Adam unto the Messiah came into the world imperfect and left imperfect.


Yehshuah came into the world perfect and left perfect, thus providing a way for...


those who enter the world imperfect, to atttain unto perfection that they need not, to go in and out of the temple anymore.


Be you perfect as your father in heaven...

 

[Laureate]

Israel as a nation of people failed in her mission....do you deny this?

I suppose I should 1st ask if Israel was a prophet?

if you answer yes!

then know, his words and actions are not his own!

His sin could only exist in the imagination of his heart, not in word or deed.

What do you perceive the mission of Israel was?

Did I miss a passage that would indicate they failed as a nation?

Because Yehshua is a descendant of Ishrael, his success is to be shared with all his brethren.

When the member of a team scores a winning point, it is the entire team that wins, not just the most valuable player, but the guy who threw two interseptions in the first half of the game, and the guy who fumbled the ball in the third quarter.

In essence the failures of Ishrael do not annual the success of Ishrael.

The sacred texts, and Yeshua, that is what Ishrael ushered into the world, mission accomplished.

 

[Adventtruth]

From my readings of the bible, it was God single plain from the beginning.

 

[Adventtruth]

I suppose I should 1st ask if Israel was a prophet?

if you answer yes!

then know, his words and actions are not his own!

His sin could only exist in the imagination of his heart, not in word or deed.

Isreal...a nation of people. That same nation of people whom God led out of Egypt.

What do you perceive the mission of Israel was?

Did I miss a passage that would indicate they failed as a nation?

Israels misson was to be a light to the blind. Their mission was to uphold the covenant and be a representative people of God to the heathen nations. They failed and thus suffered the curse and went into bondage.

Because Yehshua is a descendant of Ishrael, his success is to be shared with all his brethren.

When the member of a team scores a winning point, it is the entire team that wins, not just the most valuable player, but the guy who threw two interseptions in the first half of the game, and the guy who fumbled the ball in the third quarter.

In essence the failures of Ishrael do not annual the success of Ishrael.

The sacred texts, and Yeshua, that is what Ishrael ushered into the world, mission accomplished.

Messiah was the ONE True Israel who was able to bring light to blind.. the heathen nations....creating one new people of God.

 

[Laureate]

Perhaps Mrs. White was referring to Christ removing the risk we were taking, by his actions, and in that context, he took risk away, not that he was taking a risk. Just a thought.

 

[David Conklin]

Back to the title: in working on DA I was struck how everything seemed to be timed just right so that when Christ came by they were ready to hear Him or meet Him.