God Created Evil

[doughtz]

God has created beings who have the capacity for evil. Satan was capable of doing evil, otherwise he would not have done it; Adam and Eve were capable of sin, or they would not have sinned.

It is obvious that God created beings that were capable of evil, but when God created them, they were good, and there was no evil in them. But they chose evil and they become evil. But still, God stands above and beyond and over and behind all this activity.

Now let's look at the text in Isaiah 45. The word 'evil' in OT has 7 different nuances. Usually when we use the word evil, we are talking about moral evil - sin. But the scripture also speaks of evil in other categories as well. It speaks of natural disasters such as sickness, floods, earthquakes, which indicate physical evil. When an earthquake happens, we use the word 'bad' or 'evil' with respect to such calamity. Anything that is bad to the Hebrew can be called 'evil'. That is what we have here in Isaiah 45:7.

So this verse means 'I make well-being and I create calamity' something that the ESV Bible translates accurately. The evil in Isaiah 45:7 is not moral evil, but it is that evil that is in direct contrast to well being, peace or prosperity. So what Isaiah is saying here as a spokesman for God is that God brings blessings and He brings curse. He brings good times, He brings bad times. He brings peace, He also brings conflict. He brings well-being, He brings calamity.

It's not that text is saying that God does moral evil or creates moral evil. It is saying however, that God is ultimately the author of all that comes to pass. What this passage is communicating is sovereignty of God over all creation. He will bring harvest, but He will also bring famine. Hope this helps.

An important distinction, but why do you come to the conclusion that calamity is correct and evil is wrong? Because of the way other translations use calamity instead of evil? Or is there more study?

 

[doughtz]

God is not identical with the Bible. That's your primary error. Do you worship the Bible? Did the Bible create you? Don't mistake the revelation for the One being revealed, and you won't embrace absurdities.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[public hermit]

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The incarnate Word is not identical to the written word. Ask yourself, do the Bible and Jesus Christ share exactly all the same properties? No, of course, they don't. You can't buy Jesus next to the Harlequin novels in Walmart, but you can buy a Bible there. The Bible did not die and rise again for us, but Jesus Christ did. They are two very different things. One is a witness to Christ, and the other is Christ. As Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day: "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39-40. Jesus is making a clear distinction, and so should we.

 

[PastorKeith]

Why would God have created us otherwise?

For His glory, as the Bible states.

 

[PastorKeith]

If that's the case, you are inferring that teaching pastors at thousands of churches all don't read their bibles. Including ones that graduate from seminary schools with M. Divs.

It's not simply people are not reading their bibles. It is definitely that not everything is black and white and cut and dry in the bible. There are some things not mentioned or mentioned without background knowledge.

I was using hyperbole when I said ALL ....I am referring to a lot of people, let's just say in the United States, that claim to be Christians. Not teachers and Pastors and Ministers.... and not even necessarily regular church goers. I just read a PEW Research poll, asking how often Christians read their Bibles..... 39% said Seldom or Never.... that is over 1/3... and incredibly sad.

Not surprisingly the higher the income level, the less people read the Bible.

Currently there are about 210 Million Christians in the United States (This includes Catholics and Protestants) which means 81 Million American Christians seldom or never read their Bibles.

 

[doughtz]

The incarnate Word is not identical to the written word. Ask yourself, do the Bible and Jesus Christ share exactly all the same properties? No, of course, they don't. You can't buy Jesus next to the Harlequin novels in Walmart, but you can buy a Bible there. The Bible did not die and rise again for us, but Jesus Christ did. They are two very different things. One is a witness to Christ, and the other is Christ. As Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day: "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39-40. Jesus is making a clear distinction, and so should we.

Sure not literally a physical bible. But the words in the bible. They are the word of God inspired by Him.

It seems like your counter-argument I quoted in my last reply was that just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean that it is accurate? Because I was replying to your response to "There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God?"

You make it seem like just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean it is an accurate reporting.

Am I interpreting what you said incorrectly?

 

[doughtz]

I was using hyperbole when I said ALL ....I am referring to a lot of people, let's just say in the United States, that claim to be Christians. Not teachers and Pastors and Ministers.... and not even necessarily regular church goers. I just read a PEW Research poll, asking how often Christians read their Bibles..... 39% said Seldom or Never.... that is over 1/3... and incredibly sad.

Not surprisingly the higher the income level, the less people read the Bible.

Currently there are about 210 Million Christians in the United States (This includes Catholics and Protestants) which means 81 Million American Christians seldom or never read their Bibles.

Yes, but even these well-educated seminary graduates disagree on many things. So it doesn't seem like your point, hyperbole or not, is a strong argument.

 

[rockytopva]

Yes, but even these well-educated seminary graduates disagree on many things. So it doesn't seem like your point, hyperbole or not, is a strong argument.

And I worry about special revelations these days in which some kind of strange new mindset is required for some kind of strange new spirituality.

The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation - Romans 10

From there we work out our salvation and see what God has in store for us.

 

[Strong in Him]

For His glory, as the Bible states.

Yes, but he created people, finite, mortal people, because he wanted to have a relationship with them.
He would have been glorified all the more if he hadn't created us - because he would have all the angels, cherubim and seraphim to worship, and serve, him for all eternity.

 

[PastorKeith]

Sure not literally a physical bible. But the words in the bible. They are the word of God inspired by Him.

It seems like your counter-argument I quoted in my last reply was that just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean that it is accurate? Because I was replying to your response to "There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God?"

You make it seem like just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean it is an accurate reporting.

Am I interpreting what you said incorrectly?

Sorry brother, I am not sure who you are speaking to, part of your reply seems to target another poster, and some to what I have said. My vantage point is that the Bible is without error and fully sufficient for our understanding. We do not need man or other books to decipher God's Word, we only need the Holy Spirit... so yes the entire Bible is accurate and true.

 

[public hermit]

Sure not literally a physical bible. But the words in the bible. They are the word of God inspired by Him.

It seems like your counter-argument I quoted in my last reply was that just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean that it is accurate? Because I was replying to your response to "There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God?"

You make it seem like just because it is in the bible, doesn't mean it is an accurate reporting.

Am I interpreting what you said incorrectly?

The passage about God creating evil shouldn't be considered accurate reporting, no. We should not approach the Bible as an inerrant report of the nature of God. In it, we find poetry, metaphor, and other devices that need interpretation. It's not the 5 o'clock news.

 

[PastorKeith]

Yes, but even these well-educated seminary graduates disagree on many things. So it doesn't seem like your point, hyperbole or not, is a strong argument.

I was replying to a comment by another poster who said "the Bible is quite ambiguous" supporting his claim that other books that teach or expound on theology are quite necessary in deciphering the truth of God's Word. My point was very few Christians outside of Apologetic circles are going to pursue high level philosophical works and studies on exegesis.... illustrating that a large number of ordinary Christians don't even read their Bibles. They rely on other men to tell them what it says, and that is a very dangerous place to be.

 

[PastorKeith]

The passage about God creating evil shouldn't be considered accurate reporting, no. We should not approach the Bible as an inerrant report of the nature of God. In it, we find poetry, metaphor, and other devices that need interpretation. It's not the 5 o'clock news.

Could it be, you reject that verse because it flies in the face of everything you have learned through religion? The same happened to me, I was all about free will this and free will that for YEARS.... then one day I understood.... Free FROM WHAT exactly? If the answer we seek, is that choices we make are free from God's will, when every breath we take is dependent upon Him, then we seek foolishly to grasp a mist with a tightened fist, meaning no matter how hard we tried to catch it, we never will.

 

[public hermit]

Could it be, you reject that verse because it flies in the face of everything you have learned through religion? The same happened to me, I was all about free will this and free will that for YEARS.... then one day I understood.... Free FROM WHAT exactly? If the answer we seek, is that choices we make are free from God's will, when every breath we take is dependent upon Him, then we seek foolishly to grasp a mist with a tightened fist, meaning no matter how hard we tried to catch it, we never will.

No, I reject your reading of the passage because it makes God the Creator of evil. Hence, the title of this thread.

 

[Vambram]

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

John 1:10-14

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

The old testament word for evil has a varied meaning. It can be applied to a slight annoyance or a great atrocity.

i.e. spamming is evil and genocide is evil are both valid interpretations.

However, consider the garden, God said to Adam: the earth is cursed because of you.

This relates to where Adam was taken from, the earth. Because Adam's imagination contains "evil" .. the earth also is subjected to "frustration" or "evil."

The result is the existence of weeds while performing agriculture, furthermore death is also a result so we don't live forever in bodies generating evil thoughts.

Since death is defined in one scripture as "the last enemy defeated" .. then it would also be evil in the sense that it is an enemy of God.

God created death, he will also get rid of it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

An important distinction, but why do you come to the conclusion that calamity is correct and evil is wrong? Because of the way other translations use calamity instead of evil? Or is there more study?

To understand what 'evil' means in Isaiah 45:7, we must take a look at the whole verse, and the Hebrew language.

One of the literacy devices commonly used in OT is parallelism. In parallelism, certain statements are placed alongside each other in some sort of relationship. In Isaiah 45 we have something called an antithetical parallelism - a contrast stated in a poetic way, so when something positive is stated, a negative follows.

We read in verse 7 'I form light and create darkness'. There is the clear contrast between God's work of creativity in terms of making both the light and the darkness. Light and darkness are in contrast with each other. In this text we actually have a form of synonymous parallelism, with two verses that are saying the same thing, but the thing that they are saying is a matter of contrast, so this could also be identified as antithetical parallelism. The first line of verse 7 'I form light and create darkness' says that God does both. He makes the light and He makes the darkness, even though these two stand in the contrast.

In the next line, a similar statement is made by God, which would make it synonymous parallelism, but at the same time, it's also a statement of contrast. Notice what the contrast is: 'I make well-being and create calamity. The KJV translation says 'I make peace and create evil'. NIV says 'I bring prosperity and create disaster'. The ESV which I'm using says 'I make well-being and create calamity'. The translators here are trying to get at the force of original Hebrew. While some translations use 'evil' on that second side of structure, the type of 'evil' that is in view is not moral evil, but it is that 'evil' that is in direct contrast to well-being, peace or prosperity. Therefore as we can see, in this context moral evil makes zero sense. Judge for yourself, of which evil Isaiah is speaking of.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You're ignoring Acts 4. I understand why.

Ok let's take a look at the verse 28 then 'to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.'

The KJV translation uses the word 'preordained'. The Greek translation is 'to know beforehand'. The verse in question says that God had “decided beforehand” what should happen when Jesus was put on trial. When foreordained is used in the sense of God’s determining of events before they happen, we enter the tension between human will and God’s sovereignty, as played out in His predestination or election of believers.

Now, what you write in other replies is that the people who crucified Jesus did not have a choice. This is simply wrong. God did not create computers, but human beings who have a choice. On the other hand, there are people who say that God places all decisions in human hands and renders God as little more than a spectator, lacking omniscience and the power to do anything without our permission. Most Christians understand that this tension between God’s sovereignty and human will is only resolved in a supernatural combination of both positions, the truth being somewhere in the middle.

It is like this. Who wrote the book of Romans? Paul or the Holy Spirit? The answer is both.

Clearly, God is sovereign. If He were not, He would not be God. How does the fact that He foreordains things fit with the fact of human choice? In the end, we must be humble enough to admit that there are many things about God that are too high for us to comprehend. Either way, the God is Holy and He does not create moral evil, neither does He force us to sin, that is our choice. You will have to stand before God one day and tell Him that the people who crucified His Son actually had no choice and God forced them to do that, and that He creates moral evil. Are you ready to do that?

 

[JSRG]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

That's from the KJV. Other translations render it differently:

NIV:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NASB:
The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
ESV:
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

One may notice that none of these say "evil". You can't simply pick one translation and act as if that settles the question when other translations render it differently.

The question then becomes, which translation is correct? Well, the Hebrew word in question (רַע, ra) can be used to refer to moral evil. However, it can also refer to adversity (e.g. Psalm 94:13, "days of adversity" or "days of trouble"). So it needs to be determined which of these meanings works better here.

I believe the context makes it fairly clear that adversity/disaster/calamity is a much more plausible translation, and that's because of the preceding remark. Light and darkness are opposites. But peace and evil are not opposites or antonyms. It would be very weird to list two blatant opposites, then list two things that are not. The Hebrew word translated as peace, prosperity, or well-being is שָׁלוֹם, shalom, and it means... well, peace/prosperity/well-being, not good. Since we can be quite sure we are dealing with opposites here given the light/darkness preceding it, the opposite of prosperity would be expected. Which is one of the meanings the Hebrew word has, of calamity/disaster.

It is actually possible that this was the meaning of evil that the translators of the King James Version had in mind: calamity. While nowadays the noun "evil" is normally associated with moral evil, in the past the term could also be used to refer to "a calamity, disaster, misfortune" according to the Oxford English Dictionary (its timeframe of this definition, which it labels obsolete, is "a1300-1791").

 

[PastorKeith]

You will have to stand before God one day and tell Him that the people who crucified His Son actually had no choice and God forced them to do that, and that He creates moral evil. Are you ready to do that?

I will never have to stand before God and defend what He clearly teaches in His Word. Are you ready to make the claim that Pontius Pilate could have decided to set Jesus free, and bypassed the crucifixion all together? And you think God would have just stood by, shrugged His shoulders and said, "well, darn it, plan B it is"