God Created Evil

[PastorKeith]

Now, what you write in other replies is that the people who crucified Jesus did not have a choice. This is simply wrong. God did not create computers, but human beings who have a choice.

Many times in scripture God took control of humans for his Will. Isaiah 10:5-7 is a great example with the army of Assyria:

5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few

Here is an example of God using the Army of Assyria, against their own will, to attack the Nation of Israel, to punish them. They had no choice in the matter, and that was not one man, but an entire army. This sovereignty of God is at play all over creation and most importantly in our salvation.

Do you know why the Bible teaches that being saved is being "born again?" Because just like in your natural birth, you had no choice in the matter.
When you ask me what percent of our salvation is God's power and what percent is our doing... it looks like this:

100% God
0% Us

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I will never have to stand before God and defend what He clearly teaches in His Word. Are you ready to make the claim that Pontius Pilate could have decided to set Jesus free, and bypassed the crucifixion all together? And you think God would have just stood by, shrugged His shoulders and said, "well, darn it, plan B it is"

Pontius Pilate made his choice, that does not mean God was not fully in control. As I said, God is sovereign , that does not mean there is no human will or that we have no choice. How God does this is beyond everyone's comprehension.

God did not create human beings to be like robots playing our roles, having zero choice on what we do, as you seem to imply. We are absolutely responsible for our choices and sins. It is us who rejected God, and we chose to do so, but you seem to imply that we had no choice, which is false.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Many times in scripture God took control of humans for his Will. Isaiah 10:5-7 is a great example with the army of Assyria:

5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few

I know this text well. Assyrians already hated the Israelites in their hearts and wanted them destroyed, so God used this to punish the northern tribe of Israel, and then God punished Assyria for the evil they had in their heart. God is in control of everything, that does not mean we are robots not capable of our own choices, thus God holds us responsible. How is God sovereign over our choices I have no idea.

Do you know why the Bible teaches that being saved is being "born again?" Because just like in your natural birth, you had no choice in the matter.
When you ask me what percent of our salvation is God's power and what percent is our doing... it looks like this:

100% God
0% Us

I know that I am a sinner deserving God's wrath, but God in His mercy sent His Son who atoned and paid for my sins, and I've done absolutely nothing for it, I did not even know that I needed to be saved. That does not mean He forced me to accept Him.

 

[PastorKeith]

Pontius Pilate made his choice, that does not mean God was not fully in control. As I said, God is sovereign , that does not mean there is no human will or that we have no choice. How God does this is beyond everyone's comprehension.

God did not create human beings to be like robots playing our roles, having zero choice on what we do, as you seem to imply. We are absolutely responsible for our choices and sins. It is us who rejected God, and we chose to do so, but you seem to imply that we had no choice, which is false.

I fully agree, that we are responsible for our choices, even where we are acting 100% in the will of God.

 

[PastorKeith]

I know that I am a sinner deserving God's wrath, but God in His mercy sent His Son who atoned and paid for my sins, and I've done absolutely nothing for it, I did not even know that I needed to be saved. That does not mean He forced me to accept Him.

No He did not force you, He chose you. Our salvation is His mighty gift of grace and mercy alone. Praise be to Him.

 

[Dan Perez]

God does not create moral evil. You misunderstand what Isaiah 45:7 means, which I already explained to you.

And I was going to explain Isa 45:7 .

The Hebrew word Hosek // DARKNESS , H2822 is in the Hebrew Singular and in the ABSOLUTE

It is translated DARKNESS 70 X , DARK 7X

And OBSCURITY , and SECRET PLACE .

And a good example of DARKNESS in PSA 104 :20 .and there are many more verses .

I use only the KJV as I believe it better translators .

If you uses BLUE LETTER BIBLE it shows where that HEBREW word DARKNESS is used !!

dan p

 

[Daniel9v9]

God is absolutely not the source of evil. That would be a severe misreading of some English translations of Isaiah 45:7 in which the usage of the word and the context is overlooked. The verse has to do with God's righteous punishment of evil and not the idea of God creating and imputing evil, causing evil or tempting man to sin.

Isaiah 45:7 does not mean that God brings about evil in an immoral sense or causes people to sin. Even if we were to understand it in this way, it would be highly questionable because it contradicts everything else in the Scriptures that testify to God's supreme goodness, holiness, and judgment of evil.

Context is important! Chapter 45, in its immediate context, is about Cyrus acting as God's instrument of wrath on evil. And its wider context is that God punishes all evil because God is righteous and good. That is, the punishment of evil is in itself a good thing. The text even goes on to say that only God saves, which also testifies to the fact that God is not the source of evil; He is not the problem but the solution; He is not the evil causer but the evil punisher.

Isaiah 45:7 in its right context is talking about God's righteousness. This can be clearly understood from reading the whole chapter as opposed to isolating the verse. Even the following verse, Isaiah 45:8, reads: "Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it."

The Hebrew word used in verse 7 doesn't exclusively mean "evil", but "calamity" or "disaster". And we can know what's meant from the context, for it's talking about the destruction of evil and not the creation of sin and evil, not bestowing or imputing of evil. The same goes for Lamentations 3:38 and Amos 3:6.

When reading Isaiah 45:7, especially out of context in the KJV, we have to bear in mind verses such as 1 John 2:16 that says: "For all that is in the world — the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life — is not from the Father but is from the world."

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

 

[Dan1988]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure
(Isaiah 46:9-10).Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning,

But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good
(Romans 8:28).And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

I think that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a lack of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.

 

[Palmfever]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

God is not afraid to speak those words in Isaiah. HE made it all.

 

[Palmfever]

Earlier you stated that God is not "Unjust"

What could be more unjust than a sinless man, suffering the penalty for all of mankind's sin? How was the sacrifice of Jesus "Just" in your eyes?

To me, that was an act of Grace and completely unjust. Jesus did not deserve that penalty.

God's justice

Psalm 9:7–8
But the LORD sits enthroned forever;
He has established his throne for justice,
and he judges the world with righteousness;
He judges the peoples with uprightness.

Gods Justice requires judgment, that He deal with sin.

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

If we look at Job chapter 1 we find God bragging about him and Satan arguing that Jobs righteousness was as a result of God spoiling him.
God did not tempt Job, but he allowed Satan to.
The scripture “God does not tempt any man” is true, but He allows it.

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them for examples. They are written as an admonition to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall. 13 No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, and He will not permit you to be tempted above what you can endure, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins previously committed, 26 to prove His righteousness at this present time so that He might be just and be the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

God created Satan and He knew what would happen. He's not afraid to admit it. He had a plan. Christ is the “Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.”

 

[Palmfever]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil. They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

This is the difficult answer so many people struggle with: God created all there is for His glory, and nothing else.

“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” Isaiah. 43:6–7

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created. All glory be to Him. His understanding is unsearchable (Isaiah 40).

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God, when we are sorely lacking in understanding. What say you?

As soon as we start claiming other things created themselves, such as the power of evil for example, we have fallen headlong into polytheism or pandeism

Not really tenable in either case

Why believers feel the need to protect God from His Own creation is kind of weird. What they usually fail to consider is that God really is Great Enough to deploy the power of evil AND make good of it. And we do have many examples of that in scripture.

IF God makes death, sin and evil bow down and serve Him, THEN He Is A Great God indeed!

I coined this term, a takeoff of other scriptures actually:

All things serve The Maker of all things, whatever things that may be

And even though I may not have a full grasp of what all that means at this point, I'm good with the basic understanding of it. Helps me make some sense out of everything that is, even if an incomplete picture at this time for all of us

 

[jas3]

As soon as we start claiming other things created themselves, such as the power of evil for example, we have fallen headlong into polytheism or pandeism

Has anyone in this thread claimed that?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Has anyone in this thread claimed that?

I'd suggest anyone who insulates God from being the creator of evil power has fallen into that trap, specific persons need not be named. It's a position thing, not a personal thing

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God created Satan and He knew what would happen. He's not afraid to admit it. He had a plan. Christ is the “Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.”

Brilliant deduction.

So will God be a total success or a partial success? That's always what these things boil down to isn't it?

Shouldn't we be good if only HE is the Last Man Standing? I mean why not? IF Eternal Perfection is the only survivor, He Won

This is one of the most frightening scriptures in the book, or at least if would seem so to most:

1 Corinthians 15:24

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I'm picturing the stone, mountain to come, not cut with hands smashing the feet and the residue of the entire enchilada being blown to the wind

Daniel 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[jas3]

I'd suggest anyone who insulates God from being the creator of evil power has fallen into that trap, specific persons need not be named. It's a position thing, not a personal thing

You are still assuming that evil is a created thing, rather than a lack of a created thing. Those in this thread who say God is not the creator of evil are not arguing that it's a "thing" that has created itself, or that has been created by someone other than God, but that it's not a "thing" at all.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

From my book: "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth."

"One verse of scripture is used more than any other to promote the “control” theory.

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Read this verse in the context of what is being said.

Shadows Sometimes Silhouette the Object

Isaiah is setting up opposites. This is a common literary technique used by the authors of the Old Testament. To help us fully understand a principle, the author contrasts one aspect of the principle against another, thereby creating a complete view of what is being said.

"I form the light and create darkness..."

This is more than merely “opposites," rather, it is where the second thing is what you have in the "absence" of the first. There is darkness in the absence of light. There is chaos in the absence of order.

Genesis 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here light is created, and as a result of the light, the dark is defined. I can create darkness too. I can walk in front of the sun and "create" shadow: "darkness."
Without the light, we would not know what the opposite "dark" was. In reality, darkness is merely the absence of light. It is created when light is covered. Darkness came as a result of light being made. You could read that verse as saying:

"I form the light and (by doing so) create (or define) darkness..."

One aspect is contrasted against the other, so you fully understand what He is saying. We have to read the next half of the verse the same way.

"I make peace, and create evil..."

So what is the opposite of peace? I believe that “evil” in this context is just the absence of orderly peace. It is chaos. If you take away the orderly structure of a building, you end up with the chaos of that building falling. Just as you remove light, you end up with darkness, so you end up with chaos and disaster when you remove the orderliness of peace. It is a matter of opposites and the second existing in the absence of the other.
What is defined by the absence of peace? The answer is found in some of the better translations:

Isa 45:7 (GW)
(7) I make light and create darkness.
I make blessings and create disasters.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Disasters come into being in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "blessings."

Isa 45:7 (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

“Calamity” exists in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "well-being."

Isa 45:7 (Amplified Bible)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace [national well-being]
and I create [physical] evil (calamity);
I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

He "creates" physical evil/calamity in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) of "peace/well-being."

Isaiah 45:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

He creates "disaster" because it is the opposite (or absence) of success. In these verses, the meaning of "evil" is controlled and defined by the meaning of an absence of the positive things such as "light" and "peace." The words being used for "create" and "form" are even different Hebrew words, They show that the formation of the first items (light/peace) are the "things" actually "formed" by God, and the second items (darkness/calamity) are merely defined and are the result of the actualization of the first items.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Calamity is the absence of peace. And in this context, I think a better word than peace is actually “placid.” You can reflect that the chaos of a raging sea is the opposite of a placid one.
God created a universe of the possible. Nobody had to fall into evil. But for it to be an actual, genuine, stand-alone creation, it has to be a universe of the possible. When God created this universe of the possible, He imparted elements of His being into it. Sovereignty, the right to exist, the right to act according to its natural forces. We speak of men having free will. But creation itself is endowed with a free course.
Nothing had to careen off into evil, but it did, and God knew it would. But He did not create it evil. He only created the possibility. Without possibility, God could never have a family that loved Him, praised and worshiped him. Without the possibility of evil... there would be no possibility of good.
For instance, my sister gave birth to a child. The child became a criminal. He was not born to be a criminal. But still, my sister unintentionally "created" evil.
God created "chaos" when He created possibility. He is not the author of confusion, only possibility. The fact that confusion exists in the universe proves that God is not in control of everything. When you see possibility, you see God. You see events that God did not directly initiate when you see confusion, evil, and chaos.

It is very much like how the law reveals sin.

 

[Palmfever]

Brilliant deduction.

So will God be a total success or a partial success? That's always what these things boil down to isn't it?

Shouldn't we be good if only HE is the Last Man Standing? I mean why not? IF Eternal Perfection is the only survivor, He Won

This is one of the most frightening scriptures in the book, or at least if would seem so to most:

1 Corinthians 15:24

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I'm picturing the stone, mountain to come, not cut with hands smashing the feet and the residue of the entire enchilada being blown to the wind

Daniel 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

This may be a little bit of a tangent.
It is impossible for God to have partial success or in any fashion thwarted in His plan. It is HIS creation.
Satan is an incredible being as are other angels but he is still a creation of God who thought he was bigger than the 'I' Am.'

I see this world as a volunteer service, boot camp for the perfecting of the saints.

Fear? In the sense that this is the beginning or the end of us.
As one of my neighbor says his response on that day will be, 'I am with your Son.'

We are brothers of the Son. He is our defense. He bought us. We are His sheep and trust His protection.
This is why there is no fear in love. In this wilderness, our shepherd is the Almighty.
We must be working the vineyard when the master returns.
We got the invitation.
We keep a watch.
We maintain the oil of His Spirit in our lamps
We keep our feet on the straight and narrow path.
All that other stuff I am not concerned with.
"Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You are still assuming that evil is a created thing, rather than a lack of a created thing. Those in this thread who say God is not the creator of evil are not arguing that it's a "thing" that has created itself, or that has been created by someone other than God, but that it's not a "thing" at all.

No assumptions required.

Scripture states in multiple citing's that God created all things including all powers:

Habakkuk 2:9

Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Death is also a power

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This may be a little bit of a tangent.
It is impossible for God to have partial success or in any fashion thwarted in His plan. It is HIS creation.
Satan is an incredible being as are other angels but he is still a creation of God who thought he was bigger than the 'I' Am.'

I see this world as a volunteer service, boot camp for the perfecting of the saints.

Fear? In the sense that this is the beginning or the end of us.
As one of my neighbor says his response on that day will be, 'I am with your Son.'

We are brothers of the Son. He is our defense. He bought us. We are His sheep and trust His protection.
This is why there is no fear in love. In this wilderness, our shepherd is the Almighty.
We must be working the vineyard when the master returns.
We got the invitation.
We keep a watch.
We maintain the oil of His Spirit in our lamps
We keep our feet on the straight and narrow path.
All that other stuff I am not concerned with.
"Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I remain firmly convinced that the evil present with me, as it was with Paul, can not be obedient other than obedient to resist God's Laws. Romans 7:13-21

That pretty much leaves us at His Mercy in Christ. And who couldn't be just fine and dandy with that?