God Created Evil

[PastorKeith]

Two agents can be involved in a single event with different motives/intentions. God can desire events that are evil not for the sake of tge evil but to show the impotence of evil compared to God's goodness and power. Those who crucified Jesus intended his destruction and were not planning on him rising again but staying dead. God had a very different plan-to use that most evil event to secure the salvation of himanity. Like I said, God brings good out of the evil that intelligent creatures will.

Earlier you stated that God is not "Unjust"

What could be more unjust than a sinless man, suffering the penalty for all of mankind's sin? How was the sacrifice of Jesus "Just" in your eyes?

To me, that was an act of Grace and completely unjust. Jesus did not deserve that penalty.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) --- Making this eternal stuff

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma --- And bang! Back to plasma!
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, and a mind to study these things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? - Isaiah 40:13

Even if we could... What could we do with basic silica sand save make sand castles? And even then we would have to exist in a perfected environment to do so!

There are those who have never experienced the wonders of energy and light to their wonderful extents. The opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ d (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space. The terrible mind.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred) / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

What can we do with those who walk in darkness (z/d) and have no light (E/c2)?

Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. - Isaiah 50:10

 

[rockytopva]

Therefore... In my opinion... Evil exists where there is no light. In which as the universe goes on forever... Many places with no light!

 

[rockytopva]

If God were to open up and show us E/c2 in its true glory, it would be like the 1812 Overture, with the church bells, cannons, fireworks, orchestra, heavens opening up, accompanied with quite the light show from glory.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You did not address my crucifixion argument. Was the crucifixion a MORAL evil: YES.
Who created and planned that event? God.
Who carried out that event? The invisible hand of God.

You did not address my Isaiah 45 7 argument either.

If you believe that God creates moral evil you need to go on your knees and pray to God. I am disgusted to even read that people write that the Holy God creates moral evil.

The Romans crucified Him. The people of Israel were also complicit in the death of Jesus. Peter confirmed this in Acts 2:22-23 when he told the men of Israel, “You, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” In fact, the murder of Jesus was a conspiracy involving Rome, Herod, the Jewish leaders, and the people of Israel, a diverse group of people who never worked together on anything before or since, but who came together this one time to plot and carry out the unthinkable: the murder of the Son of God.

While God did not literally kill Jesus, God allowed Him to be put to death by the hands of the Jews and Romans. Acts emphasizes God’s sovereign knowledge as He allowed people to brutally and unlawfully murder His Son: “This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross” (emphasis added). While God did not stop people from physically killing Jesus, He also did not allow death to have the final say: “But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him” (Acts 2:24). Christ’s death and resurrection was part of God’s perfect plan to eternally redeem all who would believe in Him. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" ( 2 Corin 5:21). Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross provides salvation for all who trust in Him.

All who have come to Christ in faith are guilty of His blood, shed on the cross for us. He died to pay the penalty for our sins(Romans 5:8)

Do not even bother replying that God creates moral evil again, I won't respond to that anymore.

 

[public hermit]

Earlier you stated that God is not "Unjust"

What could be more unjust than a sinless man, suffering the penalty for all of mankind's sin? How was the sacrifice of Jesus "Just" in your eyes?

To me, that was an act of Grace and completely unjust. Jesus did not deserve that penalty.

Did God cause humans to crucify Jesus? Or did they choose to crucify him and God, knowing that would happen, used it for God's purposes? I would say the later. God didn't do evil, but God used human evil for good

 

[PastorKeith]

You did not address my Isaiah 45 7 argument either.

If you believe that God creates moral evil you need to go on your knees and pray to God. I am disgusted to even read that people write that the Holy God creates moral evil.

The Romans crucified Him. The people of Israel were also complicit in the death of Jesus. Peter confirmed this in Acts 2:22-23 when he told the men of Israel, “You, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” In fact, the murder of Jesus was a conspiracy involving Rome, Herod, the Jewish leaders, and the people of Israel, a diverse group of people who never worked together on anything before or since, but who came together this one time to plot and carry out the unthinkable: the murder of the Son of God.

While God did not literally kill Jesus, God allowed Him to be put to death by the hands of the Jews and Romans. Acts emphasizes God’s sovereign knowledge as He allowed people to brutally and unlawfully murder His Son: “This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross” (emphasis added). While God did not stop people from physically killing Jesus, He also did not allow death to have the final say: “But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him” (Acts 2:24). Christ’s death and resurrection was part of God’s perfect plan to eternally redeem all who would believe in Him. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" ( 2 Corin 5:21). Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross provides salvation for all who trust in Him.

All who have come to Christ in faith are guilty of His blood, shed on the cross for us. He died to pay the penalty for our sins(Romans 5:8)

Do not even bother replying that God creates moral evil again, I won't respond to that anymore.

You're ignoring Acts 4. I understand why.

 

[PastorKeith]

Did God cause humans to crucify Jesus? Or did they choose to crucify him and God, knowing that would happen, used it for God's purposes? I would say the later. God didn't do evil, but God used human evil for good

In Acts 4, God tells us His invisible hand controlled that event for His glory. Your last statement I agree with... however, the humans involved had no choice in the matter.

 

[public hermit]

In Acts 4, God tells us His invisible hand controlled that event for His glory. Your last statement I agree with... however, the humans involved had no choice in the matter.

Okay, then we disagree over human agency as the cause of evil. The humans who crucified Jesus were not guilty of sin, according to your position since, although it was the murder of an innocent person, God determined their choice. In short, God sinned by making humans kill an innocent person, even though God explicitly commanded them not to murder. See what I mean by "absurdity"? Unless you tweak your understanding of evil and the power of intelligent agents to choose evil, you end up with absurdity.

As far as Acts 2:23 goes, definite foreknowledge and plan does not necessarily entail determinism. The same holds for 4:28. God can predestine what God knows will take place by allowing hardened hearts to act as they choose, and God can do that simply to show the impotence of evil intention compared to the powerful love of God.

You act as if you are taking scripture at face value. But you are interpreting scripture, as am I, and that makes all the difference. So your claim that God creates evil is an act of interpretation, and it's one that makes God evil, which is absurd. And let's face it, it's more offensive to say God is evil than to say someone's interpretation leads to absurdities.

 

[PastorKeith]

Okay, then we disagree over human agency as the cause of evil. The humans who crucified Jesus were not guilty of sin, according to your position since, although it was the murder of an innocent person, God determined their choice. In short, God sinned by making humans kill an innocent person, even though God explicitly commanded them not to murder. See what I mean by "absurdity"? Unless you tweak your understanding of evil and the power of intelligent agents to choose evil, you end up with absurdity.

As far as Acts 2:23 goes, definite foreknowledge and plan does not necessarily entail determinism. The same holds for 4:28. God can predestine what God knows will take place by allowing hardened hearts to act as they choose, and God can do that simply to show the impotence of evil intention compared to the powerful love of God.

You act as if you are taking scripture at face value. But you are interpreting scripture, as am I, and that makes all the difference. So your claim that God creates evil is an act of interpretation, and it's one that makes God evil, which is absurd. And let's face it, it's more offensive to say God is evil than to say someone's interpretation leads to absurdities.

You have mistated my position grievously. My position is God creates ALL things for His glory and can make an evil act happen for His glory without be labeled evil. We do not need to understand this dichotomy, in fact, it is impossible for us to know the fullness of God. We cannot understand His thoughts and His ways, as He is God. We are a tiny creation. And we think we can judge Him for His actions... that is true absurdity.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) --- Making this eternal stuff

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma --- And bang! Back to plasma!
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, and a mind to study these things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? - Isaiah 40:13

Even if we could... What could we do with basic silica sand save make sand castles? And even then we would have to exist in a perfected environment to do so!

There are those who have never experienced the wonders of energy and light to their wonderful extents. The opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ d (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space. The terrible mind.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred) / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

What can we do with those who walk in darkness (z/d) and have no light (E/c2)?

Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. - Isaiah 50:10

The evil came with Lucifer, the light bearer. The true energies turned into ego, in which was passed on to the woman (a tree to be desired to make one wise), and then on to places like Sodom...

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. - Isaiah 16:49

So the false energies invented by Lucifer and his angels were passed down to humans.

 

[public hermit]

You have mistated my position grievously. My position is God creates ALL things for His glory and can make an evil act happen for His glory without be labeled evil. We do not need to understand this dichotomy, in fact, it is impossible for us to know the fullness of God. We cannot understand His thoughts and His ways, as He is God. We are a tiny creation. And we think we can judge Him for His actions... that is true absurdity.

If God makes evil happen, then God is the cause of evil. I guess we're supposed to believe God does evil and yet is not evil? And then we're not supposed to notice that doesn't make sense? Okay.

 

[rockytopva]

The evil, therefore, was invented by Lucifer...

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:44

 

[PastorKeith]

If God makes evil happen, then God is the cause of evil. I guess we're supposed to believe God does evil and yet is not evil? And then we're not supposed to notice that doesn't make sense? Okay.

Yes. You are supposed to believe what the Bible says.

 

[public hermit]

Yes. You are supposed to believe what the Bible says.

I can see we won't agree on how to handle the scriptures. But I do think we agree on the importance of divine sovereignty. Let me offer two accounts of divine sovereignty, and you tell me which one sounds like a more powerful, more sovereign God:

Divine Sovereignty 1:
God is so powerful, that when God creates intelligent creatures with agency/will, they cannot do other than God wills. If they do evil, it is because that is what God desires, and God's desire must be fulfilled. If God does not want it to happen, it doesn't happen. So evil is done by God.

Divine Sovereignty 2:
God is so powerful, that when God creates intelligent creatures with agency/will, they can do other than God wills. If they do evil, it begins in their own desire, but God's desire must be fulfilled. If creatures do what God does not want to happen, they can do so, but God will transform it and them to conform to God's good will. So evil is destroyed by God.

Which one of those accounts sounds like a more powerful, more sovereign God?

 

[JulieB67]

Could it be that most Christians, especially in the western world, never read their Bibles, let alone seek the Holy Spirit's guidance? Could it be most westernized Christians rely more on youtube pastors, in place of reading for themselves?

The word evil can mean different things when we translate it back. But as for creating evil just to create it, no of course not. I don't think the text is stating that because we know this verse below to be true.

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Would creating evil in itself give God pleasure? No, of course not. The word create in the Hebrew can mean "bring about" so I believe it's more along the lines of what Ivan posted-

So this verse means 'I make well-being and I create calamity

 

[BNR32FAN]

I would interpret verses 6, 7, and 8 as God intended them to be interpreted. "Literal" has nothing to do with anything.... read the verses and take away the meaning that is clearly present. In verse 6, what is the meaning? That He is the only GOD that exists, all others are false gods. You should clearly understand that. In verse 7, again there is only ONE clear meaning. Which is shown to be true all over the Bible. In Acts chapter four we read this example:

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Now, was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ an act of Evil? I would say it was the ultimate act of Evil, brought about by the invisible hand of God and guided by Him unto completion. Before the foundations of the Earth, this event was settled.... Pontius Pilate had no say in the matter, Judas had no say in the matter. God brought it to completion for His Glory.


There are countless examples in the Bible of evil acts or events brought about by God for His purpose and He tells us why He does it.... so why then, do we argue against God? This in NO way makes Him an evil God.... his ways are unsearchable, who are we to declare what is evil and what is good?

I agree that we should allow the scriptures to teach what they teach but we have to take all scripture into consideration in order to determine what they teach. You’re quoting a proverbial passage and it seems that you’re formulating a doctrine based on that passage but how does James 1:13-17 fit into this doctrine?

God has used evil people for His purposes numerous times, that doesn’t mean that He was the source of their evil. All God had to do was put Jesus in the right place in the right time under the right circumstances and man would accomplish His plan on his own. Why was Jesus crucified? He was crucified for claiming to be equal to God. It was Christ’s own words that brought about His crucifixion, not God taking control over someone.

 

[jas3]

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

There are several commentaries on this verse you may want to read: Isaiah 45:7 - Catena Bible & Commentaries

The historical Christian interpretation of this verse is clearly that God causes events ("calamities") and situations which are described as "evil," but He is not the creator of evil per se, because as others have pointed out (and I would be happy to direct you to various Christian authors on this point), evil per se has no existence.

 

[Strong in Him]

I have been a Christian since 2006, and in most of those years, Christians I spoke to would staunchly rebuke the idea that God created evil.

And they would be correct.
God is light; in him there is no darkness at all, 1 John 1:5.
God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.
God tells people over and over again to refrain from evil, Psalm 5:4, Psalm 34:14, Job 36:10, Jeremiah 26:3, Amos 5:14, Habakkuk 1:13. Why would he ask/command people to refrain from evil if he created it?
The Bible says that God hates evil, Psalm 34:16 Proverbs 8:13. Jesus told us to pray "deliver us from evil". Deliver us from something that God created; really?

They would say evil is simply a result of our human sinful choices. But that's not what the Bible clearly states...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The Bible says many, many times that we are to reject evil and that the Lord wants us to turn from evil.
We can't make a doctrine out of one verse.

Many Christians will use James as a rebuke, where he states God never tempts anyone, but tempting someone to sin, and creating evil are not the same thing. God created everything that exists, evil exists, therefore God created evil... this even fits a logical argument. But why would a holy God create evil? For His Glory.

God is God; awesome, majestic, holy, pure, all-knowing, all-seeing, compassionate, kind and love. Love does not delight in evil.
He does not need to think up despicable acts such as rape, murder, mutilation, oppressing the poor, degrading children etc. etc. so that he can be glorified.
Such a thought is repulsive.

Some Christians believe He created us because He loves us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Of course He does love us and wants a relationship with us, but that is not why we were created.

Why would God have created us otherwise?

I think we humans try to put our understanding of love and holiness on God,

God IS love, 1 John 4:8.
God is holy, Psalm 22:3, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 6:3, Ezekiel 36:21, 1 Peter 1:15-16.

 

[doughtz]

Could it be that most Christians, especially in the western world, never read their Bibles, let alone seek the Holy Spirit's guidance? Could it be most westernized Christians rely more on youtube pastors, in place of reading for themselves?

If that's the case, you are inferring that teaching pastors at thousands of churches all don't read their bibles. Including ones that graduate from seminary schools with M. Divs.

It's not simply people are not reading their bibles. It is definitely that not everything is black and white and cut and dry in the bible. There are some things not mentioned or mentioned without background knowledge.