GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[ittarter]

Can we just have some sensible, open discussion?

On page 30 of a thread? That's wishful thinking, friend.

 

[Zeena]

Well, I thought that those few postulates were widely held enough for me to not look up the verses, but as you wish, I'll start looking some stuff up.

Thank you!

It is difficult for me to understand where you are coming from without such backing.

Then how did he sin? If he was very good, then he cannot have sinned.

You presume too much..

Jesus is God, will you agree with me on that?
And God is good, surely?

Jesus was TEMPTED as we are, yet without sinning.

Problem solved if you agree with the first two premise, no?

Which means that God did not create him "Very Good", which is a violation of the scriptures. Which leads me to yet another nonsensical dead end.

Jesus is OF God, and He was tempted;

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Ergo, it is possible to be tempted and sin not.

Otherwise the commandments are in vain, and God is evil.

Job was righteous all his days, even the Lord testified about him and his walk.

As many as I need to until I find answers which explain this logical inconsistency. I'm not afraid of attacking God to find answers, I don't think that God would want me to put my trust in Him if I was unsure. I think (and this is purely speculation) that God would want me to come to him satisfied with the scriptures, and not following in blind faith.

Not so.

All God wants is YOU, you can leave your theology at the door
But, nevertheless, this is a debate forum, so bring it here, leave it with Jesus.

I'm sorry if my method of debate seems like I am attacking God the whole time, really this is just a hypothetical so calm down a bit...

You weren't really debating, but rather making blind speculations.. but if you say it's hypothetical, then I take you at your word, be at peace.

With Jesus.

With Jesus.

You seem so scared of offending God that you will not have an open discussion about this - any time I (or someone else) makes some sort of hypothetical statement, mostly to poke holes in someone's logic, you come up against us raging about "What will I do on the day of reckoning?"

We need a Saviour, and a Saviour Who will not save is no Saviour at all!

So yes, I take the Godhead quite personally.
Our Salvation depends on Who He is.

Can we just have some sensible, open discussion?

As long as assertions are not blindly thrown around without Biblical backing, sure.

 

[Zeena]

You do realize that the word angel just means messenger so an angel can be either a man or an angel being right?

Yes. Do you understand how that can be so by looking into the Hebraic text? IOW; You understand, then, that eliohim can be construed to speak of either THE God, or gods in the plural, angels, men in kingly estates, ect..?

ergo, whenever eliohim is mentioned, we must take proper precaution to not be deceived;

2 Cor 11:14-15
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Not to mention that if we are to follow you line umm "reasoning" then there would be no adversaries because they are all in Hell already!

Hell is not yet kindled.

Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

The Day of Judgement has not yet happened.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Also show me where I said there a no enemies of God?

Nowhere that's where, but you would like to insinuate that I did so could have grounds to accuse me.

To be fair, you did not use those words precisely, but you did imply as much with this statement;

If the Lucifer doctrine falls so does the Satan as a scapegoat to take the fall for being the origin of evil doctrine as well. (pun intended)

Now, if I misunderstood, I'm willing to be corrected..
But, didn't you intend this to mean that THE God is the One sending evil doctrines upon man, seeing as it ain't the devil who is the "origin of evil doctrine"?

Who is an enemy but the devil?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

Actually it is you that is saying that God has no enemies by quoting verses to make it look like a bunch of angelic beings got chucked out of heaven and are now in Hell.

1 Peter 5:8-9
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Better?

You need to check the verses you quote more carefully from now on!

Tell me what you expect, and I'll do my best.

 

[JagDragon]

All God wants is YOU, you can leave your theology at the door
But, nevertheless, this is a debate forum, so bring it here, leave it with Jesus.

Yes, but what if this issue of theology is getting in the way of my faith? I cannot believe something that I don't understand, or that has issues in it that I cannot seem to be able to get past.

 

[ittarter]

Jag and Marty, still hoping for replies to this post and this post. Any thoughts?

 

[Zeena]

Jag and Marty, still hoping for replies to this post and this post. Any thoughts?

Those links lead to posts from AGEE ago (and they are not your posts, I might add)..

Post numbers are a better way to 'link' on these forums, as they are constant.

 

[Zeena]

Yes, but what if this issue of theology is getting in the way of my faith?

Is your faith is in God to save you, or your theology?

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Romans 8:15-17
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I cannot believe something that I don't understand, or that has issues in it that I cannot seem to be able to get past.

Join the club!

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Cor 5:2-9
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

[ittarter]

Those links lead to posts from AGEE ago (and they are not your posts, I might add)..

Post numbers are a better way to 'link' on these forums, as they are constant.

They work for me, and they link directly to posts from yesterday. YESTERDAY!!! I have no idea why they're not working for you, but I'm positive either you or your browser are malfunctioning. For the record, I'm referring to posts 584 and 586.

 

[martymonster]

Is your faith is in God to save you, or your theology?

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Romans 8:15-17
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Join the club!

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Cor 5:2-9
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Oh man. (shakes head)

Sigh:o

 

[Zeena]

Oh man. (shakes head)

Sigh:o

How is this belittling, inflamous, mocking comment related to the OP MartyMonster?

 

[ittarter]

Maybe you guys should take a break from this thread and come back after a bit of a rest? Or do I need to make some reports to force a hiatus?

 

[martymonster]

Maybe you guys should take a break from this thread and come back after a bit of a rest? Or do I need to make some reports to force a hiatus?

I'm out for good.

This is just pointless now!

 

[ittarter]

Well, at least you went out with a flame.

See you around.

 

[Gareth]

Was not the evil that we have inherited from Adam, justified in any way? Adam disobeyed the statute from God and therefore faced the justice of God for his actions. He knew what he could and couldn't do. As Paul noted (1Tim. 2:14) Adam saw through the deception, but Eve didn't. Adam could of taken the high moral ground, but didn't. Instead he sided with his wife, disobeyed the instructions of God then blamed God for creating Eve (Gen. 3:11,12).

So justice had to be seen to be done. The evil God brought onto the human race was as a result of people going against the rule of God. Further instances are seen in the events up to the Flood and the Plagues on Egypt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the various times the Hebrews rebelled against God and were swatted by Him. Was this not in any way justice? Equally, God has sought to bring evil on people yet has chosen to refrain from it after seeing a repentant attitude. A classic example of this is found in the book of Jonah with the Ninevites (Jon. 3:9,10; also Eze.33:11). God always gave out a warning before dishing out punishment. From this we can really see the qualities God has in which love pre-dominates.

 

[anthony55]

Everything that Has existence God created it, either directly or indirectly.

 

[Zeena]

Everything that Has existence God created it, either directly or indirectly.

That is correct.

And since sin is not an entity, it does not have 'existance'.
Sin does not 'breath', men do, who sin.

 

[Hillsage]

That is correct.

And since sin is not an entity, it does not have 'existance'.
Sin does not 'breath', men do, who sin.

I was going along with what you just said when all of a sudden this verse came to mind.

GEN 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

So my question is, what do you think this verse is talking about? If something has "desire" wouldn't it have to have/be an entity???

I just looked at Webster's and it said "a thing that has real and individual existance, in reality or in the mind."

~Hillsage~

 

[OzSpen]

Zeena,

That is correct.

And since sin is not an entity, it does not have 'existance'.
Sin does not 'breath', men do, who sin.

So, do you ever sin? If you do, does that sin exist as an action that you commit?

Or, have you redefined entity to mean the opposite of existence? The Macquarie Dictionary's first definition for entity is "something that has a real existence; a thing". Therefore, your understanding of entity is contrary to the common, dictionary understanding.

So by definition, sin as an entity does have real existence.

 

[OzSpen]

Antony,

Everything that Has existence God created it, either directly or indirectly.

Are you saying that God created 9/11, the Third Reich and Pol Pot's killing fields?

 

[martymonster]

Antony,


Are you saying that God created 9/11, the Third Reich and Pol Pot's killing fields?

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.