GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

I would like someone to come up with an idea of how this following gels with predestination and God not creating evil?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

That's basically what your saying isn't it?

Why have you made me thus...? Why did you make me a sinner?

Exodus 3:19-20
And I know that the king of Egypt will not give you leave to go, no, not by a mighty hand. And I will put forth my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

IOW; It was Pharoah's choice, he hardened his OWN heart, and the Lord decided to make a full end to his tyrannical rule.

It's high time we took responsibilty for our own sins before God.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In speaking of Israel after the flesh, Saint Paul Prophecies of their demise at the hands of the Roman Empire.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

For they are the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction, whom He endured with much longsuffering.. We, Gentiles, are the vessels of honour and Mercy, that through the Mercy shown us, THEY might Glorify God for His Mercy..

Saint Pauls entire discourse thus far was in keeping with speaking of the Nation of Israel (not Israel, after the Spirit, to Whom belong the Partiarch's and Prophets of old, I might add.. But rather, those after the flesh who sacrificed VAIN offerings, as they did in the wilderness those 40 years)

Pleased to not be going outside scripture with you answer Zeena.

Romans 11:20-21
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[martymonster]

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.


How does one in the God did not create evil camp explain this verse without contradicting other verses in the bible?

I'll will point out too the Hebrew word for evil in this verse is that same Hebrew word used for evil in Genesis as in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:


Yet another example of God sending evil upon people.
Are we so incredibly blind to believe that God would send an evil spirit if He Himself wasn't responsible for their evil?

The thing that really gets Me with you people is that you'll bend over backwards to remove any chance that God would created evil any then in the same breath you'll say that He's created a place of non stop evil.

It just doesn't make any sense!

 

[martymonster]

That's basically what your saying isn't it?

Why have you made me thus...? Why did you make me a sinner?

Exodus 3:19-20
And I know that the king of Egypt will not give you leave to go, no, not by a mighty hand. And I will put forth my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

IOW; It was Pharoah's choice, he hardened his OWN heart, and the Lord decided to make a full end to his tyrannical rule.

It's high time we took responsibilty for our own sins before God.

In speaking of Israel after the flesh, Saint Paul Prophecies of their demise at the hands of the Roman Empire.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

For they are the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction, whom He endured with much longsuffering.. We, Gentiles, are the vessels of honour and Mercy, that through the Mercy shown us, THEY might Glorify God for His Mercy..

Saint Pauls entire discourse thus far was in keeping with speaking of the Nation of Israel (not Israel, after the Spirit, to Whom belong the Partiarch's and Prophets of old, I might add.. But rather, those after the flesh who sacrificed VAIN offerings, as they did in the wilderness those 40 years)

Romans 11:20-21
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

No sorry Zeena, you tried skirt around the clear meaning of the scripture but you failed miserably and have shown clearly that you are just trying to make the bible say what you want it to!

The bible as flawed as it is with all it's translation issues still clearly shows that God hardens the hearts of certain individuals so that they cannot repent.

Even God only hardened the heart of one person then that is still in violation according to you of His number 1 rule.

Freewill.

What then do you do with scripture verses like this then?


Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

 

[Zeena]

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Is the Lord now more than One Spirit?

No, this much is obvious, is it not?

Therefore, was it the Spirit of the Lord, Who had just left him, or, was it a spirit FROM the Lord, like it says?

1Sa 16:15
And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Do you contend that God's Holy Spirit is evil?

I suggest you look up the words in detail, for this;

RA RUWACH is NOT God.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

How does one in the God did not create evil camp explain this verse without contradicting other verses in the bible?

one in the God did not create? huh?

I'll will point out too the Hebrew word for evil in this verse is that same Hebrew word used for evil in Genesis as in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Ra, is NOT ra ruwach. The Tree of Knowledge was not a spirit.

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Yet another example of God sending evil upon people.

Or, an obvious case of the Lord releasing what He had bound. Even as in the case of Job, where the Lord had hedged him in, so that no evil spirits came against his household.

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

It wasn't the Lord's hand who touched all that Job had, it was Satan's.

Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Are we so incredibly blind to believe that God would send an evil spirit if He Himself wasn't responsible for their evil?

I am sorry that you feel that God is responsible for all the works of evil spirits, as if there was no enemy.. It leaves you rather helpless against him, for when he comes he shall have full reign to deceive.

The thing that really gets Me with you people is that you'll bend over backwards to remove any chance that God would created evil any then in the same breath you'll say that He's created a place of non stop evil.

It just doesn't make any sense!

I can't help but notice you capitolised the Me, while leaving the 'you people' all in lower case..

Mathew 19:30
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

 

[JM]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

So? What's your point?

 

[JM]

double post, please remove

 

[JM]

Vincent Cheung .com » Why God Created Evil

 

[martymonster]

Is the Lord now more than One Spirit?

No, this much is obvious, is it not?

Therefore, was it the Spirit of the Lord, Who had just left him, or, was it a spirit FROM the Lord, like it says?

Do you contend that God's Holy Spirit is evil?

I suggest you look up the words in detail, for this;

RA RUWACH is NOT God.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

one in the God did not create? huh?

Ra, is NOT ra ruwach. The Tree of Knowledge was not a spirit.

Or, an obvious case of the Lord releasing what He had bound. Even as in the case of Job, where the Lord had hedged him in, so that no evil spirits came against his household.

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

It wasn't the Lord's hand who touched all that Job had, it was Satan's.

Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I am sorry that you feel that God is responsible for all the works of evil spirits, as if there was no enemy.. It leaves you rather helpless against him, for when he comes he shall have full reign to deceive.

I can't help but notice you capitolised the Me, while leaving the 'you people' all in lower case..

Mathew 19:30
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

I'm no going to address everything in your post or I'll be here all day.

The verse clearly says that an evil spirit from the Lord troubled Saul but you contend that it says no such thing?

Can you not see that you are just blatantly twisting the scriptures to say what you want it to and thus robbing it of it's meaning?

Do You not know what God says concerning such things?


Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.


The book He is talking about is the whole scriptures not just the book of Revelation and is this not what you have been doing?

 

[Zeena]

No sorry Zeena, you tried skirt around the clear meaning of the scripture but you failed miserably and have shown clearly that you are just trying to make the bible say what you want it to!

The bible as flawed as it is with all it's translation issues still clearly shows that God hardens the hearts of certain individuals so that they cannot repent.

Esau SOLD his birthright, and the blessing of the firstborn was already given to Jacob, therefore was there no place left for repentance, though he sought it with tears. He had made his bed, and now, he must lie in it.

Even God only hardened the heart of one person then that is still in violation according to you of His number 1 rule.

Freewill.

Did God cause Pharoah to sin, in the first place?

That's really the question now, isn't it?

1 Samuel 6:6
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

What then do you do with scripture verses like this then?

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Mal 4:5-6
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Were all hearts turned when Elijah came? Certainly not!
But, to those who loved God and believed on His Son we've received Grace for Grace;

Our responsablility;

Ez 18:31,36:26
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God's response to our taking responsability;

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

RESPONSE ABILITY!

 

[JagDragon]

Is there any support for your first premise? Did God create Christian Forums? (That must have been on the unrecorded eighth day of creation...?)

Yes, of course He did. Everything in the universe must have been created by God, albeit through proxy with us.

I could believe that God did not mean to create some things, but that would be implying God makes accidents, and that He is not omniscient. Since He is omniscient, He knew, before He even created us, that we would do evil deeds, yet He did nothing to fix that! Thus the earth was made a sinful place. Why did that have to happen, why couldn't He just create us without sin and evil?

Quick answer..yes.

BECAUSE you programmed it to murder people, even though you knew it was wrong.

Do you see now why the analogy fails?

No, I fail to see where the analogy fails. I did not specifically program the robot to murder, I programmed it with intelligence and decision-making, so I knew that, if it so chose, it could do good things as well as bad.

How is this a flawed analogy? Am I not responsible for its actions?

 

[Zeena]

I'm no going to address everything in your post or I'll be here all day.

The verse clearly says that an evil spirit from the Lord troubled Saul but you contend that it says no such thing?

Can you not see that you are just blatantly twisting the scriptures to say what you want it to and thus robbing it of it's meaning?

Do You not know what God says concerning such things?


Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.


The book He is talking about is the whole scriptures not just the book of Revelation and is this not what you have been doing?

Don't blame me for your misapprehenion of Hebrew

Here, let's look at this in an alternate light, shall we?

When Jesus was casting out demons (spirits), was He casting out Himself?

Luke 11:14-26
And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[JagDragon]

When Jesus was casting out demons (spirits), was He casting out Himself?

I know I have not quoted all your posts, but what you seem to be arguing is that God is evil spirits, or he is not. There is no halfway point for you, where a logical one would be that God had evil spirits working for him or something.

 

[Zeena]

I know I have not quoted all your posts, but what you seem to be arguing is that God is evil spirits, or he is not. There is no halfway point for you, where a logical one would be that God had evil spirits working for him or something.

What King knowingly hires worthless servants?

Matthew 21:33-40
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

 

[martymonster]

I know I have not quoted all your posts, but what you seem to be arguing is that God is evil spirits, or he is not. There is no halfway point for you, where a logical one would be that God had evil spirits working for him or something.

Exactly!

God does indeed have evil spirits working for Him.
No twisting of the scriptures to show it.

 

[JagDragon]

What King knowingly hires worthless servants?
*snips off random unrelated parable*

A lot of Kings knowingly hire worthless servants. But that is besides the point, who is saying that the evil servants are worthless? They could be quite useful...

 

[Zeena]

A lot of Kings knowingly hire worthless servants. But that is besides the point, who is saying that the evil servants are worthless? They could be quite useful...

Useful for what, murdering His Only Begotten Son?

Also, I said knowingly..

 

[JagDragon]

Useful for what, murdering His Only Begotten Son?

Also, I said knowingly..

... YES! They are useful, because GOD USES THEM (see bible passages from earlier on in the thread.)

 

[martymonster]

Useful for what, murdering His Only Begotten Son?

Also, I said knowingly..

If you remember correctly it was in fact Jesus that told Judas to go quickly and do what had to be done.


Joh 13:26 Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


doesn't really sound like He was that worthless to God at all seeing as it was someones job to betray Jesus so that He could be crucified for Your sins!

God also uses Satan to crucify our flesh since it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Zeena]

If you remember correctly it was in fact Jesus that told Judas to go quickly and do what had to be done.

That's not what Jesus said, you are changing the words;

Joh 13:26 Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

doesn't really sound like He was that worthless to God at all seeing as it was someones job to betray Jesus so that He could be crucified for Your sins!

God also uses Satan to crucify our flesh since it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are you not equating the works of God as the works of the devil?

Mathew 12:27-28,31-32
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

.

 

[JagDragon]

*Originally Posted by martymonster*
If you remember correctly it was in fact Jesus that told Judas to go quickly and do what had to be done.

*Zeena*
That's not what Jesus said, you are changing the words;

*Originally Posted by martymonster *
Joh 13:26 Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

EXACTLY. How can you read that and get a different interpretation? Allow me to repost the passage from an easier to read translation (NIV)

6Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.