GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

But he did create sin, otherwise it can't exist! Nothing existed before god, so everything that exists now he must have created, or known it was going to happen before he created it.

Sin is not an entity, as it seems you have supposed.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

2 Thes 3:5
And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Suppose I make a robot to perform some trivial purpose, such as fetch my slippers for me in the morning. Then I program intelligence into it, and give it a choice between continuing to give me my slippers, or using its inbuilt laser beam to kill people, knowing full well that it will probably choose the second option. Have I created a killer robot, or just a slipper robot? Am I responsible for the deaths of people then?

Thing is, we're not robots, we're human beings, therefore is your analogy moot.

Yes I know this is quite a silly example, but it is worth thinking about.

God did not 'program' us to sin.

If He did, then I would refuse to serve Him, for He would be evil in vexing my soul in that which i abhor.

Am I not, now, more righteous than God? [I speak as a fool]

Job 40:8
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

I'm not quite sure where you're going with this - you support the idea of predestination?

Romans 8:29-30:
"For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

And who is Saint Paul speaking about?

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This doesn't seem like much of a choice to me, just looks like he picked out a selection of people to go to heaven.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[JagDragon]

Sin is not an entity, as it seems you have supposed.

Love is not an entity: Did God create love?

Suppose I make a robot to perform some trivial purpose, such as fetch my slippers for me in the morning. Then I program intelligence into it, and give it a choice between continuing to give me my slippers, or using its inbuilt laser beam to kill people, knowing full well that it will probably choose the second option. Have I created a killer robot, or just a slipper robot? Am I responsible for the deaths of people then?

Thing is, we're not robots, we're human beings, therefore is your analogy moot. God did not 'program' us to sin.

Forget the idea of it being a robot made out of metal and laser beams. Just think of it as some sort of entity I created which I knew would kill when I gave it the choice, and I did give it the choice, and it killed. Am I responsible for the deaths?

 

[Zeena]

Love is not an entity: Did God create love?

God is Love!

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Forget the idea of it being a robot made out of metal and laser beams. Just think of it as some sort of entity I created which I knew would kill when I gave it the choice, and I did give it the choice, and it killed. Am I responsible for the deaths?

Are you not implying the commandment is in vain?

Is what God spoke vanity?

Deut 30:11-14
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Romans 10:6-12
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[JagDragon]

Are you not implying the commandment is in vain?
Is what God spoke vanity?

What? What do you mean? Explain? Which commandment was in vain, and how?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Evil isn't a substance. Evil is the falling away from good / existence. It's lack of existence.

 

[Zeena]

What? What do you mean? Explain? Which commandment was in vain, and how?

If we are not equipped, endowed, created by God, to keep the commandment..

Then ALL the commandments He spoke are in vain.

Or, was He just mocking us when He spoke the commandments?

 

[JagDragon]

If we are not equipped, endowed, created by God, to keep the commandment..

Then ALL the commandments He spoke are in vain.

Or, was He just mocking us when He spoke the commandments?

Well, that's sort of the issue I'm getting at. Are we not all sinful beings though? Sure, we can keep some commandments, but the whole idea is one little sin condemns us, then we need Jesus' saving grace. And if we are sinful beings, why did God create us that way?

Do you have an answer to my "robot" question?

 

[Zeena]

Well, that's sort of the issue I'm getting at. Are we not all sinful beings though? Sure, we can keep some commandments, but the whole idea is one little sin condemns us, then we need Jesus' saving grace.

We sure do!

John 1:15-17
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

And if we are sinful beings, why did God create us that way?

He didn't, nor could He, seeing as we are made in His Image, every one of us.
We are not sinful beings from birth, rather, our choices define our character.

Do you have an answer to my "robot" question?

See my siggie, join the thread!

 

[JagDragon]

See my siggie, join the thread!

That's not my question at all, please answer it?

 

[Zeena]

That's not my question at all, please answer it?

I already did.

God did not 'program' us to sin.

 

[JagDragon]

Now, without considering God at all, comment on the following situation:

Suppose I make a robot to perform some trivial purpose, such as fetch my slippers for me in the morning. Then I program intelligence into it, and give it a choice between continuing to give me my slippers, or using its inbuilt laser beam to kill people, knowing full well that it will probably choose the second option. Have I created a killer robot, or just a slipper robot? Am I responsible for the deaths of people then?

You have not answered my question at all: All I need is a yes, a no, or an adequate description of how you think my example could be improved.

Consider the "robot" in the example above as some theoretical being that I "created", and endowed it with a mind and will of its own. However, I did know beforehand that it would kill people if I did endow it with a choice.

 

[Zeena]

Now, without considering God at all, comment on the following situation:

Suppose I make a robot to perform some trivial purpose, such as fetch my slippers for me in the morning. Then I program intelligence into it, and give it a choice between continuing to give me my slippers, or using its inbuilt laser beam to kill people, knowing full well that it will probably choose the second option. Have I created a killer robot, or just a slipper robot? Am I responsible for the deaths of people then?

You have not answered my question at all: All I need is a yes, a no, or an adequate description of how you think my example could be improved.

Consider the "robot" in the example above as some theoretical being that I "created", and endowed it with a mind and will of its own. However, I did know beforehand that it would kill people if I did endow it with a choice.

Quick answer..yes.

BECAUSE you programmed it to murder people, even though you knew it was wrong.

Do you see now why the analogy fails?

 

[razeontherock]

JagDragon, this is an important issue you are wrestling with. If there is anything the Bible teaches us, it is to slow down and consider carefully. May I humbly suggest you prayerfully craft a question that gets at the heart of your concern?

 

[anthony55]

anthony55,


Biblical truth and unorthodox Christianity are contradictions.

Regards, Spencer

So.

 

[OzSpen]

JagDragon,

But God, in all his omnipotency, must have forseen that the Angel that was later to become the devil would bring evil into the world. Even before he created the Angel/Devil. So, in effect, he did create evil.

Are you suggesting that God creates moral evil?

Here is the contrast in Isa 45:7:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?

The word translated "evil" or "disaster/calamity" is the Hebrew, ra. It is true that the word can be used to refer to natural disasters or calamities. It is a very common word for evil as a general description in the OT. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Gen. 2:9 uses this word, as is the evil of the people that brought the judgment of Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:5). The evil of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Gen. 13:13 uses this word (Grudem 1994, p. 326 n7).

Ps. 34:14 reads, "Turn away from evil and do good." There’s that word, ra, again. We read of it again in Isa. 59:7, speaking of those whose "feet run to evil." You can read it also in other passages in Isaiah (see Isa. 47:10, 11; 56:2; 57:1; 59:15; 65:12; 66:4)

There are many other OT passages that use ra to refer to moral evil (i.e. sin) and to disaster/calamity. How do we know how to translate? The context will tell us. Does God create evil/sin, or does God create disaster?
As Gordon Lewis and Bruce Demarest put it: "Isaiah does not teach the blasphemous idea that the Lord creates sin!" (1987, p. 312). If we look to the context of Isa. 45:7, this is what we find:

• Isa.45:11, "Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel." He is the God of holiness. So, God could not be the creator of sin. Sin is incompatible with God’s holiness.

• Isaiah predicted that sudden disaster would come to Babylon: "But evil shall come upon you, which you will not know how to charm away; disaster shall fall upon you, for which you will not be able to atone; and ruin shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know nothing" Isa 47:11 (ESV).

You can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV). "Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).

Remember Jonah who was thrown overboard by men on that ship travelling to Tarshish? "Then they [the men on the boat] took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm" (Jonah 1:15, NIV).

However, five verses later, in Jonah 2:3, Jonah is praying to God, "You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me" (NIV).

How is it that the men on the boat threw Jonah overboard and that God hurled Jonah into the deep? The Bible can affirm that men did it and that it was God in action. God brought about his plan by using the men on the boat. In a way that we don’t quite understand, "God caused [the men] to make a willing choice to do what they did" (Grudem 1994, p. 326).

Alec Motyer observes concerning Isa. 45:7,

"Prosperity … disaster: the older, literal rendering ‘peace … evil’ caused unnecessary difficulties. Can the Lord ‘create evil’? Out of about 640 occurrences of the word ra’, which range in meaning from a ‘nasty’ taste to a full moral evil, there are about 275 cases where it refers to trouble or calamity. Each case must be judged by its context and NIV has done so correctly here. Cyrus was ‘bad news’ to the kings he conquered and the cities he overthrew. But Isaiah’s (and the Bible’s) view of divine providence is rigorous – and for that reason full of comfort. Sinful minds want the comfort of a sovereign God but jib at saying with Job (2:10), ‘Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble (ra)?’ (1999, p. 287).

How does this relate to Isa. 45:7? God used people in Jonah’s day to perform an evil action. In Isaiah’s day, God brought disaster on Babylon through the use of human means.

God does not create all of the sinful evil in the world, but God does bring disaster or calamity as his judgment. It was God who created "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:9).

References:
Wayne Grudem 1994, Systematic Theology, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gordon R. Lewis and Bruce A. Demarest 1987, Integrative Theology, vol. 1, Academie Books (Zondervan Publishing House), Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Alec Motyer 1999, Isaiah (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England.

 

[ittarter]

I can enthusiastically endorse that conclusion, as long as you are not suggesting that the nature of the one true God, as demonstrated in Wisdom literature, is different from the nature of the one true God who manifests Himself in the life of Israel and the remainder of the OT.

I sincerely appreciate your making your points in a much clearer way. Thanks so much!

You're welcome.

As a non-metaphysical critic my conclusions do not pertain to metaphysical statements about God's nature but rather how God's nature is perceived variously by different people in different situations at different times and places in history. I believe these observations about the Wisdom and counter-Wisdom traditions do not favor, much less require, a specific metaphysical conclusion. Run with it in whatever manner you wish

 

[ittarter]

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
...
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The Lord claims direct responsibility for what happened to Job.
If I hire a hitman kill someone I am directly responsible for their death and so is the case with Satan doing what God has told Him to do.

You are extrapolating God's responsibility based on an arbitrary analogy, which would be fine, except nowhere in the entire book of Job does the writer make any comparable observations. Thus I think it's reasonable to suppose that it was not part of the original rhetorical goals of the writer.

In other words, the point of Job is not to demonstrate God's responsibility in causing Job's suffering, nor does the book need to make that assumption in order to make the point that it IS making.

Sorry but you are wrong, the whole point of Job is that He thinks that He hasn't done anything wrong.

Earlier on Job gives us a long list of all the good works that He has done and compares it to the works of others and what does christ say?
...
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Would you say that Job was abased?

According to the book of Job, Job IS righteous and innocent (not self-righteous and proud). In chapter 1 that is made clear. Job then suffers without just cause. Job's later "sin" (if that's what you want to call it) has no bearing on that original instance of suffering, because it occurred subsequent to it.

Hence God is still not free from a valid accusation of injustice. God, according to Wisdom, can't punish someone for a sin they're going to commit in the future.

However, through the course of the dialogues that comprise the majority of the book, Job eventually becomes more certain of his righteousness than of God's. God corrects this by visiting Job in power and making Job's cognitive dilemma moot.

The point of Job, therefore, is that the ultimate answer to the dilemma of theodicy (i.e. justifying God's actions for the sake of human understanding) is non-rational in nature. When we step into the temple, so to speak (cf. Ps. 73) we have an encounter that causes us to worship rather than question.

 

[ittarter]

God does not create evil. ALthough many verses seem to point tothe fact that He does, but they are merely mistranlations where calamity is replace with evil.

Interestingly, whereas people in our age have two DIFFERENT words for these things with little semantic overlap, the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish folks of antiquity didn't -- so distinguishing between "moral evil" and "experienced evil" (suffering, pain, calamity, chaos, whatever) is mostly a modern notion. I'd like someone to find a single passage in the Hebrew Bible that actually tries to distinguish between the two. I can't recall any off the top of my head, but maybe someone else could...

The word in Hebrew, by the way, is ra.

He is incapable of fallibilty, and our faith is based off this perfection.

Funny how God is characterized by "regret" in so many instances, e.g. Gen. 6. There IS a passage that deals with this theological inconsistency, in 1 Samuel, when God/Samuel deposes Saul as king of Israel. If you'd like to look at it with me I'd be more than happy to comment on it.

All is according to His purpose, although He has allowed individual the decision as to which roles they shall play.

This sounds fairly accurate, although your key terms aren't defined.

 

[ittarter]

God created everything that is in existence.
Evil exists.
Ergo, God created evil.

Is there any support for your first premise? Did God create Christian Forums? (That must have been on the unrecorded eighth day of creation...?)

 

[martymonster]

I would like someone to come up with an idea of how this following gels with predestination and God not creating evil?


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Pleased to not be going outside scripture with you answer Zeena.