GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

I happen to be going from a Biblical standpoint. God, throught the Bible, is depicted as pure and does not approve of evil.

PURE, PURE!

PURE HOLINESS!!!

How how I love to hear those words from a fellow believer!
Oh how I long for all men everywhere to bow before His Majesty!

 

[squint]

PURE, PURE!

PURE HOLINESS!!!

How how I love to hear those words from a fellow believer!
Oh how I long for all men everywhere to bow before His Majesty!

God can make ANY THING and not BE THAT THING.

He Remains PURE in any case of making or creating any THING or ANY POWER.

 

[2 King]

Prove that with scripture then.
(wasn't that easy)

 

[squint]

Prove that with scripture then.
(wasn't that easy)

If you need scripture to prove that God isn't a THING that He creates you might want to find something else to think about than theology.

 

[2 King]

If you need scripture to prove that God isn't a THING that He creates you might want to find something else to think about than theology.

straw man, now provide.

 

[squint]

strawman? lol...

Anyone who says God becomes the THING He makes belongs in theology kindergarten.

 

[Biker Angel]

KJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Here it is in black & white right from the Bible. It say's I make peace
and create evil. Unless God is lying here, then God creates evil.

It does not get any plainer than that.

Let see what does it say again? Oh Ya..... I create evil.

I have been thinking about this verse since I was a kid. I now know
that God Jehovah Jesus Christ (the same) creates evil. Why? cause
the Bible tells me so.

 

[2 King]

strawman? lol...

Anyone who says God becomes the THING He makes belongs in theology kindergarten.

sigh, seems i'm not getting anything from. you...and i never will other needless red herrings..

 

[2 King]

KJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Here it is in black & white right from the Bible. It say's I make peace
and create evil. Unless God is lying here, then God creates evil.

It does not get any plainer than that.

Let see what does it say again? Oh Ya..... I create evil.

I have been thinking about this verse since I was a kid. I now know
that God Jehovah Jesus Christ (the same) creates evil. Why? cause
the Bible tells me so.

I thought the same thing, until i studied the Hebrew and contrasting in verses.

 

[Tzaousios]

I thought the same thing, until i studied the Hebrew and contrasting in verses.

True, there is a distinction linguistically between the nouns and adjectives which describe physical evils as opposed to moral evils. Nevertheless, this does not mean that God is not sovereign over both types of evil and has them firmly under His control.

You might want to consider the following passages:

Numbers 22:20-22

20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.


Deuteronomy 32:39

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:6-7

6 “The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14

13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?

Psalm 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

Isaiah 6:9-10


9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Isaiah 19:14

14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Isaiah 66:4

4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[squint]

People who try to 'isolate' their God from the 'creation' of certain powers try various arguments. One of the popular methods is to 'reterm' EVIL as 'void of good' and therefore not really EVIL, but 'void of good.'

The scripture states evil as A POWER.

Habakkuk 2:9

Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

In a similar fashion they may also try to isolate the involvement of God in DEATH as being VOID OF LIFE...and again, scripture states DEATH as A POWER:

Hebrews 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

And of course there is the POWER OF SATAN as well:

Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This IS what scripture states about ALL POWERS:

Romans 13:1

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Colossians 1:16

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

s

 

[Zeena]

Sorry, but your argument is lacking on several points. 1st of all, yes man does have the ability to choose, but left to himself, he will always choose in accordance with his own percieved best interest. Only when God reveals Himself to the sinner through illumination of the Holy Spirit, does the person realize that union with God is in fact the most beneficial thing for him to choose. This is the person who perseveres. “For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do".

He has shined the Light of Christ upon every man, some refuse to come to Jesus to be cleansed of their sins. This is quite evident in Scripture;

John 1:4-5
In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 12:35-36
Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 5:12-14
For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

John 3:19-20
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Secondly, I take it you are an Open Theist, ie. the future is "open" to all possibilities.

I am not open theist, I am a Christian with a unique perspective on the Godhead, even as you are a Christian with your own unique perspective, yes?

Me, I believe God gives us each a unique perspective soley for the purpose of His Glory. For in not coming together on theological issues, but rather, on Christ, we come soley on the good ground, and not that of presuppositional theories of men, but the foundation of God.

I believe our Lord allows us to see differing aspects of His Glory so that we seek HIM, rather than man.

As to your assumption of me being open theist, no, I am not.
I am a Christian who believes the future is open to all possibilities, as you stated, BUT that God is working all things according to HIS will, even as He testifies in Scripture.

HIS will is that all should come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, as He stated in the Bible for us to know. And He is hard at work making this a reality to this day, by His Holy Spirit, through believers, through life and death, even through the testimony of society as a whole.

Not all WILL be saved..
Now you tell me why is that?
Do you believe in predestination of the elect for hell?

My questions are these: If God does not know the future, that would theoretically place God within time and subject to a mandatory time sequence of events.

Eternal Life is defined as without begining and without end. Nothing more, nothing less.

To superimpose ones belief on this simple statement is utter ruin.
To suppose that because the Lord is the eternal life and to superimpose that fact as grounds for being outside of time is utter nonsense!

He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, all fonts flow to Him, just as they all come.

Do we not all stand before Him on Judgement Day?

He then must be said to be bound by and limited within time.

Is He also not bound by His will to remain Righteous and True?

Does He not limit Himself in regards to us daily?!?

But isn't time created? How did God create time if He is within time to start with? How is an eternal God bound by time in your theology? If God cannot see the end from the beginning, we have a big problem with the Book of Revelation, don't we???!!!

No, there is no problem, for who can resist His will?

If God desires to do something, who shall stop Him?

Finally, you stated earlier that God permits evil to take place, but if God can stop it when it does occur, does not God retain an ultimate responsiblity for the moral evil presently occuring? How does open theism deal with this moral dilemma?

I do not know how this open theism deals with anything, all I know is that I commit my cause to Jesus and He gives me answers that I need [not necessarily the ones I require]. I don't know everything, nor do I presume to, but this I know, Jesus became responsable for me. He bore my sins and He set me free.

If I chose to sin, being enlightened, is God then responsable for that choice, and thus that sin?
Did He somehow CAUSE me to sin, did He put a stumbling block before my face to block out the Light of Christ?
Or, rather, was He faithful in leading me in the right way, which I refused, being hardened?
You must answer, not I.

If I may, can I ask you to look at some verses and honestly tell me how they fit into your open theist thought:

Is 46: 9remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

There you have it;

"I" will accomplish all my purpose.
"I" will bring it to pass
"I" will do it.

THAT is how the Prophetic word is fulfilled, it is fulfilled by God Himself, not some mystical dream where He looks into the future and declares, but that He actually gets down there, in the grime and the muck, and DOES it!

He is God, and He can do anything.

Prv 16: 33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

It goes without saying, and indeed is witnessed by further Scripture study;

As per the 'lot cast into the lap';

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 NIV
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 33:6 NIV
I am just like you before God; I too have been taken from clay.


As per the 'decision';

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Proverbs 18:20-21
From the fruit of his mouth a man's stomach is filled; with the harvest from his lips he is satisfied.
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

 

[Tzaousios]

I am not open theist, I am a Christian with a unique perspective on the Godhead, even as you are a Christian with your own unique perspective, yes?

Me, I believe God gives us each a unique perspective soley for the purpose of His Glory. For in not coming together on theological issues, but rather, on Christ, we come soley on the good ground, and not that of presuppositional theories of men, but the foundation of God.

I believe our Lord allows us to see differing aspects of His Glory so that we seek HIM, rather than man.

In other words, God has given every person who can read the Bible for themselves the ability and the right to become their own pope and magisterium?

Why do you think that historical, orthodox theological positions are "presuppositional theories of men" and are therefore useless to professing Christians? It removes the realistic foundation out from under professing orthodox Christians who still struggle as finite beings.

As to your assumption of me being open theist, no, I am not.
I am a Christian who believes the future is open to all possibilities, as you stated, BUT that God is working all things according to HIS will, even as He testifies in Scripture.

How does this clear you of open theism? If anything, it is an attempt to get around it without repudiating it entirely. In other words, you are hedging or wanting "to have your cake and eat it too."

If I chose to sin, being enlightened, is God then responsable for that choice, and thus that sin?
Did He somehow CAUSE me to sin, did He put a stumbling block before my face to block out the Light of Christ?
Or, rather, was He faithful in leading me in the right way, which I refused, being hardened?

Of course, God is not responsible, in the sense that he is an agent or instrument, for the sin under any circumstance. Human beings are the sinful, finite creatures that carry out their own actions, good and bad.

However, as far as God being the efficient cause for everything that happens and using it according to his purpose, that is a different story.

How do you interpret these passages:

Numbers 22:20-22

20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.

Psalm 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

Isaiah 6:9-10

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Isaiah 19:14

14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Isaiah 66:4

4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[ThomasDa]

GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

No, God created PONTENTIAL!
We take that potential and do evil with it;..PERIOD!!

 

[Zeena]

In other words, God has given every person who can read the Bible for themselves the ability and the right to become their own pope and magisterium?

No, He has not given man the ability and the right to become thier own pope and magisterium! For He effectively stands in the way of sinners, to prevent them from harming the helpless. He makes thier cause darkness and sets up barriers in thier own hearts.

It is not of God to Lord it over anyone, as the pope does, as magisteriums do. As, in fact, many on this thread have done in an attempt to make God the author of sin, so that they might be justified!

Why do you think that historical, orthodox theological positions are "presuppositional theories of men" and are therefore useless to professing Christians? It removes the realistic foundation out from under professing orthodox Christians who still struggle as finite beings.

Who says that God as the author of sin is orthodox?!

And yes, some [most] of the things taught by traditional orthodox heirchies are presuppositions too. For people would rather follow what they know, rather than what they do not, and God's ways are the unknowable!

Even what I've received and pondered, I could even go so far as to say, what I believe, are presuppositions. But it is the Lord Who leads us in the good path.

When I woke up today the Lord said to me, Behold I make all things new!
I came into this world from a deep sleep and looked for what was made new, and behold, He said EVERYTHING! This inlcludes any beliefs I might have held onto yesterday, for beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is!

To say I believe in something, rather than Him, is error on my part.
For you to believe that is what I meant, when I did not, is error on yours.
You have presupposed me to be something I'm not, and have inflated the words of my beliefs to mean extreme prejudice against those who believe differently than I, which I do not. All that's needful is given us, why do we strive to tack on more than what is given unless we seek our own glory, rather than His?

How does this clear you of open theism?

Why, in your eyes, do I need to be cleared of this 'open theism'?

If anything, it is an attempt to get around it without repudiating it entirely. In other words, you are hedging or wanting "to have your cake and eat it too."

Open thiesm, according to wiki [yea, I looked it up] is a belief also that the revelation of Jesus Christ is all said and done, I do not believe thus. For I believe there will come a day when I see Him face to face and am with Him forever.

So, according to this wiki, you cannot label me an 'open theist' and even if you did it would not stick, for labels belong to the dimension of the unregenerate, of which I am not. NOW God is doing a new thing, do you not percieve it?

Of course, God is not responsible, in the sense that he is an agent or instrument, for the sin under any circumstance. Human beings are the sinful, finite creatures that carry out their own actions, good and bad.

THAT's RIGHT!

And for anyone to say that God is Living His Holy Life in and through oneself, while he continues in sin, is not only decieving himself, but making Christ the minister of said sin and hindering the message of the gospel!

However, as far as God being the efficient cause for everything that happens and using it according to his purpose, that is a different story.

This is not orthodox.

Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is a direct consequence of the first.[1]
The philosophical treatment of causality extends over millennia. In the Western philosophical tradition, discussion stretches back at least to Aristotle, and the topic remains a staple in contemporary philosophy. Aristotle distinguished between accidental (cause preceding effect) and essential causality (one event seen in two ways). Aristotle's example of essential causality is a builder building a house. This single event can be analyzed into the builder building (cause) and the house being built (effect).[2][unreliable source?] Aristotle also had a theory that answered the question "why?" 4 different ways. The first was material cause, next was formal cause, then efficient cause, and lastly was final cause. These rules are known as "Aristotle's four causes".[3] [4]

Though cause and effect are typically related to events, candidates include objects, processes, properties, variables, facts, and states of affairs; characterizing the causal relationship can be the subject of much debate.





According to Sowa (2000),[5] up until the twentieth century, three assumptions described by Max Born in 1949 were dominant in the definition of causality:

1. "Causality postulates that there are laws by which the occurrence of an entity B of a certain class depends on the occurrence of an entity A of another class, where the word entity means any physical object, phenomenon, situation, or event. A is called the cause, B the effect.
2. "Antecedence postulates that the cause must be prior to, or at least simultaneous with, the effect.
3. "Contiguity postulates that cause and effect must be in spatial contact or connected by a chain of intermediate things in contact." (Born, 1949, as cited in Sowa, 2000)

However, according to Sowa (2000), "relativity and quantum mechanics have forced physicists to abandon these assumptions as exact statements of what happens at the most fundamental levels, but they remain valid at the level of human experience."[5]
In the case of a mis-attribution of a cause to an effect, the event is known as questionable cause.

If you want to come here and spout off your supposed orthodox teachings, expecting me to believe them simply for the reason that you have, and others have, throughout many years, is to ask me to believe in MAN, and not God. SHOW ME where in Scripture does the Lord thus speak, SO THAT I may believe.

What you are effectively advocating here is passivity, and we are not called to passivity. In believing everything that happens is the cause of God, and not rather, the god of this world, is giving license to lie down and die in the face of adversity, and not, as we are exhorted, to wage war on the principalities, powers and wickedness in high places!

Here, visit this thread, and tell me that God is the cause of this man beating his wife, and come back, and tell us it is God's will for this dear sister;

http://www.christianforums.com/t7325168/

Did God allow this to happen, yes He did, for this man's heart was hardened towards Him, and thus his own wife as the fruit of such believing. BUT, did the Lord CAUSE this man to lift a hand against his beloved? NEVER! God is NOT the 'efficient cause' of evil!

He only allows evil until the the harvest, when the evildoers will be taken out from among us and cast in hell forever! Only until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, only until He is satisfied that Christ is amply Glorified by bringing sons to Glory!

How do you interpret these passages:

I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.

I will seek Him in regards to these passages.

In the meantime, what does the Lord says about these;

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Tzaousios]

The post, btw, was directed to DArceri

Yeah, so?

In other words, God has given every person who can read the Bible for themselves the ability and the right to become their own pope and magisterium?

No, He has not given man the ability and the right to become thier own pope and magisterium! For He effectively stands in the way of sinners, to prevent them from harming the helpless. He makes thier cause darkness and sets up barriers in thier own hearts.

It is not of God to Lord it over anyone, as the pope does, as magisteriums do. As, in fact, many on this thread have done in an attempt to make God the author of sin, so that they might be justified!

I am not sure how what you have posted here addresses my comment, but I will answer anyways.

Your comment about God "making their darkness and setting up barriers in their hearts" seems to contradict things you have said earlier. You appeared to be saying that God could not and would not do such a thing because it would somehow "involve" Him in evil in an unbefitting way.

My statement about "pope and magisterium" was not a literal reference to the Roman Catholic institutions of the same name. Rather, I used it to describe the method for interpreting Scripture that you are setting up, namely by rejecting any historical precedent or guideline and substituting some subjective revelation or epiphany in its place.

Why do you think that historical, orthodox theological positions are "presuppositional theories of men" and are therefore useless to professing Christians? It removes the realistic foundation out from under professing orthodox Christians who still struggle as finite beings.

Who says that God as the author of sin is orthodox?!

Um, where did I say anything about God being "the author of sin"? That is a tired old trope that Calvinist-haters throw at people whom they perceive as being Calvinists or holding a more stringent view of God's sovereignty then they hold. Take off the anti-Calvinist blinders for a second.

And yes, some [most] of the things taught by traditional orthodox heirchies are presuppositions too. For people would rather follow what they know, rather than what they do not, and God's ways are the unknowable!

On this side of heaven, occupying sinful, finite bodies of flesh, ALL human beings approach the Biblical texts with presuppositions whether erroneous or not. The question is, what method does one employ in the attempt to arrive at the truth and how objective is it?

While I do agree that God's inner character and ways are absolutely transcendent and unknowable by definition, he has in his grace and mercy given us Scriptural revelation which conveys aspects of himself in our languages and level of understanding through the words of the prophets and God in flesh Jesus Christ. Again, an objective hermeneutic is the key to arriving at the truth.

Even what I've received and pondered, I could even go so far as to say, what I believe, are presuppositions. But it is the Lord Who leads us in the good path.

Yes, but as mediated and checked by the authority of Scripture.

When I woke up today the Lord said to me, Behold I make all things new!
I came into this world from a deep sleep and looked for what was made new, and behold, He said EVERYTHING! This inlcludes any beliefs I might have held onto yesterday, for beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is!

Are you saying that God spoke audibly to you on that morning?

The comment about "beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is" is a vain attempt at detaching yourself from historically-based, objective statements of belief which you believe are "corrupted" in your own subjective determination. In truth, it is these beliefs which have stigmatized yours, rather than the other way around.

For you to believe that is what I meant, when I did not, is error on yours.
You have presupposed me to be something I'm not, and have inflated the words of my beliefs to mean extreme prejudice against those who believe differently than I, which I do not. All that's needful is given us, why do we strive to tack on more than what is given unless we seek our own glory, rather than His?

What else do I have to go by other than your words? I read what you had posted and commented on it. There was no presupposition about you on my part because I did not know you or what you believe before I read the post. I think what I posted struck a chord and you just did not like it. So be it then. There was no inflation or prejudice on my part.

Why, in your eyes, do I need to be cleared of this 'open theism'?

Because it is an unbiblical belief.

Open thiesm, according to wiki [yea, I looked it up] is a belief also that the revelation of Jesus Christ is all said and done, I do not believe thus. For I believe there will come a day when I see Him face to face and am with Him forever.

First of all, Wiki is not a reliable source to be used in serious discussion. It can be changed and edited at will by just about anyone and is not subject to critical peer review. Second of all, it is not defined by what you have said above. It has to do with God's revealed attributes, specifically his omnipotence and omniscience, and wrongful limitations thereof.

So, according to this wiki, you cannot label me an 'open theist' and even if you did it would not stick, for labels belong to the dimension of the unregenerate, of which I am not. NOW God is doing a new thing, do you not percieve it?

"Labels" do not just belong "to the dimension of the unregenerate." Where did you get this idea? If it were not for objective distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy, the heretical issues which faced the early church would not have been identified and stamped out.

Of course I can recognize when God is doing a new thing. But this is done in concert with an objective discernment and reading of Scripture.

However, as far as God being the efficient cause for everything that happens and using it according to his purpose, that is a different story.

This is not orthodox.

How are you in the position to tell me what "is not orthodox" since you have rejected one the primary means by which it is discerned?

As for the Wiki blurb you posted, how does that address the theological and Biblical issue which we are presently discussing?

We are not talking about academic or mundane issues of causality for which we need a philosophical framework to work out. Besides, it does not disprove my Biblical assertion that God can be the efficient cause and man the instrumental or secondary cause of sinful acts without God becoming corrupted or sinful himself.

If you want to come here and spout off your supposed orthodox teachings, expecting me to believe them simply for the reason that you have, and others have, throughout many years, is to ask me to believe in MAN, and not God.

"Spout off?" So I guess you are saying that anything short of agreeing with you and endorsing your own beliefs is unorthodox and should not be posted? That mindset is exactly what I have a problem with because it is subjective on many levels and borders on a theological existentialism.

Also, I do believe the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God. However, I also believe that it was written and compiled by the agency of man in a specific historical context. It was also read and correctly interpreted by the Holy Spirit in a specific historical context. Thus, it does not necessarily follow that it is of man and not of God.

SHOW ME where in Scripture does the Lord thus speak, SO THAT I may believe.

I have showed you plenty of passages from Scripture. What did you do? You ignored them and refused to provide your interpretation or show how they fit into your beliefs.

BUT, did the Lord CAUSE this man to lift a hand against his beloved? NEVER! God is NOT the 'efficient cause' of evil!

Oh really? Do you know what God is going to make of this situation? Did God not cause Joseph's brothers to throw him in a pit and lie to their father about his death?

Genesis 50:20

20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.

I will seek Him in regards to these passages.

Okay, whatever you want to call it. Answers in the night? Please explain this statement.

As far as I am concerned, you have dodged the Scriptures I posted for some suspicious reason. I look forward to see what you have to say about them.

In the meantime, what does the Lord says about these;

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Why are you asking me this? They do not prove that anything I have said is in error and I definitely do not reject them.

As for the passages I posted, they do point out inconsistencies in the position that you have adopted and outlined in this discussion. Once again, I look forward to what you have to say about them:

Numbers 22:20-22

20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, “If the men come to call you, rise and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you—that you shall do.” 21 So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.


Deuteronomy 32:39

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:6-7

6 “The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14

13 Consider the work of God;
For who can make straight what He has made crooked?

Psalm 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate His people,
To deal craftily with His servants.

Isaiah 6:9-10

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Isaiah 19:14

14 The LORD has mingled a perverse spirit in her midst;
And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work,
As a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Isaiah 66:4

4 So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Tzaousios]

Zeena, if you are still following this thread, I am looking forward to your response to my post #176 and your comments on the Scripture passages. Thanks.

 

[Hismessenger]

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

Your comment about God "making their darkness and setting up barriers in their hearts" seems to contradict things you have said earlier. You appeared to be saying that God could not and would not do such a thing because it would somehow "involve" Him in evil in an unbefitting way.

If you think that God destines men to hell, then you go right ahead and keep believing that.

I'm not here to change your mind, nor your heart, merely to state the truth as given me.

My statement about "pope and magisterium" was not a literal reference to the Roman Catholic institutions of the same name. Rather, I used it to describe the method for interpreting Scripture that you are setting up, namely by rejecting any historical precedent or guideline and substituting some subjective revelation or epiphany in its place.

I quoted Scripture, which was not responded to.

Um, where did I say anything about God being "the author of sin"? That is a tired old trope that Calvinist-haters throw at people whom they perceive as being Calvinists or holding a more stringent view of God's sovereignty then they hold. Take off the anti-Calvinist blinders for a second.

You say as much when you say that God creates evil.

On this side of heaven, occupying sinful, finite bodies of flesh, ALL human beings approach the Biblical texts with presuppositions whether erroneous or not. The question is, what method does one employ in the attempt to arrive at the truth and how objective is it?

I did, at one time, but I lay down my pressupositions as Jesus give me better answers.

While I do agree that God's inner character and ways are absolutely transcendent and unknowable by definition, he has in his grace and mercy given us Scriptural revelation which conveys aspects of himself in our languages and level of understanding through the words of the prophets and God in flesh Jesus Christ. Again, an objective hermeneutic is the key to arriving at the truth.

I've quoted plentious Scripture which refutes this erronous teaching of God as the Author [creator] of sin. This I did originally, these are they which have yet to be responded to, which is why I do not respond in kind.

Yes, but as mediated and checked by the authority of Scripture.

AMEN!

Are you saying that God spoke audibly to you on that morning?

Spirit to spirit, is there error in my way?

Job 33:13-14
Why do you complain to him that he answers none of man's words?
For God does speak—now one way, now another— though man may not perceive it.

The comment about "beliefs are not what saves, Jesus is" is a vain attempt at detaching yourself from historically-based, objective statements of belief which you believe are "corrupted" in your own subjective determination. In truth, it is these beliefs which have stigmatized yours, rather than the other way around.

Like I said, and now repeat, if you chose to believe God is capable of unrighteousness, you go right ahead!

I trust God to prove Himself Gloriously HOLY in your sight.

What else do I have to go by other than your words? I read what you had posted and commented on it. There was no presupposition about you on my part because I did not know you or what you believe before I read the post. I think what I posted struck a chord and you just did not like it. So be it then. There was no inflation or prejudice on my part.

Did you not read the earlier posts?

Because it is an unbiblical belief.

Not according to the Scripture quoted earlier, here, how's about post #111, amid the many, in which I quoted Scripture refuting this teaching?

First of all, Wiki is not a reliable source to be used in serious discussion. It can be changed and edited at will by just about anyone and is not subject to critical peer review. Second of all, it is not defined by what you have said above. It has to do with God's revealed attributes, specifically his omnipotence and omniscience, and wrongful limitations thereof.

It is a definative statement, which rarely, if ever, changes.

"Labels" do not just belong "to the dimension of the unregenerate." Where did you get this idea? If it were not for objective distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy, the heretical issues which faced the early church would not have been identified and stamped out.

You are part of a church with man as your head, rather than Christ. Better?

Of course I can recognize when God is doing a new thing. But this is done in concert with an objective discernment and reading of Scripture.

As WELL as the Witness of His Spirit no?

How are you in the position to tell me what "is not orthodox" since you have rejected one the primary means by which it is discerned?

Have I? Or rather, have you?

There's only One Truth..

As for the Wiki blurb you posted, how does that address the theological and Biblical issue which we are presently discussing?

We are not talking about academic or mundane issues of causality for which we need a philosophical framework to work out. Besides, it does not disprove my Biblical assertion that God can be the efficient cause and man the instrumental or secondary cause of sinful acts without God becoming corrupted or sinful himself.

Yes, you are talking of causality.

You are making God out to be the initiating doer of evil!

"Spout off?" So I guess you are saying that anything short of agreeing with you and endorsing your own beliefs is unorthodox and should not be posted? That mindset is exactly what I have a problem with because it is subjective on many levels and borders on a theological existentialism.

Also, I do believe the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God. However, I also believe that it was written and compiled by the agency of man in a specific historical context. It was also read and correctly interpreted by the Holy Spirit in a specific historical context. Thus, it does not necessarily follow that it is of man and not of God.


I have showed you plenty of passages from Scripture. What did you do? You ignored them and refused to provide your interpretation or show how they fit into your beliefs.

As you did with the passages shown you initially. I'm only playing according to the rules YOU have set forth in precedent.. :/

See post 111, for instance.
None of which (Scripture) was ever responded to..

Oh really? Do you know what God is going to make of this situation? Did God not cause Joseph's brothers to throw him in a pit and lie to their father about his death?

No, of course not!

Nor did He direct Pharoph into doing evil!

ANSWER the Scripture posted earlier and you will see this is NOT possible.

FAR be it from God to DO iniquity!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth DO RIGHT?

Okay, whatever you want to call it. Answers in the night? Please explain this statement.

Genesis 46:2
And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

How's this?

Job 33:15-18
For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride, to preserve his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.

Why are you asking me this? They do not prove that anything I have said is in error and I definitely do not reject them.

Then do tell how THESE VERSES fit in with YOUR doctrine?

As for the passages I posted, they do point out inconsistencies in the position that you have adopted and outlined in this discussion. Once again, I look forward to what you have to say about them:

A conversation is a two-way street, no?

 

[Tzaousios]

Your comment about God "making their darkness and setting up barriers in their hearts" seems to contradict things you have said earlier. You appeared to be saying that God could not and would not do such a thing because it would somehow "involve" Him in evil in an unbefitting way.

If you think that God destines men to hell, then you go right ahead and keep believing that.

I'm not here to change your mind, nor your heart, merely to state the truth as given me.

What quote of mine are you referring to? Certainly it is not contained in the one to which you are replying above. I said nothing to the effect that I believe God "destines men to hell." Perhaps you are reading your perception of my theological affiliation into your replies?

I quoted Scripture, which was not responded to.

I was not interested in your particular juxtaposition of Scripture at that point but your methodology. You cannot hope to prove your argument just by posting a couple Scriptural passages if your methodology is faulty.

You say as much when you say that God creates evil.

We have already been through this. I never claimed that God is the author of evil and explained as much using a certain distinction in terms and concepts. As far as "creating evil," I am not sure where you got that from my posts, thus your having to admit that it "sounds like" I said it. Deal with my arguments, please.

On this side of heaven, occupying sinful, finite bodies of flesh, ALL human beings approach the Biblical texts with presuppositions whether erroneous or not. The question is, what method does one employ in the attempt to arrive at the truth and how objective is it?

I did, at one time, but I lay down my pressupositions as Jesus give me better answers.

Please explain this further, what you mean by "I did at one time" and "Jesus give me better answers."

I've quoted plentious Scripture which refutes this erronous teaching of God as the Author [creator] of sin. This I did originally, these are they which have yet to be responded to, which is why I do not respond in kind.

Yes, and this is because I never claimed that God is the "Author" of sin and gave you my argument as to why. So I did respond to them. Perhaps you did not understand and/or like my answer?

Are you saying that God spoke audibly to you on that morning?

Spirit to spirit, is there error in my way?

Job 33:13-14
Why do you complain to him that he answers none of man's words?
For God does speak—now one way, now another— though man may not perceive it.

Please explain further what you mean by "spirit to spirit."

Like I said, and now repeat, if you chose to believe God is capable of unrighteousness, you go right ahead!

I trust God to prove Himself Gloriously HOLY in your sight.

I have said and will repeat that I do NOT believe that God is the author of evil or is capable of unrighteousness.

Indeed, God has shown himself to be holy in my sight. But he does not have to show me this because he is holy by definition.

It is a definative statement, which rarely, if ever, changes.

Nevertheless, I told you why I thought that you incongruously applied this concept from Wikipedia to my argument. Please respond to that specific part of my post.

"Labels" do not just belong "to the dimension of the unregenerate." Where did you get this idea? If it were not for objective distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy, the heretical issues which faced the early church would not have been identified and stamped out.

You are part of a church with man as your head, rather than Christ. Better?

Where did you get this information? I do not remember posting specifically that I am part of a church with a man as a leader who exalts himself above Christ. As for my distinction about labels, and orthodoxy and heresly, it still stands and you have not disproven it.

As WELL as the Witness of His Spirit no?

It depends on what you mean by the "Witness of His Spirit." Please explain what you mean further.

Have I? Or rather, have you?

There's only One Truth..

Indeed, and I have seen a mixture of truth and error in what you have posted. I think that I am in the position of judging heresy and orthodoxy based on the methodology I have described and employed. We are told to test all spirits and cling to the deposit of faith which we have been given.

Yes, you are talking of causality.

You are making God out to be the initiating doer of evil!

No, I am not, and the Wiki blurb you posted does not say that I have done so either.

Once again, I will repeat how I believe God is the first cause and not the author: God can be the efficient cause and man the instrumental or secondary cause of sinful acts without God becoming corrupted or sinful himself.

This follows the Law of Noncontradiction. God can have different ASPECTS of his character but not the same ESSENCE at the same time and in the same place. This is an argument for a theological causality, not a mundane one such as the Wiki blurb describes.

No, of course not!

Nor did He direct Pharoph into doing evil!

ANSWER the Scripture posted earlier and you will see this is NOT possible.

FAR be it from God to DO iniquity!
Shall not the Judge of all the earth DO RIGHT?

If you do not believe that Joseph said this, how do you interpret his words in this passage:

Genesis 50:20

20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

As for the hardening of Pharaoh, I do not see how what you have posted in #111 addresses what God plainly spoke here:

Exodus 9:16 / Romans 9:17

16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

Genesis 46:2
And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

How's this?

Job 33:15-18
For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride, to preserve his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.

Indeed, and God did this at a point in the history of the covenant with Israel when there were no books of the Law to which they could refer for God's expectations and demands. Subsequently, there was always a specific reason for God speaking to the Israelites and he accomplished this through specifically appointed individuals. There was a consistent methodology for delivering the message and for interpreting it.

A conversation is a two-way street, no?

Yes, but you specifically told me that you would study the Scriptures I posted and get back to me. So far you have not gotten back to me on them and seem to be deflecting having to deal with them. What's the problem?

You said:

I do not interpret passages, I seek the Lord, Who gives answers in the night.

I will seek Him in regards to these passages.