GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[squint]

And the ONE, single verse of your supposed Scriptural fact has ten, twenty, even thirty CONTRARY Scripture verses to your ONE faulty interpretation.

Zero of those scriptures eliminate each other. God said He creates evil and none of those cited said He doesn't.

 

[Zeena]

God in the flesh submitted Himself to the power of darkness in the creation and to death.

BLASPHEMY!

Jesus did not submit Himself to Satan!

He submitted Himself unto GOD!

 

[DArceri]

God does not know the future, He knows the HEARTS!

Otherwise there would be no choices, no decisions to make and we'd all just be a buncha puppets!

Sorry, but your argument is lacking on several points. 1st of all, yes man does have the ability to choose, but left to himself, he will always choose in accordance with his own percieved best interest. Only when God reveals Himself to the sinner through illumination of the Holy Spirit, does the person realize that union with God is in fact the most beneficial thing for him to choose. This is the person who perseveres. “For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do".

Secondly, I take it you are an Open Theist, ie. the future is "open" to all possibilities. My questions are these: If God does not know the future, that would theoretically place God within time and subject to a mandatory time sequence of events. He then must be said to be bound by and limited within time. But isn't time created? How did God create time if He is within time to start with? How is an eternal God bound by time in your theology? If God cannot see the end from the beginning, we have a big problem with the Book of Revelation, don't we???!!! Finally, you stated earlier that God permits evil to take place, but if God can stop it when it does occur, does not God retain an ultimate responsiblity for the moral evil presently occuring? How does open theism deal with this moral dilemma?

If I may, can I ask you to look at some verses and honestly tell me how they fit into your open theist thought:

Is 46: 9remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

Prv 16: 33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Lam 3:37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?

 

[squint]

BLASPHEMY!

Jesus did not submit Himself to Satan!

He submitted Himself unto GOD!

You might do well to NOT jump to your OWN false conclusions claiming them to be mine.

He certainly SUBMITTED Himself to THAT EVIL that was in mankind... allowing HIMSELF to be KILLED by that working....in order to FULFILL the scriptures:

John 15:25

But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

By that ACTION Satan SEALED his fate forever...unto eternal elimination.

in reference to:
Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:4

I DIDN'T SAY He submitted to EVIL 'internally.' We all know that SATAN had 'nothing' IN HIM.
Hebrews 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

 

[2 King]

You are welcome to respond to the specific scriptures and presentations in some of the previous posts.

Making declarations is somewhat pointless.

Put the verse into context and you've solved the problem. The context will bring out the meaning of the Hebrew word "rah" better. But you already knew that.

 

[squint]

Put the verse into context and you've solved the problem. The context will bring out the meaning of the Hebrew word "rah" better. But you already knew that.

Is there some valid point in separating out any thing out of the creation of 'all things?'

You do understand that God created 'all things' yet Himself is not any particular 'thing' He created?

The texts depicts in several places that God created all powers. Evil is also depicted as 'a power.' So is 'death.' So is 'sin.'

All powers. All powers are 'created.' There is only ONE creator.

s

 

[PT Calvinist]

Is there some valid point in separating out any thing out of the creation of 'all things?'

You do understand that God created 'all things' yet Himself is not any particular 'thing' He created?

The texts depicts in several places that God created all powers. Evil is also depicted as 'a power.' So is 'death.' So is 'sin.'

All powers. All powers are 'created.' There is only ONE creator.

s

is evil a thing? God cannot go against His own nature as being Good.

 

[squint]

is evil a thing? God cannot go against His own nature as being Good.

Follow the simplicity please.

God can create ANY THING and not BE THAT THING.

Anyone who says that GOD BECOMES the THING He creates is promoting PANTHEISM.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Follow the simplicity please.

God can create ANY THING and not BE THAT THING.

Anyone who says that GOD BECOMES the THING He creates is promoting PANTHEISM.

And what of those who believe God can go against His own nature by creating evil? What do we call those people? Can God create a rock big enough that he can't pick it up?

 

[squint]

And what of those who believe God can go against His own nature by creating evil?

Why would you DEFINE the 'nature of God' by a created THING? Whatever 'thing' that is is assuredly NOT God. When you say it is, you are on the ground of pantheism.

What do we call those people? Can God create a rock big enough that he can't pick it up?

What I say to that matter is when you have all the information, knowledge, power and EVERYTHING that God is and contains, etc etc etc, THEN you could 'logically say' what God can and cannot do. And of course that ain't gonna happen. Only God knows the entirety of what/who HE IS and what HE can do.

Until then those are merely SPECULATIVE matters of limited logic constructs from limited viewers.

The logical point from a theological perspective remains that God can create anything and not 'be that thing.'

s

 

[PT Calvinist]

Why would you DEFINE the 'nature of God' by a created THING? Whatever 'thing' that is is assuredly NOT God. When you say it is, you are on the ground of pantheism.

I happen to be going from a Biblical standpoint. God, throught the Bible, is depicted as pure and does not approve of evil. The Hebrew word (rah) as 2 King said earlier, can mean many things. God does not creat evil in the moral sense, but rather in a way of disaster.

What I say to that matter is when you have all the information, knowledge, power and EVERYTHING that God is and contains, etc etc etc, THEN you could 'logically say' what God can and cannot do. And of course that ain't gonna happen. Only God knows the entirety of what/who HE IS and what HE can do.

Until then those are merely SPECULATIVE matters of limited logic constructs from limited viewers.

The logical point from a theological perspective remains that God can create anything and not 'be that thing.'

That makes total sense. The "We don't know" paradox. But what of the "omnipotent" paradox? He is omnipotent right? Well then according to the way one like you might see things, He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up. But if He can't pick it up, how is He then omnipotent? His omnipotence is part of His nature. God has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.

 

[squint]

I happen to be going from a Biblical standpoint.

Uh, no, pantheism is not a promotion of scripture. Sorry. You certainly have A point of view, that being only yours.

God, throught the Bible, is depicted as pure and does not approve of evil. The Hebrew word (rah) as 2 King said earlier, can mean many things. God does not creat evil in the moral sense, but rather in a way of disaster.

The 'fact' that God created and used evil is quite a well documented fact throughout the text. That much is very obvious.

That makes total sense. The "We don't know" paradox. But what of the "omnipotent" paradox? He is omnipotent right? Well then according to the way one like you might see things, He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up. But if He can't pick it up, how is He then omnipotent?

Like I said, unless we had all the info. such matters are mere limited speculations employing limited logic. IF you had all the info, powers etc etc then you could frame A PERFECTLY LOGICAL position, but that is off the table of availability.

His omnipotence is part of His nature. God has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.

God is NOT nature. You're back to pantheism again. Any given thing can exist as do all things within Omnipresence and be sustained by Omnipotence. None of those works or workings make God any of same.

 

[PT Calvinist]

I didn't say he was nature, i said he has a nature...

 

[squint]

I didn't say he was nature, i said he has a nature...

As only defined, definable and knowable by you and you alone and your observations ONLY, right?

 

[2 King]

As only defined, definable and knowable by you and you alone and your observations ONLY, right?

According to Islam, God CAN do anything...I'm pretty sure all of Biblical Christianity would agree that God cannot violate His own nature.

 

[squint]

According to Islam, God CAN do anything...I'm pretty sure all of Biblical Christianity would agree that God cannot violate His own nature.

That's called an argumentum ad numerum or ad populous that is not only poor communications style, but a logical fallacy to boot.

I am not aware of any 'mass' consensus that you speak of. All understandings of God from any orthodox perspective rightly and quickly tails off into the MYSTERY that God Is and will remain.

There are many speculations of what His Nature Is or May be but none a one of us can say entirely or in full what that might be or consist of.

And I certainly can't rule out Gods creation of the power of EVIL when many scriptures outright state that God created ALL POWERS and ALL THINGS. Slicing out EVIL to uphold some phony view of Gods Nature really doesn't appear to do much good in the face of direct scriptural evidences to the contrary.

s

 

[PT Calvinist]

Wow i did some searching on this thread topic and what do you know.. I found this: http://www.christianforums.com/t7378777/

Read all of the opening post, he knows what he's talking about. It's no mystery and this had been done to death to ad nauseum

 

[squint]

Wow i did some searching on this thread topic and what do you know.. I found this: http://www.christianforums.com/t7378777/

Read all of the opening post, he knows what he's talking about. It's no mystery and this had been done to death to ad nauseum

the only thing that post displayed was a common tactic where IF the KJV outright contradicts your position, you switch versions to soften the death blow.

Not to mention it's filled with unsubstantiated assertions that have a very hard time holding up under any fair measure of scrutiny.

 

[2 King]

I totally forgot i had made that thread...

And thanks squint for your critique...are you a KJV onlyist or something?

 

[squint]

I totally forgot i had made that thread...

And thanks squint for your critique...are you a KJV onlyist or something?

Nah. Just learned how to read when I was about 6 or so.

Most 'group think' falls along the same certain paths that are fed to them on this matter. They uphold constructs to maintain their positions. Doesn't equate to those positions making sense.