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GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

Hismessenger

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The evil doesn't create confusion for God. It is only man who is confused. God uses the evil for His purpose. The evil is created, for if and when God ends the tribulation, evil will no longer exist for the creation will be complete in itself.


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Zeena

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Do adults, when they are old enough to both disinguish and chose between right and wrong, have any reflection on thier law-abiding parents?

God created both men and angels with the option to CHOSE!
We CHOSE our beds, and we must lie in them. God is not the FIRST CAUSE of MY rebellion! :p

Tell us, are YOU responsable for YOUR sins, or is God the 'first cause'?

There is no such thing as repentance without ownership! =P
 
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Breckmin

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Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.


All powerful is all "logically" powerful. There is an inexactism in the English
word "all" encompassing things which are self-contradictory or simply "not
logical." IOW, if it is illogical to be able to create finite beings that are
"omniscient" then this is something God did not or will not do.

Certain knowledge of consequences has to be observed in others and
LEARNED. Just like babies learn...certain knowledge about good and evil
must be learned.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be.


Evil is a potential bi-product of choice. There are systematic theologians
like Peter Kreeft who have dealt with this. God did NOT create evil. He
created "choice" so that LOVE could exist. You can't say yes if you can't
say "no." Evil/disobedience exists so that LOVE can exist in reality.

Love is greater than evil...that is why Love exists at the cost of evil (the
potential bi-product of choice).

Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God).


God is infinite power and the devil and his demons are finite power....but
it is important to note that Good and Evil are NOT exact opposites.

Good is THE STANDARD by which evil is judged...evil is NOT a standard by
which to judge Good. Thomas Aquinas made this argument years ago in
response to the Euthyphro Dilemma and it still stands. Good is defined by
God's Nature and by His Will as Owner and Creator of the universe...
God does NOT create both good and "sin" - such an assertion would be
a heresy of dualism. God is Holy and in Him there is NO evil whatsoever.
He is PERFECTLY GOOD...God may bring judgement and create "circumstances"
of evil (calamity - "ro" in the Hebrew") but God did NOT create original
evil. Such would be illogical and heresy.

Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer.

You confuse being created "good" (with choice which has a potential
for illogical disobedience against a Creator you should always obey)
with PERFECT.

How can Lucifer be created "perfect" if he doesn't know God? If he
doesn't know it is logical to always LOVE God? If he doesn't understand
"humility?"

Lucifer was NOT perfect because he did not understand the cosmic
importance and logic of always being "humble" and that he was the
top angel by God's hand...not his own pride.

(rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible!


You confuse "good" with CHOICE with perfection and imperfection which
requires knowledge that will be/must be learned. The angels who did NOT
follow satan LEARNED...they learned about eternal separation and judgement.
They learned about hell, etc. We who are redeemed will have a tremendous
love for God because we will be "forgiven" of MUCH.

God did NOT creat Adam as so called "perfect" right from the start...
"How can Adam be PERFECT IF he doesn't know how much God loves
him? If he doesn't know the quality of God's Self-Sacrificing LOVE????

God is PERFECTING us now..for all of eternity by dealing with the
PROBLEM OF EVIL...this is the "real" problem of evil...NOT in just
explaining it...but in being DELIVERED from it so that we don't fall
prey to it by starting with a heaven first where God's children whom
He loves incredibly do not know God's love for them..NOR do they
understand God is good nor do they understand the consequences
and the illogic of evil (disobedience) or the illogic of not trusting God.

 
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Breckmin

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Even men never quarrel with their tools!
Perhaps this is because our tools do not have "choices" as to be able to
rebel against us...nor will they ever be able to LOVE us.


We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

The only reason free will doesn't exist with humans right now is because
our "will" is tied to a sin nature. Once we are free from the ball and chain
of the flesh...the spirit that is willing will finally be able to obey God for
all of eternity....Two reasons: Motive (Love) and Knowledge (what we
are learning in this temporary creation about evil and its eternal consequences).

When the Holy Spirit transforms us into glorified bodies to be like Christ
we will finally be FREE from the bondage of sin and we will do what IS
LOGICAL to do...Worship God! Praise Him! Glorify Him! ALWAYS OBEY
Him! We will be free to do this forever...because of His Grace. God and
God Alone has dealt with the problem of evil by becoming a Man and
providing the Perfect Sacrifice and Atonement for sin.

Just because God is beyond the limitations of time and space and
already exists in eternal infinite heaven and earth...does NOT mean
we will not be making choices.

We WILL be making choices...but we will be making the RIGHT choices
always. God's knowledge of our choices does not mean that we did
not WILL them...or make them...or decide them.

If there was no will then we could NOT Love God...because we
wouldn't be able to agree with Him. Love requires agreement. You
can't agree if you can't disagree. God's omniscience of our future
agreements does NOT mean they don't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan.

Just because God knows what Lucifer will choose does not mean
that Lucifer has no choice. Lucifer's choice was a real choice
and God's plan was to judge him for this real choice.

God designed both good and evil,

The problem I have is with the use of your word "design." If you said
God created choice so that there could be LOVE and as a result choice
itself created a potential bi-product for disobedience...THEN I could
agree with you...but God does NOT create "sin." This is the result of
choice.



he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.
This fails to understand the WILL involved in making choices. Choices
involve both MOTIVE and knowledge. Without a motive like LOVE and
without the knowledge of humility you will not make good choices.
Lucifer was "blameless in his ways" until unrighteousness was found
in him. God designed him to be "blameless" at the point of creation...
it was his own pride instead of humility that was his downfall. IOW -
his choice as being of volition.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

From my perspective you are over-simplifying roles of those who have
choices. I may go into a detailed interpretation of allegory and anthropo-
morphic understandings by Samuel, Job and Moses/Aaron/Joshua....but
it is very dangerous to accuse God of evil without a better understanding
of these contexts and what is being communicated here regarding the
Perfect Word of God that is contained in the text.

I would say that "satan makes choices" which end up being part of
God's overall plan...but that doesn't mean that these are not his choices.
IN FACT...often God is wrongfully blamed for the works of the devil...

Often.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...

Case in point.

Balance?

No.

God is DEALING WITH the problem of evil for all of eternity so that
it will have no impact on His adopted children...God is not willing to
lose ANY - not one of - His children whom He loves with an Incredible
relationship of Love....We are part of the bride of Christ...and no part
of the bride of Christ will be lost in eternity because of a lack of knowledge
about evil...or because of a lack of faith to always trust and obey
God...

There is NO balace because good and evil are NOT exact opposites.
Good is the STANDARD...evil is what falls short.

Good is LOGICAL...It is always logical to obey God...Evil is that
which is cosmically illogical to DO.


just the way he created light n darkness,
Yet God is light and in Him there is NO darkness at all!

pain n pleasure,
Contrasts that are VERY important to our eternal knowledge.
Yes.....salvation and condemnation..love and indifference....hunger
and satisfaction....obedience and disobedience...faith/trust vs. disbelief.
etc.

Very important in understanding why suffering has to exist for our learning.

flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....
the savagery of death and pain verses the survival of life.... all part
of teaching us about sin and its eternal consequences...(death for
the animal is eternal and final).

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

No one would claim "had nothing to do with."

First,
certainly God knew about evil and its consequences before He created..
so evil existed as a potential or a concept before there was any choice
of a finite being. God knew it would occur if He created beings capable
of loving Him or agreeing with Him....but that doesn't mean that God
directly created it.

You can create "thoughts" from your own mind right now...in fact..
every time you sin this is something YOU do.. it is your choice...

Unless there is "choice" there is NO sin... that is what you do not
appear to understand. God created "choice" so that we could LOVE
Him...He created us in His Image according to His Likeness as eternal
beings who could "choose."

Now we need to learn to always choose correctly...that is what we
are learning...and when we LOVE Him because of His Grace and His
Grace alone...we have the motivation to always obey Him to add to
our eternal knowledge.

God is dealing with the problem of evil right now in this temporary
creation for all of eternity...The greatest way He dealt with it was
to become a Man and atone for (pay for) our sins (our evil) for all
of eternity so that we can fellowship with Him.

God did not create sin....He created choice so that we can LOVE
Him. Evil unfortunately exists so that LOVE can exist. Evil must
be dealt with. God was not willing to lose ANY of us....His GRACE
is INCREDIBLE!!!
 
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Hismessenger

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So if choice is a part of the equation for Satan, why is it that He can't choose to repent of his evil. The truth is He is devoid of the light of understanding which is in Christ Jesus. He can't choose to change because he has no choice but to fulfill His purpose. That is why when He was contesting with Gabriel for Moses body, Gabriel rebuked Him in the name of the Father. He knew what Satan doesn't and can't. The word says pre-adventure that God gives them understanding to repent. Evil cannot exist outside of the creation therefore it is part of the creation thus a created thing.

How did the iniquity get into Satan if He was created perfect and knew God as the chief Angel. He was created perfect for God's purpose which was to rebel and then believe that He can fight with and defeat God. An Omnipotent God knew what He was about when He ordered the creation and He is in charge of all things ordered in His creation for His purpose.

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Zeena

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Here is the article, in full, I desired you to read;
The Oberlin Evangelist.
[SIZE=+2]June 20, 1855[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]GOD HAS NO PLEASURE [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]IN THE SINNER'S DEATH[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]by PRESIDENT FINNEY[/SIZE] Reported by the Editor

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore, turn yourselves, and live ye."--Ezek. 18:23, 32.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"--Ezek. 33:11.
In speaking upon these texts, I am to show,
1. What this death is not;
2. What it is;
3. Why God has no pleasure in it;
4. Why he does not prevent it;
5. The only way in which he can prevent it.

1. The death spoken of in our texts cannot be that of the body. "It is appointed to all men once to die, and after this the judgment." I need not say that men die a physical death none the less surely because they turn to God and live.
This cannot mean spiritual death either, for this death is nothing else than a sinful state of mind--a fixed habit and condition of sinning. If this had been the sense of the term death in these passages, they should have read--Why are ye already dead?--not, Why will ye die? The death referred to is manifestly an event yet future.

2. Positively, this death must be the opposite of that life which they would have if they would turn from their evil ways. Throughout the Bible we are given to understand that this is eternal life--life in the sense of real blessedness. By the terms, death, and life, when used of the final rewards of the wicked and of the righteous, the Bible does not mean annihilation and existence. It does not teach that one class shall cease to exist and the other shall simply continue to exist; but most obviously implies that both alike have an immortal existence, which existence, however, is, in the one case, infinite misery; in the other, infinite blessedness.

3. God has no pleasure in the death of the sinner. He avers this, and even takes his solemn oath of it. Surely, it must have been his intention to make himself believed; and certainly he ought to be believed. "When he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself." Such "an oath for confirmation should be an end to all strife" of conflicting opinions.

It is contrary to his very nature that he should take pleasure in the sinner's death. Indeed, such is the nature of all moral beings that none of them can take pleasure in the misery of others, in itself considered. If any of them could, then might devils in hell find happiness in the misery of those whom they have brought into that place of torment. But the very laws of moral nature are such, that it is painful to witness misery. Even the sufferings of the wicked in hell only aggravate, instead of lessening, the misery of the devil. He did not entice them there to enjoy their misery, but to vent his selfish spite against God. Yet, as always must happen, selfishness punishes itself, and the very thing Satan has done out of selfish hatred of God, will only augment his own eternal anguish. It is intrinsically contrary to the moral nature of any moral agent to enjoy the spectacle of suffering, apart from any other collateral source of enjoyment.

On still higher grounds is it contrary to God's nature that he should take pleasure in the sinner's death, for his benevolence forbids it. He takes infinite delight in the happiness of his creatures, and, therefore, cannot take delight in their misery--in itself considered.

It is abundantly manifest that God loves sinners with the tenderest compassion. He pities them. So his word and his nature conspire to show. Christ manifested this towards the wicked Jews in most affecting words and even with tears, when he beheld that doomed city and wept over it, saying --"If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things that belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes."
No doubt God will pity sinners in hell forever. He has given the highest evidence that he loves sinners. Think how long he spares them to live in their sins; at how great a sacrifice he sent his Son to die for them, even while they were yet enemies. What proof of love can be greater that this?

It must be that God regards the death of the wicked as a great evil in itself, for it surely is so, and he must regard things as they are, and according to truth. Misery is intrinsically a great evil in itself, and it must seem to him to be so. Nay, more; it must seem a greater evil to him than it can to you or to me, or to any other being besides himself, in the universe. He never could have done what he has to save men if he had not viewed it so.

Again, God can have no pleasure in the sinner's death, because, after the penalty is inflicted, he can show the sinner no more favor forever. Under any efficient administration, after the authorities have passed the sentence of the law, they must not retract. The support of government forbids it. There could be no force in penalty, and no influence in law, if its penalties could be lightly set aside, or could be set aside for any other grounds that such as would amply sustain the dignity and the principles of the administration. Hence, after God has taken the sinner's life, in the sense of our text, he can show him no more favor or mercy forever. This must be a sore trial to his feelings, mercy is so much his delight.

Sinners have had all their good things in this life. So Christ distinctly taught in the account he gives of the scenes after death, in the case of the rich man and Lazarus. He represents Abraham as saying to the rich man "Son, remember that thou, in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things." This, you will bear in mind, was said in answer to his earnest entreaty that Lazarus might be sent to him and might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue, for, said he, "I am tormented in this flame." To this Abraham replied, "Son, remember that thou, in thy life time, receivedst thy good things." It is affecting to think that he had exhausted all his good things so utterly that not one drop of water remained to be given him now--not a drop! It must be greatly trying to God's feelings, after having so much enjoyed doing good to even sinners in this world, that, after death he can do them no more good forever! Yet this is plainly the view which Christ gives of the case. It is the sinner's relations to God's government that preclude so utterly all further manifestation of mercy. He stands before that government in the relation of an enemy, one whom that government must punish, as it would protect the rights and welfare of myriads who depend on it for their happiness. It is truly an awful thought that the sinner must suffer so--so intensely and without the least possibility of mitigation forever; and that God, when the sinner cries for one drop of water, must forever reply--No, NO, I have done you all the good I ever can do. You have had all your good things, even to the last drop of water!

Another reason why God can have no pleasure in the death of sinners is, that their depravity is henceforth unrestrained. To see this working itself out intensely and without restraint, as long as they exist, is sad indeed. Yet so it must be. God has done all he wisely could do to restrain it while yet they lived on the earth, and under all his efforts, it only waxed worse and worse. Now, therefore, he desists from all further efforts forever.

God can take no pleasure in the death of sinners, because, henceforward, their sufferings must be unmitigated and endless. Can God have any pleasure at all in this? What an everlasting accumulation of woe! Sorrow upon sorrow, swelling and expanding, deepening and strengthening, beyond all our powers of estimation or expression;--verily God can take no pleasure in this, and well does he take his solemn oath to this effect--"As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure at all in the death of the wicked.["]

4. Why then, I am next to ask, does he not prevent it?
The answer in one word is, because he cannot and yet be good. In fact, if God could wisely prevent it, he would have done so; else he could not be a good being. What wisdom allows to be done for the relief or prevention of suffering, love requires--else he forfeits his claim to goodness. In order to give virtue its utmost scope for development, moral agents are left free to obey or disobey, and then take the consequences. We cannot see how else a really moral government could be administered. Besides, the fact that God does govern thus, shows what he can wisely do, and all that he can wisely do. For it must be that God acts in accordance with his own sense of what is wise and good;--else he is not wise and good, for to have wisdom and yet not act according to its dictates, is by no means to be wise. So also, to claim to be good, and yet not act according to goodness, is an absurd claim. Hence, if God is really wise and good, we know that all his acts must be in harmony with his own ideas of what is wise and good under the circumstances of every case. Hence, nothing that ever occurs under his government can be wisely prevented. If it could be, he would prevent it. No improvement can be made in his actual administration. You cannot suppose it to be changed for the better.

Hence, God cannot deal with sinners otherwise than he has without violating his own sense of what is wise and good.
Again, the death that sinners die, though so great an evil, is yet a less evil than any change in his government which might be necessary in order to prevent it. For example, it may be said that God could annihilate moral agents, instead of punishing them in hell eternally. To this, I answer, if this were a better way God would certainly have adopted it. Hence, we are driven to the conclusion that it is a less evil to let his government go on, and let penalty take its course. In fact, to annihilate moral agents, for their sin, instead of punishing them in hell, would be to abandon the idea of moral government, administered under law, by rewards and penalties. It would amount to an acknowledgment of a failure under this system.

Again, God knows he can make a good use of the sinner's death. He can turn it to good purpose. Such a manifestation before the universe of the terrible evil of sin, may be indispensable to the best interests of the masses--being the very influence they need to preserve them from falling themselves into sin. Under a government where so much depends upon developing and making all realize the idea of justice, what finite mind can fully estimate the useful results God may educe from the eternal death of sinners? This glorious idea of justice is manifestly most vital to a system of moral agents. Its importance to the universe is such as must greatly over-balance all the evil that can accrue from the punishment of sin.
 
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Zeena

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Part two;

These propositions I take to be altogether self-evident--so much so, that none who understand the meaning of the terms, can deny them. If you admit the attributes of God, all the rest follows by the strictest logical necessity. If God is admitted to be holy, just, wise and good, then he must govern moral agents as he does;--and must punish as he does all whom he cannot by any safe means reclaim to obedience and induce to accept of pardon.

5. How can the death of sinners be avoided? In no way that is inconsistent with the nature and character of God, or with his relations to his creatures. This is plain. You cannot expect that God will act inconsistently with his own attributes of character in order to save sinners from death, or that he will suffer any thing to be done that is thus inconsistent. Nothing can he either do or suffer to be done that shall interfere with the best interests of his government. It were the merest folly to expect this. Hence, it is plain that if the sinner would be saved at all, he must turn from his evil ways. He cannot expect God to turn from his good ways and ought not to desire it. Hence, the only alternative is--repent, or die. Every sinner must cease to sin and must meet God's conditions of life, or he must take death as his certain doom. To turn from his sin is the naturally necessary condition of being saved from eternal death. Who can doubt this? Who can rationally suppose that any sinner can possibly escape death unless he turns from his sins to God?
That this is the only possible way of life is further evident from the fact that sinners, continuing in their sins, must be wretched from the very nature of sin. The death of the body removes them from all physical enjoyment. Sin itself will then be left to bring forth its legitimate fruits of disquiet, trouble, remorse of conscience;--so that even if there were no punitive inflictions from God, and no misery to be endured beyond the natural consequences of sin, the wicked would be only wretched.

But, let it be considered, we cannot set aside the governmental infliction of suffering, for this is a necessity of government that it should have a penalty attached to the violation of its laws, and should inflict this penalty. No government can exist which does not punish when justice demands it. Its authority is at once gone, and it ceases to be any government at all. Hence, God must punish as long as the sinner refuses to turn.
 
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Zeena

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Remarks;

REMARKS.1. The goodness of God is no argument against the punishment of sin, but the very reverse of this;--it is a reason why sin should be punished and will be. Men may say that God is too good to punish sin and may profess to hold that his goodness explodes the doctrine of future punishment. But really not one of these men is ever afraid that God will be unjust. Yet they fear him. And the thing they at heart fear is that he is good and too good to let sin pass unpunished. They are afraid he is good, and so good, that he cannot fail to punish sin.

2. Some will ask--Will not the great misery of sinners in hell abridge God's happiness? I answer no. God has done all he can wisely do to save them. So he solemnly avers;-- "What more could I have done to my vineyard that I have not done in it?" Why, then, should he be unhappy in the death of sinners?

3. Having done all he wisely could, he will be content with this. To do the best and the utmost that infinite love and power can do, satisfies him, and he will not be restive and uneasy, so long as this conviction reposes on his bosom.

4. He will rejoice in the realization of the great idea of justice, and in the results of its manifestation before all finite minds. He does not rejoice in the misery, but does rejoice in the other results which accrue from the sinner's death. He rejoices that the great idea of justice is brought out before the universe so that they shall see what sin is, and what an exceedingly bitter thing it is to rebel against God and goodness.

God will rejoice none the less really in this immense good resulting from punishment, because of the conditions under which it is realized. It costs something to develop the great idea of justice;--it necessarily must; it always does in any government. But the results are cheap even at such a cost. Hence, God rejoices in the use he can make of the sinner's death. Why should he not? He will be satisfied with himself in view of all he has done, and satisfied with the results as a whole. Beholding them all he will say as of his original creation--all very good. There are indeed incidental evils, but the good so indefinitely overbalances the evil that he cannot but be satisfied.
The death of the wicked will not abate the happiness of heaven. They will say that it could not have been wisely avoided. They know that every sinner richly deserves all the punishment he receives, and hence they will be content. They will not rejoice in the suffering, but will rejoice in the results of glory to God, stability to his throne--good influence over all the unfallen. According to the scriptures, they shout, Alleuia[sic.-Ed.], as they see the smoke of their torment ascend up forever and ever.

There is a moral beauty in the display of justice and holiness that will enrapture all the inhabitants of heaven. It will seem to them so infinitely fit and right and wise that God should reign and should sustain his law by means of penalty, so as to secure the highest possible moral power to promote holiness and deter from sin;--how can they do otherwise than acquiesce and even rejoice? But they discriminate--as we also should--between rejoicing in misery and rejoicing in its results. They rejoice, not in the misery, but in those glorious results which are so signally brought out before the universe.
It will be seen in heaven and felt throughout all eternity that God could have done no other way, wisely, than to punish sinners as he does. Hence, there will be no complaining.

Their sense of the wrong and mischief of sin is so just and so deep, and their sense of its ill-desert, also, will be so intense, that it will not abate from the eternal calmness of their souls to witness the execution of the law.
They will also see that it is the least of two evils--a less evil than to use any other means, possible to God, such, for example, as annihilating the wicked. Hence, they will not regret that God should do the best he can. Any change that should set aside punishment for actual sin would only be a greater evil than the punishment it sets aside, and hence they could not desire it. They will always see that a good use is made of punishment, and that positive good is educed from it. Just as we see that good use is made of the gallows in civil government. It is made conducive to the greater influence of the law to deter men from crime. Life is rendered more secure, and thus every important interest of life is promoted.

Here it should be borne in mind that it is not the object of government to do good to the criminal who is executed. In capital executions its only object is to do justice to the government. Punishment never has for its object to do good to the criminal. In so far forth as it is punishment, it has no aim specially towards the criminal, only to make of him an example for the good of the government and of the governed. That which aims at the good of the criminal is discipline. In this world God is administering discipline towards all sinners, and even towards his own children when they sin. In the next world all his treatment of the wicked will be penal, none of it disciplinary.

It is true that in human government, punishment and discipline are often blended, as in State's prison, where the criminal is undergoing the penal sentence of law, and yet the law also aims at his good, using means so far as may be for his correction of life and manners. But in capital executions all idea of discipline is dropped--especially it is so after the fatal hour has come. After that hour, government does all it can by delay of execution, to impel the sinner to prepare to meet his God. Persons often confound discipline and punishment, failing to make those essential discriminations to which I have now adverted. It is important to notice distinctly that all those features in God's administration towards sinners which contemplate their good are discipline, not punishment.

It is a great thing under God's government to execute his law. This is immensely important in its bearings upon the sentiments and feelings of moral agents, and upon their continued obedience. It is especially in this administration of God's law that they see God revealed and learn to regard him as the great Father of his creatures, evermore watchful to secure their highest obedience and blessedness. This execution of law is indeed done at a great expense of suffering to the criminal; but the fact that they all deserve it--that there is no other way of sustaining law and its influence, and that an indefinitely great amount of good results from it,--these facts conspire to hush every murmur and will by no means allow the blessedness of heaven to be interrupted by the execution of law on the wicked.

God will make sinners very useful in life and in death; in this world and in the next. They do not mean it; they mean only evil; but God means all the good, and will take care to insure it. He can over-rule their sin so as to bring out great good from it, all along through the whole course of their existence. He will so control it that they shall not have lived in vain; so that they shall not die in vain, and shall not make their bed in hell forever, in vain. No thanks to them. They have done nothing meritorious. No thanks to Satan that he laid the corner-stone of human salvation when he tempted Judas to betray Jesus, that he might be put out of the way. --God's plans went too deep for Satan; for, while Satan thought to frustrate those plans, he only fulfilled them. He did not understand God's scheme for saving sinners, else he had not taken a step so directly adapted to promote it. So always, God lays his plans too deep for sinners. They try to frustrate God's plans, but to their confusion, at length find that they only promoted those plans the more. It was said in reference to the plans laid by Joseph's brethren,--Ye meant it for evil, but God meant it for good, to save many people alive. God suffered their plans to go forward and seem to be fully executed; but then he put forth his hand and turned the whole to the utmost good. So God is wont to do in regard to the plans of the wicked.

But it is time that I should present distinctly before you and press on your immediate regard the great question of my text,--"Why will ye die?" To all who have not yet turned from your sins, God makes this earnest appeal. Fain would he know of you why it is that you will die. What answer will you give to this appeal?--What can you say? That there is no help for you, and therefore you must die? But that is not true, for glorious help is laid on one who is mighty to save.

Will you insist that there is none to pity you? That too, is utterly false. Does not the great God pity you? And Jesus Christ too; and every angel in heaven? And indeed all the holy in God's universe?

Or will you say, there is no mercy for me? That also is alike false. There has been most abundant mercy shown you in the gospel. Nothing can exceed that mercy and compassion; and even to-day, after so long an abuse of it, you may perhaps yet find it waiting to bless you.

Or will you say--I can't help myself? How can I turn to God? Doubtless you think you can turn at any time, or you would not so long have put it over to a convenient season. You intend at some time to turn to God; but when? Perhaps when it shall be forever too late! One day, or perhaps only one hour, too late!

I have perhaps mentioned in the hearing of some of you the case of a young man whose converted sister earnestly besought him to repent, and come at once to Christ. He put her off; she still entreated. Especially she pressed him one Sabbath, and felt that she could not be denied. At length, as he could not well do less, he said to her--I have to make a short journey on Monday, and shall return on Tuesday; when this is over, I will attend to it. On Wednesday I promise you, I will devote myself to this work. Thus he promised. Monday came, he started on horseback to accomplish his business and get all things ready to turn to the Lord. God had done waiting on him! He was thrown from his horse, brought home a corpse, and on Wednesday, his set day for repentance, his funeral was attended by sad friends, and his body committed to the grave. Alas, who shall give the history of the spirit that God summoned so fearfully away?

Many cases of a similar character I have met with, painfully showing that God is not well pleased that sinners should deliberately set aside his proposed time and adopt their own. I once heard a young lady say that she meant to be converted just before she graduated. In fact she had her plans laid very definitely. On the Sabbath before commencement, she was to unite with the church and sit down with them to the table of the Lord. See there! how she proposed to take her own course and set aside God's earnest call to repent now! But God will surely have his way and will as surely defeat your plans. You cannot have your way against God, labor for it ever so much. It would be wrong for God to endorse your plans when they designedly disown his, and you ought not to wish him to do so. You ought rather to say--Lord, I do not wish thee to come over to my wicked schemes. Let thy perfect will be done! God forbid that I should die, if he has no pleasure in it. If thou, O God, hast no pleasure at all in my death, why should I have? Does not God know how awful a thing it is to die eternally?

Do you think, sinner, that God means to trifle with you? Ye who say that there is no danger of dying eternally for sin--say how is this,--that God should so solemnly ask you why you will die and under his solemn oath affirm that he has no pleasure in your death? Does God do all this to frighten you, when, as you insinuate, there is really no death to fear? Is the great God deceiving you, or trying to disturb you with needless alarms? Is it not rather the case that you are deceiving yourself with hopes that are baseless and that must vanish away like the giving up of the ghost?

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Hismessenger

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Someone else's words. Ask the Holy Spirit and see what truth He shows you of an omnipotent God. Man seems to think that God is dependent upon what we think in order to do the things that He has already done before we were ever here to make any decisions or anything else. If you can't accept an all powerful God who runs this creation as he has ordered it, it makes no difference to Him. It's still going to go His way.

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Breckmin

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inclusive of "choice."
So if choice is a part of the equation for Satan, why is it that He can't choose to repent of his evil.

He has been judged already and there is no salvation for him. The Cross
of Jesus is open to humans created in the Image of God before they die
and are judged.

The truth is He is devoid of the light of understanding which is in Christ Jesus. He can't choose to change because he has no choice but to fulfill His purpose.

He makes choices on a second by second basis. He is an enemy of God
and his DESIRE is to make evil choices. He WILL NOT change because
he has already been judged. He is allowed to test and torment those
of us to see if we truly love God. He has other purposes as well...but
he CHOOSES these...the same way a criminal chooses to intentionally
be evil and hurt people for fun...for sport...for mockery...for torment.

That is why when He was contesting with Gabriel for Moses body, Gabriel rebuked Him in the name of the Father. He knew what Satan doesn't and can't. The word says pre-adventure that God gives them understanding to repent. Evil cannot exist outside of the creation therefore it is part of the creation thus a created thing.

Not only is evil not created by being a byproduct of choice...but time
and 3 dimensional spatial existence are also both INFINITE and there is
no need for their creation. If you have the false view that time and
space needed to somehow be "created" instead of become effectual...
then this will lead you to all sorts of false conclusions.

Evil is NOT directly "created" by God. God created beings of volition
(capable of CHOICE) so that true LOVE could exist. In doing so..evil
is a potential byproduct as soon as someone "chooses" to disobey
either out of ignorance or lack of faith or pride, etc. Sin is a choice
that you make that is a trangression against the Holy Creator of the
universe. This is where evil comes from...from bad choices...from
choices that are against trusting God or obeying God or against what
God intended.

God did NOT directly create evil. That is a hyper calvinists' misconception.

How did the iniquity get into Satan if He was created perfect and knew God as the chief Angel.

"Blameless in his ways" does NOT equal perfect. Perfect would have had
the absolute knowledge of HUMILITY...which we will have in heaven.

He was created perfect for God's purpose which was to rebel and then believe that He can fight with and defeat God.

God is perfect...satan is not...neither was he perfect when he was lucifer.
He was created "without sin" or "without evil" just as Adam was. But
lucifer's sin was a sin of pride and Adam's sin was a LACK OF TRUST or
lack of faith for God to redeem his love partner (wife). Adam's lack of
faith is very important to understand in its role of the fall of the human
race.

An Omnipotent God knew what He was about when He ordered the creation and He is in charge of all things ordered in His creation for His purpose.

An Omniscient God knew (always knows) that Lucifer would make his
bad choice and take a third of the angels with him. This knowledge
does NOT remove their absolute choices NOR does it remove their
responsibility for their choices. Knowledge of the outcome of a
choice does NOT mean there is no choice... neither does it mean
that the choice can not be included in a logical plan for the universe
which contains an "actual" infinite set of circumstances...in which there
is INDEED choice.
 
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Hismessenger

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Eze 28:15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

So now explain to me how an all knowing God did not see the iniquity which was in Lucifer and how did it get there. Was it the big bang theory or it just sprang up from the nothingness. You have to see and accept the truth. Nothing can just spring up in God's creation for it has to be sustained by Him in order for it to exist. Is that simple enough or is there a but? Can the apple tree produce oranges. Can the perfect ways all of a sudden become corrupt. What were the influences and where did they come from and why?

If you can answer that then we don't need the Holy Spirit to guide us into ALL TRUTH.

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Zeena

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Nothing can just spring up in God's creation for it has to be sustained by Him in order for it to exist.
This teaching is directly contradicted by Scripture;

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, Neither will he uphold the evil-doers.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Is that simple enough or is there a but? Can the apple tree produce oranges.
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

James 3:10-12
Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Romans 3:7-8
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

John 15:4
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Romans 2:9-11
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Deuteronomy 23:2
A bastard shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of Jehovah.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Can the perfect ways all of a sudden become corrupt.
Ezekiel 28:15-16
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
What were the influences and where did they come from and why?
Ezekiel 28:17-19
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
 
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Zeena

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1 John 4:6-8
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
 
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Breckmin

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Ezekial 28:15 "You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

This is an English translation of a Hebrew phrase "thmin-athe-b·drki·k"
which is addressing "ways" NOT the essence of ontological existence.

You could translate it literally "flawless you - in ways of you" which is
the same thing as saying "you never sinned in your ways" or "you were
perfect in your behavior" - BUT (and you are correct....I will bring in a
conjunction of contrast here) this doesn't mean lucifer was perfect...just
because he was "flawless in his WAYS" or "flawless in his ACTIONS" in
that he had not yet sinned.....doesn't mean he was somehow perfect
when it comes to knowledge, love and relationship.

He obviously was not in touch with the concept of LOGICAL humility
that all finite created beings should have before an INFINITE Creator...
so he was NOT in and of himself...ontologically PERFECT...neither was
he anywhere near "omniscient."
 
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Breckmin

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So now explain to me how an all knowing God did not see the iniquity which was in Lucifer and how did it get there.

Choice is a variable of will or volition. Choices are influenced by knowledge
and motive as well as other circumstances...but they are still
acts of will. We can "create" thoughts in our mind. This is part of being
in God's Image. If we create EVIL thoughts...this does NOT mean that
God created them...just because He is/was omniscient of them (about them)
beyond the limitations of consecutive and linear time. God can observe
these creations in a transcendent state...this doesn't mean that
He is the Author of them. They are EVIL..and WE are responsible for them.

These are REAL choices. Our LOVE for God is a REAL choice.

Yes, it is by God's grace and by God's grace alone that He elects us
to have sight and removes our blindness so we can see the TRUTH. But
whether God spanks us into submission by bringing us to our knees..or
whether He draws us through blessing us...or even other means...WE
STILL CHOOSE to agree with Him and have REAL feelings of Love through
our WILL for Him.

The "iniquity" which Lucifer/Satan originated was from his own will. God
did NOT create it anymore than God creates the evil thoughts we have
in our minds. Satan's iniquity is a byproduct of his volition. Evil (sin) is
a potential bi-product of will and choice. God can observe the iniquity
in a timeless state of ordination beyond the limitations of the temporal
that we exist in...AND God can "sunergei" or Ordain/Appoint/Infinitely
Decree (imperfect in the English) such circumstances through an actual
INFINITE set of circumstances....but that does NOT remove absolute "choice"
or decision. Sunergeism comes from an esoteric theological theory
regarding God's Omni-temporal Being and theological Infinite Determinism
which is different from secular infinite determinism and also involves
concepts such as the esoteric "sanctum flexibus" and also the "dual reality
of evil" which deals with sin/evil from two perspectives (the way in which
God can mean it for good vs. the intentionality from the sinner's perspective
which will be judged or chastised (if a believer).

Sunergeism is NOT to be confused with synergism which deals with
salvation and is (synergism) in opposition to monergism.



Was it the big bang theory or it just sprang up from the nothingness.

I would say that it sprang out of an actual infinite set of circumstances
but I am not sure this would communicate to you what I mean regarding
timelessness and the inclusion of volition and will. Lucifer made a choice..
but defining that choice and explaining what I mean mathematically here
is going to be a little more difficult. Are you familiar with the concept of
infinite determiners in the Calculus?


You have to see and accept the truth. Nothing can just spring up in God's creation for it has to be sustained by Him in order for it to exist.

All things that will occur are known in the omniscient "mind" of our
Holy Creator...but this does NOT mean that God doesn't include
variables in His Creation which He observes and "sunergei's" or "is together
acting with." Sin and disobedience comes into existence by "choice."
I would like to say "pure" choice here...but that is clearly imperfect in
the English because of circumstances..to even HAVE such choices as
well as the motivations, deterrents, faith exercising and knowledge that
affect decisions and choices. It is far more complicated to start going
into details on circumstances (theological determinism - which is flawed)
and how there are actually an infinite amount of circumstances (instead
of a "seemingly infinite amount" of circumstances) which influence our
choices and quote unquote "determine" them.


Is that simple enough or is there a but?

There is much more than just a "but" here. Choice is REAL and not an
illusion.

Can the apple tree produce oranges.
Trees don't make choices. WE do .... and so do angels.

Can the perfect ways all of a sudden become corrupt.
Adam's did also. Adam's "ways without sin" became "ways which included
sin."

Yes! "Ways without sin" can INDEED become "ways with sin." It is because
of this that God is dealing with the problem of evil in this temporary
creation. It starts with the logical necessity of the Holy Sacrifice of
Jesus which is needed to redeem us out of corruption - which is
inevitable without knowledge that needs to be learned...or consequences
which need to be observed (in others)(or experienced yourself)- and it is
the Holy Sacrifice which makes the creation of mankind in the Image of
God logical....it even makes LOVE and choice logical to be able to exist
because of redemption.


What were the influences and where did they come from and why?
There are MANY circumstances which apply to Lucifer/satan...and I would
be willing to go through those with you....but what I am concerned about
is what you write next:

If you can answer that then we don't need the Holy Spirit to guide us into ALL TRUTH.

It is precisely the Holy Spirit of God that "opens up our eyes" to the
perfect logos (word) of God. That is why it is SO important to pray
for God to open your eyes and ears up to TRUTH before and while
you read scripture. Without the Holy Spirit...we would would be blind
to the Holy Cross of Jesus and how it is a Perfect Sacrifice for sin.
 
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Hismessenger

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But he was flawless in His ways for the word of God says that He was a liar from the beginning. Which means that He was flawless at telling lies with which he deceives fallen man. God said that everything He created was good, not in and of itself but GOOD for the purpose for which He made it manifest. You were perfect in your ways until the transgression for which You were created came out perfectly. Lastly how is evil sustained in the creation if not by God for His purpose?

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Hismessenger<<Lastly how is evil sustained in the creation if not by God for His purpose?>>

There are different types of evil...you must differentiate between evil circumstances and
things like "judgment" or "ill circumstances" due to causes and effects...AND (vs)
SIN.

Sin is different because it is a "choice." It is a decision that you do and it is
disobedience to a Holy Perfect Creator.
<<for the word of God says that He was a liar from the beginning..>>
If he was a liar when leading the angels in Holy worship before God then "why would
God accept his worship?" Being a potential liar and an actual liar are two different
states in your personal history, for one. Second, "from the beginning" is suspect...
because it could easily refer to the garden of Eden....or sometime when
he actually "fell" and started lying...which was "in the beginning."

Getting hyper-technical can get you into all sorts of trouble. It is much better
to pray for practical understanding...and the wisdom that the Holy Spirit opens
your eyes up to. <<God said that everything He created was good>> Yes. Good,
NOT perfect. I don't believe you can be PERFECT unless you are always humble
and always making logical decisions to trust God and obey God. You need to first
know how much God loves you.... or at least some degree of the quality of God's
Self-Sacrificing Love for you. We can't be Perfect without the Holy Cross of Jesus.
We can't be Perfect unless we know about God's faithfulness and His Love for us.
 
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Zeena

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But he was flawless in His ways for the word of God says that He was a liar from the beginning. Which means that He was flawless at telling lies with which he deceives fallen man.
'from the beginning' here is NOT speaking of the creation of the angels, it was specifically shown you, in the Word of God given us vai the Bible, that everything that was created was created in righteousness, he was perfect in his ways until he sinned!

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Is St. Peter herewith speaking of 'as at the beginning' in connection with the beginning of the creation of man?!? NO! He is specifically referring to Pentecost!-LOL!

There was a TIME when Lucifer chose to sin, and the Lord Jesus is specifically referring to that time as the referrance point!

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; and delivered just Lot vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; ) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:4-9

God said that everything He created was good
But your calling Him a liar in saying Lucifer was created with iniquity already in him?

That's not 'good', not even close to VERY GOOD! :blush:

not in and of itself
YEEESSSS, in and of itself, himself, GOOD, VERY GOOD, until he CHOSE to sin., JUST LIKE GOD SAID!

Are you not in denial of the Scripture?

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Why does one 'resist' if one submits to God?
Or is this Scripture verse now meaningless?!?

but GOOD for the purpose for which He made it manifest.
God designed Lucifer to cover the Mercy Seat, but he sinned and was cast down, as will all sinners have thier share in the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone forever and ever, the breath of the Allmighty kindes it! :holy:

You were perfect in your ways until the transgression for which You were created came out perfectly.
Lucifer was NOT created with the purpose of transgressing, but with the intent to reflect the will of the Sovereign Lord, which estate he abandoned!

Jeremiah 19:5-6
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

Lastly how is evil sustained in the creation if not by God for His purpose?
You accuse the Holy, Righteous, Pure God, of puppetry? The cause of the evils of this world?

1 John 3:3-10
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
 
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