Get a divorce or separation?

[sonshine234]

I have thought about this issue long and hard and realize I need to come to a decision. My husband and I have been married a handful of years, with enough time where it is reasonable to expect that as a Catholic couple, we would have 2 or 3 children. We don't have ANY.

Unfortunately my husband has made lots of excuses regarding why we couldn't have them a year or two earlier. Whether it was because we had bad jobs, not enough money, or some other excuse. He keeps pushing it back and I think I should be honest with myself and admit he doesn't want children, ever. We are both in our 30's and got married in our mid-20's, so it does seem awfully ridiculous at this point.

I also have to admit that I don't think I have a truly Catholic marriage. DH refuses to discontinue contracepting and if he had it his way, I'd be on that shot that stops menstruation for years. I won't be on contraception as it violates my faith and my conscience. In short-- we've never had truly procreative and unitive sex. I find this embarrassing as a Catholic, and more embarrassing that others look to me as a Catholic and see zero children. I know I can't be the only one in this situation, except the fact is I have to do something about it. I know a lot of other women just let it slide hoping their husbands will change and then they get divorced and get an annulment.

I know I need to confront him on this issue but I don't know what to do. I have two choices-- leave my marriage or deal with it, don't I? If I choose to stay I have to accept the fact he doesn't actually want children, but if I leave I have to accept the consequence that he will find a reason to not take me back and even worse, divorce me. I honestly have no idea what to do anymore. Lots of people have given me advice that I need to leave or accept a life of never being a mother, others have told me to pray, and others have told me to try to reason with him. I am sorry to say, but I have no control over my husband's emotions nor am I responsible for his feelings. I still am left with making a choice, both which have serious ramifications.

What should I do?

Praying for you all. You'll have to decide what is more important to you at this point, having children or being married and really, really, really pray. Pray the Rosary and find a Saint, your first step should always be pray

 

[Michie]

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When he got married he promised to be open to life.

We cannot use birth control, etc.

It is part of the teachings of the Church which you are not allowed to speak against in this forum.

You can fellowship but you cannot speak against or go against the teaching of the RCC.

The OP is Catholic & is looking for the Catholic pov.

But again, you are more than welcome to fellowship here if you'd like.

 

[dusky_tresses]

I think right NOW-- my current focus is to meet with a priest I trust who can guide me properly. I am not about making fast decisions or decisions I will deeply regret.

I appreciate the time and willingness from everyone to hear me out and offer advice.

 

[dusky_tresses]

As it's already been said, I'm Catholic and this is a Catholic forum.

 

[Root of Jesse]

At any rate, it sounds like it would be beneficial for me to seek the counsel of a priest. I don't know if I should talk to the priest I've known the longest or if I should seek out a different one.

If he's someone you trust, he'll give you the best advice. I guess, when I went to the priest, I would have the answer to these question:

If not now, when?
(if the answer is not specific, then ask) When we got married, what was your reason? (and if he says because he loved you, ask) What does 'love' mean to you? What does marriage mean to you? What is the purpose of marriage in your eyes? (If the answer to the last question doesn't involve rearing children, then you possibly have grounds for divorce and annulment.

Also, if he's contracepting, I would say you could feasibly withhold intimate relations with him...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Don't you think that's what I've been doing? I'll admit, the first 2 years of our marriage were really, really hard. I didn't want a child during that time. Once our marriage became more stable even when jobs and money wasn't, I did talk to him so much about having a child. Whatever his issues are, I'm not his mother to fix. I have done my part on seeking counsel for my own issues so I could bring my best into our marriage. I don't think I'm being selfish at all. I think my focus has always been to have a Catholic marriage above all things and I know if I keep waiting soon I won't be able to have any children.

Talk to the priest yourself. Maybe one Sunday, after Mass, he can approach your husband...

It sounds to me like you guys didn't really have the right intentions at the start-being open to children from day one. And I'm not judging-my marraige wasn't even sacramental for 17 years, and almost fell apart until we invited God into our home, yes, even into our finances and bedroom...

 

[Root of Jesse]

At this point I think the only thing that can get him to realize he has to act is by leaving. I've already been around the "let's see a priest" circle enough to know he doesn't take it seriously.

Then separation might be the first step to see what happens.

A separation is not so the two parties can go out and try to find a new partner. A separation is so that the two parties can realize whether or not they belong together. This means that, if you separate, and your husband goes back to bachelor ways, that he's not really in the marriage, in my estimation.

But as several have said, a priest should help you determine your next course of action. That is the proper way to do it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I haven't read through all of the comments yet, but I would strongly discourage you from getting divorced...or even considering it at this point.

He clearly isn't communicating with you and I don't know if the issue is related to whether or not he wants children. Through some psychological studies I have read, it seems that many men do have some kind of security they feel they must obtain before taking certain steps in life: marriage, children, etc. And a lot of it does relate to money.

Counseling with a priest or elder in the church is a great idea. Whether or not he is a participant in the beginning may not matter. Maybe you need some time to lay out what you feel are the problems with someone who can offer you an objective, Godly insight. Ultimatums are never a good idea - so ease your husband into the process gradually.

God bless.

Dusky, do you know a good deacon you could invote to dinner in your home? Actually, inviting the priest home with you to eat with you and your husband is a pretty good idea, too. Ya know, if you can't pull the horse to the creek, pull the creek to the horse!

 

[dusky_tresses]

FWIW, I just want to clarify that I am not a divorce-happy person. I've talked to a good amount of other women about this and all of them told me they would have gotten a divorce years ago. I have even been encouraged to get an annulment and marry someone "more Catholic" and I was young enough to "start over." I realize that I've allowed this to linger too long, and am figuring out the best next course of action.

 

[sonshine234]

Found St. Monica Prayer:

Dear St. Monica, troubled wife and mother, many sorrows pierced your heart during your lifetime. Yet, you never despaired or lost faith. With confidence, persistence, and profound faith, you prayed daily for the conversion of your beloved husband, Patricius, and your beloved son, Augustine; your prayers were answered. Grant me that same fortitude, patience, and trust in the Lord. Intercede for me, dear St. Monica, that God may favorably hear my plea for (Mention your intention here.) and grant me the grace to accept His Will in all things, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever. Amen. Prayer to St. Monica

and a novena here to St. Monica:

Prayer to St. Monica

Hope these prayers can help

 

[Root of Jesse]

FWIW, I just want to clarify that I am not a divorce-happy person. I've talked to a good amount of other women about this and all of them told me they would have gotten a divorce years ago. I have even been encouraged to get an annulment and marry someone "more Catholic" and I was young enough to "start over." I realize that I've allowed this to linger too long, and am figuring out the best next course of action.

Hey, I know what you mean. My wife talked to other women, one was my own aunt, about our issues, my aunt told her she should divorce me.

I believe you're heart is in the right place. Now go see that priest...God bless you.

 

[Michie]

I think right NOW-- my current focus is to meet with a priest I trust who can guide me properly. I am not about making fast decisions or decisions I will deeply regret.

I appreciate the time and willingness from everyone to hear me out and offer advice.

Praying for you both Dusky. May God guide you & lead you in the way you should go.

 

[WisdomTree]

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The Catholic Church do not have grounds for divorce because we don't allow divorce, period. When you get married within the Catholic Church, it is understood that one does so to become one (because you love each other) and bear fruit within that union, i.e. have children. Thus it is expected that you will have children at some point, thus the Sacred Magisterium's ban on contraception.

 

[MKJ]

You know, I think it is actually quite misleading to say the CC does not allow divorce.

In most places, you aren't actually allowed to apply for an annulment without getting a divorce first.

 

[WisdomTree]

You know, I think it is actually quite misleading to say the CC does not allow divorce.

In most places, you aren't actually allowed to apply for an annulment without getting a divorce first.

Those are to comply with local laws (especially now a days where annulments don't exist in civil law anymore). Other than, it is very accurate to say that the Catholic Church does not allow divorce, except for under the Pauline and Petrine privileges which is when one or both parties are not baptized Christians.

 

[MKJ]

Those are to comply with local laws (especially now a days where annulments don't exist in civil law anymore). Other than, it is very accurate to say that the Catholic Church does not allow divorce, except for under the Pauline and Petrine privileges which is when one or both parties are not baptized Christians.

Um - annulments do exist in civil law.

They are just fairly restricted in their use - much more like how the CC used to treat them actually. They really are relegated to instances when the person is not able or allowed to enter into that type of agreement - mentally incompentant, already married, using a fake identity, whatever.

And the CC recognizes divorce for what it is and accepts it - it is the legal dissolution of the marriage. Just like even when they grant an annulment, they recognize that there was a legal marriage. And they also accept that people can get divorced with good cause even if it is not possible to get an annulment.

It would be much more accurate to say that they do not admit the possibility of the actual dissolution of a valid marriage, except for the those instances you noted.

 

[WisdomTree]

Um - annulments do exist in civil law.

They are just fairly restricted in their use - much more like how the CC used to treat them actually. They really are relegated to instances when the person is not able or allowed to enter into that type of agreement - mentally incompentant, already married, using a fake identity, whatever.

And the CC recognizes divorce for what it is and accepts it - it is the legal dissolution of the marriage. Just like even when they grant an annulment, they recognize that there was a legal marriage. And they also accept that people can get divorced with good cause even if it is not possible to get an annulment.

It would be much more accurate to say that they do not admit the possibility of the actual dissolution of a valid marriage, except for the those instances you noted.

In a lot of places, the concept of "annulment" has been diluted to a different form of marriage rather than a proper null and void thing hence the whole Civil Divorce thing.

If you do get a civil divorce, but not an annulment, you cannot get remarried until your spouse die. That kind of defeats the purpose of acknowledging a civil divorce, isn't it? So instead of divorce, it's treated more like a legal separation, which essentially is a divorce all in, but name. Yes, we do have to be pragmatic at times, but that does not mean we lower our standards. It's just a matter of accomodating different pastoral needs. Regardless, I don't think that's really recognizing a divorce as being legitimate, but rather accomodating the current situation.

 

[WisdomTree]

Sounds like semantics.

Trying to make an excuse to dissolve the marriage the same as the Pharisees were doing.

It's not semantics if the definitions are different under the same circumstance.

For example, person A and person B gets married, consunmates and have children. Person A decides that Person B is no longer satisfactory, thus files for divorce (dissolves the marriage). Under this circumstance, other than no longer satisfactory, it is quite clear that person A just wants to divorce cause this person is sick of person B. Under canon law (or any law in fact), you cannot get an annulment because the marriage was clearly valid thus it is logically impossible to declare such marriage as null and void.

Divorce under Civil Law = Sure, some Protestants = why not?, Eastern Orthodox = maybe, Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic Church = no. In fact, this would probably result in an excommunication.

However lets say that person B was already married (prior to marriage) and is really a secret polygamist, or person B never wanted children to begin with and all the children they have are actually fakes (use your imagination). Then as one can see, it is clear that though the two were blessed by the Church, the marriage never took place because the contract they went into was never valid in the first place because one was blatantly deceived.

 

[WisdomTree]

Root of Jesse, why couldn't you have been here earlier? You're so much better at explaining this than me. A lot of the things I said sounded like some hard core legalistic nonsense!

 

[WisdomTree]

Not very many divorces, either.
My wife was married for 21 years, the husband cheated, and they got divorced. Then he sought an annulment. The annulment was a decree that stated that no marriage happened 21 years prior. Because the husband was too young to know what he was doing when they got married. It had nothing to do with him cheating. That wasn't even considered in the determination.

Wow...

However at this point, I have to say that my personal opinion does not coincide with Rome all the time. At the same time I find Constantinople too leniant allowing up to three divorces. As such I take the position of Alexandria which is mid-ground on this matter.