A question to Catholics about salvation

[zoidar]

I'm a Protestant of no specific denomination. I have a question for you brothers and sisters in Christ. How are we saved according to the Catholic church? I saw a video quite recently on youtube by a Catholic Priest that said we are saved as long as we don't commit a mortal sin. I was quite surprised. I thought Catholics hold to the need of good works for salvation.

It would be great if you support you answer with info from the catechism or some other authoritarian writing.

God bless!

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'm a Protestant of no specific denomination. I have a question for you brothers and sisters in Christ. How are we saved according to the Catholic church? I saw a video quite recently on youtube by a Catholic Priest that said we are saved as long as we don't commit a mortal sin. I was quite surprised. I thought Catholics hold to the need of good works for salvation.

It would be great if you support you answer with info from the catechism or some other authoritarian writing.

God bless!

St Paul said run the race.
[Always be careful to avoid sin you know absolutely know is a sin]
Seek confession and go and sin no more.

Run the race St Paul said, for Jesus said 'You saw Me hungry but did not feed me...' IE what you do to the least you do to Him.
Aka works.

Prayer is works. How many can obtain Heaven without ever praying?
There is a list of corporal works and spiritual works.

I'm rushing for work so not gonna quote. Sorry.
Have a good one.

 

[Bob Crowley]

There is a link to Catholic Answers here which gives one explanation.

Assurance of Salvation?

How should a Catholic answer the question, "Have you been saved?" We explain what the Church teaches on this crucial topic.

www.catholic.com

I don't think you'll find the topic of salvation encapsulated in a handy one verse passage in the Catechism, any more than you'll find the whole topic in one verse in the Bible. There are a number of verses which relate to salvation.

While the core of salvation is faith in Christ, He set up His church for a reason. When He spoke to Peter as being the Rock, He was setting up an office and giving it authority.

Further on He gave the apostles authority to "forgive ... and ... retain ... sins". We understand that apostolic authority has been handed down to the church. When a priest absolves someone of sin in the sacrament of reconciliation (aka confession), it is actually the Holy Spirit who is the active party viz. "Receive the Holy Spirit ... If you forgive someone their sin, they are forgiven...if you retain their sins, they are retained ..."

But we're also expected to do works, which basically fulfil the Second Commandment "Love your neighbour as yourself". We can't help God and He doesn't need our help. If He can create a universe out of nothing, there's nothing we can offer Him (except ourselves). But we can help our neighbour, and God expects us to do so.

In that sense I don't see one iota of difference between a Catholic charity and a Protestant charity. They're both doing what they think is the right thing to do, and that God expects them to do something to help others.

He expects a bit more from us that just saying "I believe".

The article from the link I posted closes with the following paragraph, which sums up the Catholic position on salvation rather well -

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

 

[Gnarwhal]

I thought Catholics hold to the need of good works for salvation.

That's a common misconception protestants have about Catholics. No, we don't. We believe that salvation is a progressive thing that continues throughout our lives until God saves our souls from eternal death when our bodies die in this world.

We believe in participation with God's salvific plan. That is cooperating with God's grace and doing our part to expand the Kingdom of Heaven, but no Catholic thinks works get us into heaven.

In fact, part of the prayers at Mass says "not weighing our merits but granting us your pardon through Christ our Lord."

 

[narnia59]

I'm a Protestant of no specific denomination. I have a question for you brothers and sisters in Christ. How are we saved according to the Catholic church? I saw a video quite recently on youtube by a Catholic Priest that said we are saved as long as we don't commit a mortal sin. I was quite surprised. I thought Catholics hold to the need of good works for salvation.

It would be great if you support you answer with info from the catechism or some other authoritarian writing.

God bless!

In my experience, first you have to be sure we're talking about salvation in the same way.

For example, the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith says that "“In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.” Yet when most Southern Baptists refer to salvation, they usually refer to being regenerated and justified, hence they say they are "saved."

Catholics view salvation in that broader sense. That is why we, like St. Paul, are reluctant to pronounce ourselves as being saved but believe we should wait until the Lord pronounces judgment (1 Corinthians 4:3-5). After all, isn't that his role -- to pronounce who is saved and who is not? When we pronounce ourselves as "saved," we are in actuality usurping the authority and role of Christ and taking a role for ourselves that belongs to him.

Also, for many Protestants, sanctification is seen more as a by-product of salvation. That is not how Catholics view it -- it is the very heart of what it means to be saved. This is rooted in an understanding that God did not need to save us from himself, but needs to save us from sin. We aren't "saved" until we are free from the bondage of sin and perfected in Christ.

And that is where good works come in. Works of charity conform us to the image of Christ. They are not optional, as Jesus, James, and even St. Paul attest if you read him carefully. Sanctification is not optional and that requires us to cooperate with God's grace in order to be perfected in Christ.

And underlying all of the Catholic view is an understanding of our dependence upon God's grace. God is both the initiator and sustainer of our faith. It is by grace we are able to believe, and it is by grace we are able to submit our will to his and allow ourselves to be perfected in charity. This is why we strongly disagree that we are a "works-based" salvation. "Works-based" implies you are getting there on your own. We know that we are totally dependent upon God's grace for all of it.

So the best short answer a Catholic can give to the question "are you saved" is "Yes, if I follow God's will, with the help of His grace

Regarding mortal sin, if you fail to allow charity to grow in your heart, eventually you will turn away from Christ completely (mortal sin). It's not a separate concept, just another way to say it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

We are saved through Christ Jesus. Those who believe in Him and follow His commandments,
will be saved.

Love God with your entire being and love your neighbor as yourself. This sums up
the entire way to follow the will of God.

God didn't send Jesus to change His mind about man, but to change
men's mind about God.

 

[Chesster]

Initial salvation is a free gift but final salvation is maintained by good works. It’s like your health, in order to keep it you have to eat right, exercise regularly, etc. otherwise you lose it. Similarly, we can lose our salvation by committing mortal sin but we maintain it by good works. From the sixth session of the Council of Trent, “. . . Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they (Catechumens) are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.”

There is no such thing as once saved always saved.

 

[zoidar]

Thanks all of you for your time! I know there is a Protestant vs Catholic thing going on. The reason I can't choose a denomination for myself as a Protestant is because I have a bit of a different idea of theology than most Protestants. In some questions I might be closer to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy than Protestantism. I'm saying this so you know I'm not here to attack anyone.

 

[zoidar]

There is a link to Catholic Answers here which gives one explanation.

Assurance of Salvation?

How should a Catholic answer the question, "Have you been saved?" We explain what the Church teaches on this crucial topic.

www.catholic.com

I don't think you'll find the topic of salvation encapsulated in a handy one verse passage in the Catechism, any more than you'll find the whole topic in one verse in the Bible. There are a number of verses which relate to salvation.

While the core of salvation is faith in Christ, He set up His church for a reason. When He spoke to Peter as being the Rock, He was setting up an office and giving it authority.

Further on He gave the apostles authority to "forgive ... and ... retain ... sins". We understand that apostolic authority has been handed down to the church. When a priest absolves someone of sin in the sacrament of reconciliation (aka confession), it is actually the Holy Spirit who is the active party viz. "Receive the Holy Spirit ... If you forgive someone their sin, they are forgiven...if you retain their sins, they are retained ..."

But we're also expected to do works, which basically fulfil the Second Commandment "Love your neighbour as yourself". We can't help God and He doesn't need our help. If He can create a universe out of nothing, there's nothing we can offer Him (except ourselves). But we can help our neighbour, and God expects us to do so.

In that sense I don't see one iota of difference between a Catholic charity and a Protestant charity. They're both doing what they think is the right thing to do, and that God expects them to do something to help others.

He expects a bit more from us that just saying "I believe".

The article from the link I posted closes with the following paragraph, which sums up the Catholic position on salvation rather well -

Thanks! The idea I get is that there is a need to abide in grace through living a fruitful life for God. And at that day, we are eternally saved if we die as a friend to God. At the same time the article says only mortal sins can separate us from God. It's a bit confusing, but I get the idea that we need to be on guard against sin, and try to live fruitfully to have an assurance of salvation.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Thanks all of you for your time! I know there is a Protestant vs Catholic thing going on. The reason I can't choose a denomination for myself as a Protestant is because I have a bit of a different idea of theology than most Protestants. In some questions I might be closer to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy than Protestantism. I'm saying this so you know I'm not here to attack anyone.

You're welcome, any time!

 

[zoidar]

In my experience, first you have to be sure we're talking about salvation in the same way.

For example, the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith says that "“In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.” Yet when most Southern Baptists refer to salvation, they usually refer to being regenerated and justified, hence they say they are "saved."

Catholics view salvation in that broader sense. That is why we, like St. Paul, are reluctant to pronounce ourselves as being saved but believe we should wait until the Lord pronounces judgment (1 Corinthians 4:3-5). After all, isn't that his role -- to pronounce who is saved and who is not? When we pronounce ourselves as "saved," we are in actuality usurping the authority and role of Christ and taking a role for ourselves that belongs to him.

Also, for many Protestants, sanctification is seen more as a by-product of salvation. That is not how Catholics view it -- it is the very heart of what it means to be saved. This is rooted in an understanding that God did not need to save us from himself, but needs to save us from sin. We aren't "saved" until we are free from the bondage of sin and perfected in Christ.

And that is where good works come in. Works of charity conform us to the image of Christ. They are not optional, as Jesus, James, and even St. Paul attest if you read him carefully. Sanctification is not optional and that requires us to cooperate with God's grace in order to be perfected in Christ.

And underlying all of the Catholic view is an understanding of our dependence upon God's grace. God is both the initiator and sustainer of our faith. It is by grace we are able to believe, and it is by grace we are able to submit our will to his and allow ourselves to be perfected in charity. This is why we strongly disagree that we are a "works-based" salvation. "Works-based" implies you are getting there on your own. We know that we are totally dependent upon God's grace for all of it.

So the best short answer a Catholic can give to the question "are you saved" is "Yes, if I follow God's will, with the help of His grace

Regarding mortal sin, if you fail to allow charity to grow in your heart, eventually you will turn away from Christ completely (mortal sin). It's not a separate concept, just another way to say it.

I think this was a very clear and good explanation. Many thanks!

 

[Markie Boy]

I am in a same but different boat. Having stepped away from Catholicism, I find much in the protestant world I can't agree with. The Once Saved Always Saved position - that salvation is a point in time and that's it - one and done. It's pretty much antinomianism. So that excludes me from 90% of the protestant denominations it seems.

But there is a problem in regards protestants and Rome. Rome seems to want to be kinder to protestants these days. But it has never lifted the anathemas of Trent. From what I see that makes it nearly impossible to look at protestants and say they are brothers.

Street level practice is more friendly these days, but official RCC teaching - I don't see how it can say protestants are saved or are brothers. Even if Vatican 2 used nicer language about protestants as brothers - the anathemas have never been removed.

I have seen this first hand. Average novus ordo parishes can be really friendly to non-Catholics. True Latin Catholics I have talked to will pretty much say I'm toast and not saved because I reject the papacy.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I have seen this first hand. Average novus ordo parishes can be really friendly to non-Catholics. True Latin Catholics I have talked to will pretty much say I'm toast and not saved because I reject the papacy.

I'm not going to put my full thoughts on this matter here because they'd be somewhat undiplomatic. I'd also have to drag in personal revelation, and that doesn't have any official authority.

But I will give some indications as to what I believe. I used to be Protestant, specifically Presbyterian. My wife is still Baptist.

I developed a great deal of respect for my Presbyterian (Ex-Methodist) pastor, even if he could be discouraging. I learnt a lot from him and I still haven't heard his equal in giving homilies, despite the fact he died 31 years ago.

We used to have discussions in his office on a fairly regular basis. At one point he said "I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven."

This was news to me and I asked him why he thought that. He replied "I don't think God is as easy going about the continued division of His Church as we are ... The Reformation was easily the most violent episode in Church history..."

If I remember rightly William Shirer, author of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", stated that the population of Germany, which was at the epicentre of the Reformation, declined from about 16 million to 6 million in the century after Luther due to wars of religion and their effects (destruction of agriculture, pillage, disease, loss of homes, requisition of goods, lack of shelter in a cold climate, the killing of males who do the heavy lifting, fatherless children, orphans etc.)

European wars of religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The discussion went on a bit, and I ended up asking him "If you believe that, then why are you still Protestant?!" He thought for a minute and then said "They (the Catholic Church) have done a lot of damage at times!" (which we have).

And we left it at that.

On another occasion we were talking about the Papacy, and he started off along the lines that "There's no proof that the Catholics can trace their first popes right back to Peter ...". He named a couple of the "alleged" early popes. But then he suddenly stopped and looked at my face with an expression of alarm.

I didn't know what the issue was and he cut the interview short.

The next time we met he said "The last time you were here you just about wrecked my faith!"

I wondered what the heck he was talking about and he said "We were talking about the popes... I said something about the early popes ... but something was coming through your face!"

I knew nothing about it, and I have to assume God told him something using some sort of supernatural sleight of hand. It certainly didn't come from me. Incidentally he was dying of cancer at this time, so he knew his time was short, and I was about to get married and leave his church.

He continued "It's a heresy! That's what worries me!" I presume he was talking about the protestant position on the papacy.

Then he shrugged and said "Well, the Lord knows I've tried to serve Him all my life!". He had too, and very well indeed. I guess he left his judgement in God's hands, who would have known full well just how hard he worked to serve God. Obviously I'm biased, but if the Catholic and Protestant churches ever got together again under one church roof, I think he'd be a candidate for canonisation, even though the world hardly knows anything about him. There's a few other Protestants I can think of who would be suitable candidates if it comes to that.

He died a few months later, and I became Catholic about five years after that. But I didn't become Catholic because of what he said. It was more a case of push becoming shove (by God) - if anything I resisted for a while.

I'm afraid I have doubts about the issue. There are of course those hardline Protestants who think Catholics are "Toast", but it would be ironic if they find they're not quite in the guaranteed safe seat that they think they are.

We tend to forget that the Church is God's Church. It was divided by men, with great violence.

I think He might expect us to fix it and stop making excuses.

 

[narnia59]

I am in a same but different boat. Having stepped away from Catholicism, I find much in the protestant world I can't agree with. The Once Saved Always Saved position - that salvation is a point in time and that's it - one and done. It's pretty much antinomianism. So that excludes me from 90% of the protestant denominations it seems.

But there is a problem in regards protestants and Rome. Rome seems to want to be kinder to protestants these days. But it has never lifted the anathemas of Trent. From what I see that makes it nearly impossible to look at protestants and say they are brothers.

Street level practice is more friendly these days, but official RCC teaching - I don't see how it can say protestants are saved or are brothers. Even if Vatican 2 used nicer language about protestants as brothers - the anathemas have never been removed.

I have seen this first hand. Average novus ordo parishes can be really friendly to non-Catholics. True Latin Catholics I have talked to will pretty much say I'm toast and not saved because I reject the papacy.

Some education on anathema's is in order since in the list of common errors people believe about them, you hit on almost all of them -- like that an anethema sentenced a person to hell, or was a sure sign that a person would go to hell, or was a sure sign that a person was not in state of grace, that they applied to all Protestants or that they're still in place today.

Anathema

What is Anathema? Does the Catholic Church still employ this as a penalty today? Read more here about the definition of the term and much more.

www.catholic.com

Canon 4 on Baptism of the Council of Trent recognized Protestant Baptisms as being valid. When you read the catechism from the Council of Trent it cites the same benefits of Baptism we have always recognized -- remission of sin, remission of all punishment due to sin, grace of regeneration, infused virtues of faith, hope and love and incorporation into Christ, and it opens the gates of heaven to us -- in other words, SAVED provided we persevere in faith and charity.

The idea that Protetants can't be saved has never been the position of the Church, not even at the Council of Trent.

 

[RileyG]

I'm a Protestant of no specific denomination. I have a question for you brothers and sisters in Christ. How are we saved according to the Catholic church? I saw a video quite recently on youtube by a Catholic Priest that said we are saved as long as we don't commit a mortal sin. I was quite surprised. I thought Catholics hold to the need of good works for salvation.

It would be great if you support you answer with info from the catechism or some other authoritarian writing.

God bless!

We are NOT saved by works. Period. We are saved by cooperating with the grace of God.

 

[Valletta]

I am in a same but different boat. Having stepped away from Catholicism, I find much in the protestant world I can't agree with. The Once Saved Always Saved position - that salvation is a point in time and that's it - one and done. It's pretty much antinomianism. So that excludes me from 90% of the protestant denominations it seems.

But there is a problem in regards protestants and Rome. Rome seems to want to be kinder to protestants these days. But it has never lifted the anathemas of Trent. From what I see that makes it nearly impossible to look at protestants and say they are brothers.

Street level practice is more friendly these days, but official RCC teaching - I don't see how it can say protestants are saved or are brothers. Even if Vatican 2 used nicer language about protestants as brothers - the anathemas have never been removed.

I have seen this first hand. Average novus ordo parishes can be really friendly to non-Catholics. True Latin Catholics I have talked to will pretty much say I'm toast and not saved because I reject the papacy.

If I may add to Narnia's excellent comment, an anathema, or an excommunication, and at sometimes a difference was defined and sometimes not, is a final warning from the Church that a person is on the wrong path. It is meant to help the person, inform that person how wrong they are, with hope that they return to the full teachings of Jesus.

 

[Lady Bug]

I think there is an impression among Protestants that Catholics are not saved until they accomplish a bucket list of certain works before they die.

Strictly speaking (and I don't want to mislead anyone on this), if you are free of mortal sin to the best of your memory, you are technically in a saved state. To be in a state of mortal sin, there are "only" certain kinds of sins that qualify (you can ask your priest for what they call an "Examination of Conscience" sheet), and you have to be absolutely certain and cognizant of the fact that you committed them, and on top of that, you seriously have to not give a sheet (different kind of sheet lol) about having done them and have no plans to confess them to the priest.

 

[narnia59]

I think there is an impression among Protestants that Catholics are not saved until they accomplish a bucket list of certain works before they die.

Strictly speaking (and I don't want to mislead anyone on this), if you are free of mortal sin to the best of your memory, you are technically in a saved state. To be in a state of mortal sin, there are "only" certain kinds of sins that qualify (you can ask your priest for what they call an "Examination of Conscience" sheet), and you have to be absolutely certain and cognizant of the fact that you committed them, and on top of that, you seriously have to not give a sheet (different kind of sheet lol) about having done them and have no plans to confess them to the priest.

The "bucket list" of works thought comes from a basic difference in the way Protestants view salvation. They view it as a transaction that takes place -- Jesus' righteousness in place of our sinfulness -- accept it and it's a done deal. So any view of works they want to know "how many" it takes. Catholics on the other hand understand that salvation is not a transaction that occurs but rather a transformation that takes place -- by grace we are transformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Markie Boy]

From what I understand Trent has around 100 anathemas against protestants. The old "No Salvation Outside the Church" still stands, and anathemas put one outside the church.

I guess I don't know - I can go to youtube and find multiple Trad Catholic scholars not agreeing - hard core ones saying protestants are not saved, more moderate ones not so much. And I can't defer to the Pope for an answer - for reasons we all probably agree on.

 

[Valletta]

From what I understand Trent has around 100 anathemas against protestants. The old "No Salvation Outside the Church" still stands, and anathemas put one outside the church.

I guess I don't know - I can go to youtube and find multiple Trad Catholic scholars not agreeing - hard core ones saying protestants are not saved, more moderate ones not so much. And I can't defer to the Pope for an answer - for reasons we all probably agree on.

Which "hard core" Catholics are saying such a thing? Here's a detailed examination of the subject:

Anathemas Of Trent & Excommunication: An Explanation

Anathemas & excommunication are very widely misunderstood concepts. They do NOT mean that one is automatically damned to hell by the Church.

www.patheos.com