A question to Catholics about salvation

[concretecamper]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.

No where in this paragraph does it say protestants are saved. I'm not saying yes or no, I'm just saying this paragraph doesn't address it.

The Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a State of Grace is saved. The challenge is once a protestant is of the age of reason, things get a bit more complicated.

As you contemplate, be reminded of these 3 dogmas every Catholic is OBLIGED to believe.

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

 

[Markie Boy]

(((hugs))) to all. I have read all your posts and they honestly DO make sense. I guess I just like the OSAS theology because I am so afraid of dying and going to hell, and, my dear daddy, turned on the Lord after my mom died, they had been married 61 years and he was never the same, so now, I am scared he is in hell.

I would love to go into answering more of the posts, but I will wait until I am more coherent. You see, last night we felt a horrific earthquake, it was 6.3 out in the ocean between us (the South Island) and the North Island. I am petrified of them, and this one was awful.
At first it felt like a gentle rocking, then stopped for a second then bang, the floor felt like it dropped, our bookshelves swayed and pictures banged against the wall. I was petrified and crying. I can't get used to them, I have been here 10 years, I should be used to them but I get so scared I fear I will have a heart attack. I am still thinking that I am feeling more rumbling when I know I am not. I fear for my pets too, I have two indoor kitties and a dog. I don't want anything to happen to them either. I was so frightened.

I did finally manage to get some sleep last night, but every little sound I heard I thought was the beginning of another one. I am still scared though, I saw on another earthquake site that because of this one, we could very well have another one worse than this and it could happen between now and the following week. I really don't know how much more stress I can take.

I am sorry for writing this in this thread, but I wanted to let you all know that I will answer, but right now, I am so rattled, I can't think straight. Blessings to you all.

I hope you can relax and rest. God is good, and there are passages that can offer hope - one of my favorites "love covers a multitude of sins" - 1 Peter 4:8.

 

[narnia59]

No where in this paragraph does it say protestants are saved. I'm not saying yes or no, I'm just saying this paragraph doesn't address it.

The Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a State of Grace is saved. The challenge is once a protestant is of the age of reason, things get a bit more complicated.

As you contemplate, be reminded of these 3 dogmas every Catholic is OBLIGED to believe.

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

No baptism of desire in your world? Or blood?

The question is whether they can be saved, and the Church affirms yes they can be.

 

[concretecamper]

No baptism of desire in your world? Or blood?

Of course, it has always been Catholic teaching. It refers to catechumens.

The question is whether they can be saved, and the Church affirms yes they can be.

Yes, the Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a state of grace is saved. That includes protestants. Just remember precisely what the Church teaches.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Of course, it has always been Catholic teaching. It refers to catechumens.

Yes, the Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a state of grace is saved. That includes protestants. Just remember precisely what the Church teaches.

We shouldn't rush to say everybody is saved. Not every Protestant will be. Not every Catholic will be. Protestants can be saved even while being Protestant. My opinion is perhaps unpopular but kind of goes along with Jesus saying that there is a wide way and a narrow way, and the narrow way leads to salvation. So it matters how we live. We should want Protestants to become good Catholics and we should want Catholics to become good Catholics.

 

[concretecamper]

We shouldn't rush to say everybody is saved. Not every Protestant will be. Not every Catholic will be. Protestants can be saved even while being Protestant. My opinion is perhaps unpopular but kind of goes along with Jesus saying that there is a wide way and a narrow way, and the narrow way leads to salvation. So it matters how we live. We should want Protestants to become good Catholics and we should want Catholics to become good Catholics.

We shouldn't rush to judgement of anyone. Judgement is His job alone. I'm just posting Catholic teaching as guide rails for us.

 

[narnia59]

Of course, it has always been Catholic teaching. It refers to catechumens.

Yes, the Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a state of grace is saved. That includes protestants. Just remember precisely what the Church teaches.

I know precisely what the Church teaches. Protestants can be saved. That doesn't mean they will any more than a Catholic will be saved. Yes, we must die in a state of grace.

Regarding the necessity of baptism:

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

 

[Lady Bug]

I don't want to make matters worse, but this applies to anyone to whom the Gospel is presented.

I can't just easily say that if someone HAS been presented with the Gospel, and refuses it anyway, even though he or she doesn't "know" that it's true yet, that they're saved. I think it does become dangerous to one's soul if they are presented with the truth and knowingly reject it, whether they've come to "know" it's true or not. Do any of us "know" something is true, or do we simply "believe" it's true? If we "knew" something was true, it wouldn't be called "faith" anymore.

I think it's a serious issue to brush aside the notion (if anyone is doing that) that someone is given the Gospel, hostilely rejects it, but is saved anyway because they don't "know" it yet.

 

[Markie Boy]

So I am thinking out loud here.

A Catholic can be saved, or not. A protestant can be saved, or not.

What is the common thread they share that brings salvation? It's obviously not the traditions or rituals of either side, as those differ (and all groups have traditions, just not all actually admit or realize it - altar calls, baby dedications in place of baptisms, etc.)

So what is the common thread that brings salvation?

 

[narnia59]

So I am thinking out loud here.

A Catholic can be saved, or not. A protestant can be saved, or not.

What is the common thread they share that brings salvation? It's obviously not the traditions or rituals of either side, as those differ (and all groups have traditions, just not all actually admit or realize it - altar calls, baby dedications in place of baptisms, etc.)

So what is the common thread that brings salvation?

God's grace is the common thread. And whether or not that person has responded to it. And then strives "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Unfortunately, for some if not many Protestants sanctification is seen as an automatic thing that will just happen once you're "saved" and not something you have to strive for. Sanctification is at the heart of the Catholic understanding of what it means to be saved. Catholics understand that Christ gave us the Church and the sacraments as a means to receive the grace needed to sustain our faith and to perfect us in charity. We also understand that God is not bound by the sacraments, He can definitely work outside of them. That is why you can see Protestants who are most definitely striving for that holiness and their lives demonstrate that. You can also see Catholics who simply "go through the motions" with the sacraments and you see no signs of growing in holiness. But the Church is clear that if you don't have the right intent the sacraments aren't going to help you. They're not magic.

I've always found this article to be most hopeful to explain why one should indeed be Catholic and not simply think there isn't really any difference what church you belong to:

Does Being Catholic Make a Difference? | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

 

[narnia59]

I don't want to make matters worse, but this applies to anyone to whom the Gospel is presented.

I can't just easily say that if someone HAS been presented with the Gospel, and refuses it anyway, even though he or she doesn't "know" that it's true yet, that they're saved. I think it does become dangerous to one's soul if they are presented with the truth and knowingly reject it, whether they've come to "know" it's true or not. Do any of us "know" something is true, or do we simply "believe" it's true? If we "knew" something was true, it wouldn't be called "faith" anymore.

I think it's a serious issue to brush aside the notion (if anyone is doing that) that someone is given the Gospel, hostilely rejects it, but is saved anyway because they don't "know" it yet.

The idea of invincible ignorance is a tricky one for us because we can't know minds and hearts. But it won't be tricky for God.

I don't think we can simply say that because somebody has heard the Gospel presented once or even more times that they have by default been convicted by the Holy Spirit and rejected the truth. So many times somebody's background is a real blocker and God has to find a way to seep through the cracks. So it may be the tenth time they hear it or the 100th that conviction takes place and then they either freely accept or reject it.

We're simply called to live faithful lives that God can use to witness to them. And the rest is between that person and God. But we do know it's possible for somebody to be saved who hasn't formally accepted the Gospel.

I know a young man who professes to be an agnostic if not even an atheist. But he strives to live a life of virtue and to especially be a better father than he knew. He takes that role very seriously. So what is he responding to in that conviction if not God's grace? Hopefully someday the light will click on for him, but in the meantime I can see God working in his life and him responding simply by the choices he makes. You can't consistently live a life of virtue without divine help.

 

[DragonFox91]

I feel like the language used to convert a Protestant to Catholicism isn’t the same language Catholics are using in this thread. For example, I'm finding myself agreeing w/ a lot of your guys's posts. Either there's more similarities between us then we're willing to admit sometimes, or the motive in this thread is different than trying to get someone to convert to Catholicism.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No where in this paragraph does it say protestants are saved. I'm not saying yes or no, I'm just saying this paragraph doesn't address it.

The Church teaches any VALIDLY Baptized person who dies in a State of Grace is saved. The challenge is once a protestant is of the age of reason, things get a bit more complicated.

As you contemplate, be reminded of these 3 dogmas every Catholic is OBLIGED to believe.

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

Baptism by desire and by blood.

One may be saved because they are baptized by desire but have no way or time to be baptized by anyone while in danger of passing.
Baptism by blood is similar but martyrdom for Christ ....

 

[WarriorAngel]

The idea of invincible ignorance is a tricky one for us because we can't know minds and hearts. But it won't be tricky for God.

I agree. I also believe the Lord knowing fully the heart, has mercy on Him He shall have mercy.

 

[WarriorAngel]

A visual of judgment:

A good person who fully trusts and believes in the Lord dies but has no knowledge of the Catholic teachings and has hoped their whole life to please the Lord and be doing right by Him will be judged, I am pretty sure, through the lens of the Cross.
Because the Lord does not judge ignorance of truth the same as He would knowledge of the truth.

The Protestants have a missing ingredient - the sacraments which keep us strong on the journey.
Explaining to them that power of grace is difficult.
Though they do hold to baptism, which is good.
But the other sacraments and MOST especially the Eucharist, if they fully embrace the Presence of the Lord is knee buckling, shaking with every emotion possible and then reception bringing the utmost peaceful release and feeling.

That said: truly all protestants are living in ignorance.
If it is invincible or vincible, the Lord knows.

Everything comes to light on that Day. [Judgment]

 

[fide]

.......

He died a few months later, and I became Catholic about five years after that. But I didn't become Catholic because of what he said. It was more a case of push becoming shove (by God) - if anything I resisted for a while.

I'm afraid I have doubts about the issue. There are of course those hardline Protestants who think Catholics are "Toast", but it would be ironic if they find they're not quite in the guaranteed safe seat that they think they are.

We tend to forget that the Church is God's Church. It was divided by men, with great violence.

I think He might expect us to fix it and stop making excuses.

John Henry Newman wrote, “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.” That can be a very helpful truth, in the struggle we have, giving ourselves with no reservation into God's hands and will. Difficulties challenge us to find solutions - resolutions - the elimination of apparent contradiction within us - the attainment and protection of integrity in the soul. Doubt is disbelief, holding on to our own judgment against the setting aside of that personal judgment for the sake of belief in the word of God.

James wrote,
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.

James links "doubt" with having a "double-mind." (see also Jam 4:8) The Greek word translated "double mind" is (according to my non-professional analysis):
δίψυχος -dipsuchos - from "duo" - two, or twice, and "psuchē" - soul, spirit, or mind; thus "two-souled", having two minds - double minded. Such doubt reveals a struggle of one foot in the world, and one foot on the bridge to the Kingdom. Such reveals our foolishness, really, attempting the impossible: to serve both God and Mammon! (Mt 6:4) Impossible. It's one or the other - an interior contradiction that is a house divided, and that cannot stand. (Mt 12:25)

When one sees that his "doubts" are actually difficulties instead - an interior difficulty for himself - a clinging to something in the world that he needs to renounce and reject, that is blocking his journey into Christ, and Truth in Him - then the "difficulty" can be faced and overcome by Truth, by Faith, by the certainty who is Christ Himself.

 

[concretecamper]

Baptism by desire and by blood.

One may be saved because they are baptized by desire but have no way or time to be baptized by anyone while in danger of passing.
Baptism by blood is similar but martyrdom for Christ ....

Yes, this is for catechumens who die by either persecution or other means prior to receiving the Sacrament. The Church has always believed that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I feel like the language used to convert a Protestant to Catholicism isn’t the same language Catholics are using in this thread.

There are unfortunately lots of different languages being used in this thread even if we are nominally all speaking English. There are of course differences in language between Protestants and Catholics. We can use the exact same word but mean something different by it. And not all Protestants use words the same within Protestantism. But then there are words as used by theologians and words used by normal people. We are normal people who try but we aren't theologians. So we are not precise. Then again theologians sometimes talk with a mouth full of potatoes. It's a wonder we can communicate at all.

For example, I'm finding myself agreeing w/ a lot of your guys's posts. Either there's more similarities between us then we're willing to admit sometimes, ...

Well, there ARE similarities. Where we don't agree exactly sometimes we rhyme. On things we are sure we disagree, and have disagreed even 500 years, we find concordance if we look. For example, Lutherans (some Lutherans and by no means all Lutherans) and Catholics now agree that differences in justification are not sufficient to keep us apart.

... or the motive in this thread is different than trying to get someone to convert to Catholicism.

There are some different currents in this thread. One involves a former Catholic who has not fully disconnected and is seeking a home elsewhere but is unhappy with running into OSAS everywhere he turns. There are some other currents I may not even be hip to. So while the intent is to answer your specific question, some other stuff, maybe some inside baseball, gets thrown in there like a slider.

Are your questions being answered? Are the answers making sense to you? Do they bring up new questions? Do the other posts raise new lines of questioning? We'll try to help.

 

[narnia59]

Yes, this is for catechumens who die by either persecution or other means prior to receiving the Sacrament. The Church has always believed that.

So you think that if you're officially enrolled in the catechmenate and die before being baptized you're saved but if you are perhaps just in the Inquiry phase and die you're not saved because you haven't been baptized?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (our official teaching source) says

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

Do you disagree with our catechism on this?

 

[narnia59]

There are unfortunately lots of different languages being used in this thread even if we are nominally all speaking English. There are of course differences in language between Protestants and Catholics. We can use the exact same word but mean something different by it. And not all Protestants use words the same within Protestantism. But then there are words as used by theologians and words used by normal people. We are normal people who try but we aren't theologians. So we are not precise. Then again theologians sometimes talk with a mouth full of potatoes. It's a wonder we can communicate at all.

This made me laugh.

But it's true