Generic Oranges

[cygnusx1]

First, please do not assert that I avoid the obvious meaning of scripture.

Second, please do not assert that my reasoning is carnal. My reasoning is biblical.

The question before us is what does "from the beginning mean"? We do not need to look at the Greek, but at the context.

We have two questions, is the beginning the beginning of the individuals life in Christ, indicating God's individual election? Or is the beginning the start of creation. Neither view points to before creation, or the tesxt would say before the foundation of the world. But alas it does not. Since no one is putting forth the beginning of creation, we are stuck with the only view left standing, the beginning of the individuals life in Christ.

So what does the verse say? We must repost the verse to avoid the wrong impression created by posting only part of the verse: But we should alway give thank to God for you [ speaking of existent individuals in Christ] brethren beloved by the Lord [again indicating the folks in view are born again in Christ believers] because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation [ we did not choose, God chose you][and how did God choose you for salvation?] through sanctification by the Spirt [God placed you in Christ by the spiritual baptism performed by the Holy Spirit] and faith in the truth [faith in Christ who is the Truth]. God accepted our faith in Christ and placed us in Christ which was our individual election from the beginning of our life in Christ.

Behold the gospel of Christ.

behold the gospel of van ............ and you have done nothing to answer the charge of carnal reasoning .....

you have stated quite clearly for all to see that you do not accept Election unto salvation , even though I myself and NBF gave you a scripture each that explicitly states it is such ....... you have just chose to ignore this fact , why ?

Also you seem to have a problem with dimensions beyond our own ......... you think the elect had no existance before time , wrong they had a subsistance in Christ.

Let me clarify , we are here on this earth right now are we not Van ?
yet it is crystal clear that we are also seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus ... NOW!

we are not called to rationalise these truths away , but to accept them by faith , and to ask The Lord to expand our understanding , not reduce His word to fit our earthly minds.

 

[Van]

Lets revisit 2 Thess 2:13. Here is the ESV
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Footnotes:

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts chose you from the beginning

So in fact, some manuscripts actually literally agree with my understanding of the text derived from the context. Amazing. Thank you Spirit!

 

[cygnusx1]

Lets revisit 2 Thess 2:13. Here is the ESV
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Footnotes:

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts chose you from the beginning

So in fact, some manuscripts actually literally agree with my understanding of the text derived from the context. Amazing. Thank you Spirit!

Haven't you found a translation that omitts "chose you from the beginning" yet van ............

what is this ........... "Amen for the ambiguity of manuscripts" .......... I knew this would happen , now go see if you can reject the scripture NBF quoted too!!!!

picking one version that is out of step with the others is surely a sign of extreme bias and self delusion , I want you to remember this day , because somewhere along the line I will remind you!

 

[Van]

you have stated quite clearly for all to see that you do not accept Election unto salvation , even though I myself and NBF gave you a scripture each that explicitly states it is such ....... you have just chose to ignore this fact , why ?

Lets camp on this little puppy. Folks do you see any quote of mine? Nope. So what we have is a mischaracterization. Do not be fooled.

I accept election unto salvation for individuals during our physical lifetime, just as scripture clearly teaches. Look at 2 Thess 2:13. How are we chosen? By the sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth. Did we believe in Jesus before creation? Nope. Does RT contend that we did? Nope. But scripture says otherwise. Folks the very verses used in support of RT actually prove RT is a mistaken view of scripture.

There is no support in scripture for subsistence in Christ before creation.

Folks, note the assertion of unnamed scriptures supporting the RT view. This ploy of referring back to a post (probably gibberish) as if it was a cogent presentation of the Word is the hall mark lost argument.

Note also the introduction of "MY Problems" to shift the discussion away from Ephesians 1:4. I suppose any port in a storm.

Note next the introduction of non-germaine subjects, those born again are here in our mortal tents of flesh, and yet some part of our human spirit is in Christ and as Christ is seated in heaven, we are also in the heavenlies. Absolutely true, clearly taught in scripture, and having nothing to do with God choosing Christ before creation to be the Lamb of God. When was our spirit created? Before creation? Besides being oxymoric, it is irrational. Scripture tells us where our spirits are created? They are created within us, hence at conception and not before.

Yes, we must accept God and His gospel with faith, but we are not to accept false teachings that do not mesh with scripture. We are to be noble, and check scripture.

 

[cygnusx1]

let me see............

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Footnotes:

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts chose you from the beginning

so some manuscripts have chose you from the beginning WHERE THE 'a' IS




which would read

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


nice try Van .............. it just didn't jump the hurdle!

 

[cygnusx1]

Lets camp on this little puppy. Folks do you see any quote of mine? Nope. So what we have is a mischaracterization. Do not be fooled.

I accept election unto salvation for individuals during our physical lifetime, just as scripture clearly teaches. Look at 2 Thess 2:13. How are we chosen? By the sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth. Did we believe in Jesus before creation? Nope. Does RT contend that we did? Nope. But scripture says otherwise. Folks the very verses used in support of RT actually prove RT is a mistaken view of scripture.

There is no support in scripture for subsistence in Christ before creation.

Folks, note the assertion of unnamed scriptures supporting the RT view. This ploy of referring back to a post (probably gibberish) as if it was a cogent presentation of the Word is the hall mark lost argument.

Note also the introduction of "MY Problems" to shift the discussion away from Ephesians 1:4. I suppose any port in a storm.

Note next the introduction of non-germaine subjects, those born again are here in our mortal tents of flesh, and yet some part of our human spirit is in Christ and as Christ is seated in heaven, we are also in the heavenlies. Absolutely true, clearly taught in scripture, and having nothing to do with God choosing Christ before creation to be the Lamb of God. When was our spirit created? Before creation? Besides being oxymoric, it is irrational. Scripture tells us where our spirits are created? They are created within us, hence at conception and not before.

Yes, we must accept God and His gospel with faith, but we are not to accept false teachings that do not mesh with scripture. We are to be noble, and check scripture.

folks are not easily fooled van.

rationalism has taken over here.

when did we receive our first blessings Van ........... when we were created , born -again ........ or before the world was formed ?

Ephesians 1: 3-6,11-12
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Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. Before the world was made

do you not know that Levi though not even born .... payed Tythes unto Melchizedek through Abraham !

so says God's word , truly things are spoken of that do not appear as though they are realities , for God doesn't see like man sees.[/FONT]

 

[Van]

Hi, the Greek is on my side, it says first fruit. You can look it up. I have none nothing wrong, but instead have presented the correct view of 2 Thess 2:13 which proves your view is mistaken.

There is no verse that supports your position, so your claim that NBF presented one is again pure assertion. I would address it if you had given the number, but since you did not we are left with an assertion without support.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi, the Greek is on my side, it says first fruit. You can look it up. I have none nothing wrong, but instead have presented the correct view of 2 Thess 2:13 which proves your view is mistaken.

There is no verse that supports your position, so your claim that NBF presented one is again pure assertion. I would address it if you had given the number, but since you did not we are left with an assertion without support.

there is no pure assertion van .

post number 50 !

Jam 2:5 KJV Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

now go see if you can get around it by hiding in the Greek .........

alas that you seem to be tailoring your cloth to whims

let me see............

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


Footnotes:

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts chose you from the beginning

so some manuscripts have chose you from the beginning WHERE THE [a] IS




which would read

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[nobdysfool]

This ploy of referring back to a post (probably gibberish) as if it was a cogent presentation of the Word is the hall mark lost argument.

You only wish! The only gibberish posted here has been the convoluted and contradictory posts you have made, scrambling to cover your own hind end. Now you try to hurl veiled insults at me. I will not leave them unaswered.

I have detailed my position, and I believe it is the biblical position. You disagree, but you can't stand anyone disagreeing with you without taking shots at them. Your pompous and self-agrandizing posts are testament to your inability to engage in serious debate without insulting people.

I have said my piece here, and will continue to do so as I have time. You have not refuted my position, in fact your arrogance has actually established it. Most people can see who is teaching truth, and who is blowing smoke. It's plain to see that the smoke is coming from your end of the table.

 

[cygnusx1]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]James 2:5 [/SIZE][/FONT]​

http://bible.cc/james/2-6.htmhttp://bible.cc/1_peter/1-1.htm

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Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who love him? (WEB)

Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him? (ASV)

Give ear, my dear brothers; are not those who are poor in the things of this world marked out by God to have faith as their wealth, and for their heritage the kingdom which he has said he will give to those who have love for him? (BBE)

Hear, my beloved brethren: Has not God chosen the poor as to the world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to them that love him? (DBY)

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? (KJV)

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? (WBS)

Listen, my dearly-loved brethren. Has not God chosen those whom the world regards as poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom which He has promised to those that love Him? (WEY)

Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him? (YLT)[/FONT]​

 

[cygnusx1]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]2 Thessalonians 2:13 [/SIZE][/FONT]​

http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-14.htmhttp://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/3-1.htmhttp://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-1.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth; (WEB)

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (ASV)

But it is right for us to give praise to God at all times for you, brothers, loved by the Lord, because it was the purpose of God from the first that you might have salvation, being made holy by the Spirit and by faith in what is true: (BBE)

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, that God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (DBY)

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (KJV)

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth: (WBS)

And from us thanks are always due to God on your behalf--brethren whom the Lord loves--because God from the beginning has chosen you for salvation through the Spirit's sanctifying influence and your belief in the truth. (WEY)

And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, (YLT)[/FONT]
​

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[/FONT]​

 

[Van]

Folks there are two variant renderings of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I have posted both the NASB version which contains the phrase "from the beginning" and ESV version which contains the prase "as first fruits." Both renderings indicate we were chosen individually at the start of our life in Christ. None support the idea of being chosen before creation.

 

[cygnusx1]

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ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλετο υμας ο θεος απ αρχης εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας​

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ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλετο υμας ο θεος απ αρχης εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας[/FONT]
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ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλατο υμας ο θεος απ αρχης εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας[/FONT]
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ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλατο υμας ο θεος {VAR1: απ αρχης } {VAR2: απαρχην } εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας[/FONT]
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nos autem debemus gratias agere Deo semper pro vobis fratres dilecti a Deo quod elegerit nos Deus primitias in salutem in sanctificatione Spiritus et fide veritatis[/FONT]
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But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/FONT]
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But it is right for us to give praise to God at all times for you, brothers, loved by the Lord, because it was the purpose of God from the first that you might have salvation, being made holy by the Spirit and by faith in what is true:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, that God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

And from us thanks are always due to God on your behalf--brethren whom the Lord loves--because God from the beginning has chosen you for salvation through the Spirit's sanctifying influence and your belief in the truth.[/FONT]
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But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth:[/FONT]
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But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth;[/FONT]
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And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]σωτηριαν noun - accusative singular feminine
soteria so-tay-ree'-ah
rescue or safety (physically or morally) -- deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.[/FONT] [/FONT]​

 

[Van]

Folks, note the avalache defense of mistaken doctrine. One post after another fully of charges against me and claims of great posts in the past. RT is a mistaken view of scripture. I have illustrated the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Read the OP. Nothing of merit has been offered to support the RT view. James 2:5 supports my view. God chosing those that love him. Shall we go over that one yet again.

Listen, my beloved brethren; did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

First point, this is the NASB version of the text. The words "to be" are in italics indicating they were added by the translators and the actual words are not in the Greek. Thus the YLT reads: 5Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him?

The verse says God chose the poor of this world, indicating God chose folks existing and of this world, puting God choice after creation. But this verse also proves that election is conditional, because He chose folks with three characteristics (1) poor - meaning not invested in the value system of this world; (2) rich in faith - meaning invested in God and His kingdom; and (3) folks that love Him.

And so we find, James 2:5 proves RT wrong, 2 Thess 2:13 proves RT wrong, and Ephesians 1:4 is explained without generating conficts with these verses.

May God bless

 

[Van]

I see yet another post of Greek in the Greek. Very informative. Not! I believe the best most scholarly text in the Greek of the New Testament is 21st edition of Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece. This is the NT text that the NASB is based on. However, they diverged from the main text and used a variant, consistent with the KJV. The ESV did not. The "critical text" as translated by Alfred Marshall says "first fruits"

 

[nobdysfool]

Folks, note the avalache defense of mistaken doctrine. One post after another fully of charges against me and claims of great posts in the past. RT is a mistaken view of scripture. I have illustrated the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Read the OP. Nothing of merit has been offered to support the RT view. James 2:5 supports my view. God chosing those that love him. Shall we go over that one yet again.

Poor Van, everyone is persecuting him! So his defense is to deny what has been said, which is completely untrue. Plenty of posts of merit have been presented to refute Van's mistaken view.

Listen, my beloved brethren; did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

First point, this is the NASB version of the text. The words "to be" are in italics indicating they were added by the translators and the actual words are not in the Greek.

Van must believe that the Greek transliterates word for word into English, which is the evidence of someone who doesn't know Greek. Th words to be are added for readability, and because the Greek tenses imply their use. Van would know that if he knew Greek.

Thus the YLT reads: 5Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him?

So Van undertakes to correct the Young's Literal Translation. How funny!

The verse says God chose the poor of this world, indicating God chose folks existing and of this world, puting God choice after creation.

Apparently Van doesn't believe that God knew what the living circumstances of these people would be until they were actually living. Seems to me I've heard of that particular view of God before.....ah, yes, Open Theism, or more correctly, Molinism.

But this verse also proves that election is conditional, because He chose folks with three characteristics (1) poor - meaning not invested in the value system of this world; (2) rich in faith - meaning invested in God and His kingdom; and (3) folks that love Him.

Election is conditional? On what man does? Then Election is a reward for right behavior, and man must earn it by his actions. C'mon, Van, you know this isn't true! Why do you make such statements?

Point 3. God chose us and loved us before we ever loved Him, or chose Him. 1John 4:19 makes this crystal. Yet Van insists that God chooses those who love Him, in complete contradiction of scripture. And he resists being corrected concering it. Can we trust anything he says, when he so carelessly handles the Word?

And so we find, James 2:5 proves RT wrong, 2 Thess 2:13 proves RT wrong, and Ephesians 1:4 is explained without generating conficts with these verses.

May God bless

And what we really find, is that Van is full of beans, and is seriosuly twisting scripture, and teaching falsehoods, as well as claiming things that aren't so.

To recap: Plenty has been posted in refutation and explanation of why Van's Orange Crate analogy falls short.

Van doesn't know Greek and attempts to rewrite translations that have been created with much attention to God's Word, knowledge of Greek , and prayerful consideration of syntax and grammar. But Van claims to know better.

Van apparently holds to at least a few of the tenants of Open Theism, by declaring that the poor of this world are not chosen by God until they are living, and presumably not until they have demonstrated something worthy in God's sight of His acceptance.

Van declares that God chooses (elects) those who love God, when 1 John 4:19 declares explicitly that We love Him BECAUSE He FIRST love us.

Van declares that Election is conditional, which can only mean that it is conditional upon man doing something that pleases God, which contradicts Romans 9:16, and Romans 8:29-30.

Therefore, We can see that Van, while fancying himself to be a teacher, has much to learn himself, and should be more amenable to correction.

 

[nobdysfool]

(3) Every name in the Lamb's Book of Life was written there before the foundation of the world - And again this is complete fiction. No verse says this or implies this. What scripture actually says is names were not written in the lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world. This is key, the RT view has individual election occuring BEFORE the foundation of the world, yet scripture indicates, if we assume that during the same interval that some names were not written, other names were written, which is reasonable, that we were enrolled in the Lamb's book of life during the time frame from creation to the end of the age. See Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 and note they say from and not before as they would if the RT view was correct.

Van loves to parse words when he thinks they can be twisted to support his view. Let's take a look at what some others have said concering the book of Life.:

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life"; see Gill on Rev_3:5; and their "names being written therein from the foundation of the world", Rev_17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God;such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. Something like this the Jews say (e) of the Messiah upon Gen_49:11, "he washed מיומא דאתברי עלמא, "from the day that the world was created"; who is he? this is the King Messiah.--It is written Gen_1:2; "and the Spirit of God", &c. This is the Spirit of the King Messiah; and from the day that the world was created; he washed his garments in wine;'' which the Jewish writers (f) understand of blood, which for its redness is like to wine; though they interpret it of the blood of the slain, with which the garments of the Messiah will be stained. Now such whose names are not written in this book of the Lamb, who have no interest in electing grace, nor in redemption by Christ, the slain Lamb of God, nor any right unto eternal life, who are reprobate persons, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, who are foreordained to condemnation, and are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned, these are the followers and worshippers of antichrist.

(e) Zohar in Gen. fol. 128. 2, 3. (f) Targum Jon. & Jerus. & Aben Ezra in Gen. xlix. 11.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.
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Lamb slain from the foundation of the world--The Greek order of words favors this translation. He was slain in the Father's eternal counsels: compare 1Pe_1:19-20, virtually parallel. The other way of connecting the words is, "Written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb slain." So in Rev_17:8. The elect. The former is in the Greek more obvious and simple. "Whatsoever virtue was in the sacrifices, did operate through Messiah's death alone. As He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," so all atonements ever made were only effectual by His blood" [BISHOP PEARSON, Exposition of the Creed].

From Jamierson, Faussett, and Brown Commentary

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Van also tries to make a place to stand by saying that the word "from" means that it was not before, but the Greek word apo
can also be translated as "before", so it is obvious that Van is grasping at straws.

The Book of Life is the record of God's Indivudual, specific Election of all who will believe and be joined to Christ, and this was done before any had yet existed. David spoke of God knowing all of his days before any of them yet were, which is an obvious foreknowledge of individuals.

The Book of Life is the clearest and strongest proof that generic conditional election is a false doctrine. Also, the fact that God loved us before we ever loved Him stands in stark contrast to the false doctrine of generic conditional election as described by Van, where Van says that God elects those who love Him, which can be nothing but a reward for right behavior. Scripture prohibits such a view.

 

[holdon]

but the Greek word apo
can also be translated as "before", so it is obvious that Van is grasping at straws.

It is you who appears to be grasping at straws. "apo" is not "before". Complete nonsense on your part.

 

[Philip]

Van also tries to make a place to stand by saying that the word "from" means that it was not before, but the Greek word apo
can also be translated as "before", so it is obvious that Van is grasping at straws.

I can not recall one time when I have seen apo translated as 'before'. Could you offer an example of this, preferably one from Scriptures?

 

[Van]

Yet another silly argument, of course God loves us first, His love is from everlasting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Folks, all the RT advocates are saying is they do not believe my view is correct. And that is a given. My understanding of Ephesians 1:4 fits perfectly with James 2:5 and 2 Thess 2:13. This view of scripture resolves the paradoxs created by inferring Ephesians 1:4 is referring to forseen individuals with or without faith.

May God bless