Generic Oranges

[Van]

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

back to oranges and stuff ;

God looked into my heart and saw only corruption ........... and then He amazingly chose me !


The same goes for all believers.

And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior's blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

'Tis mystery all: th' Immortal dies!
Who can explore his strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.

He left his Father's throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam's helpless race.
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in him, is mine;
alive in him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.

 

[Van]

God looked into your deceitful heart and saw that you believed in Him. His plan was to save sinners who believed in their heart that Jesus rose from the dead, that Jesus was the Anointed One, the Christ, and that Jesus is God incarnate, the Son of God, God the Son.
Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, the Ark of Salvation.

 

[nobdysfool]

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted.

Really? What if the grocer had no oranges, but only grapefruit?

But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

The analogy collapses apart at this point, because the obvious assumption is that you will choose the oranges (if there are any) based on the "orange-ness" of the oranges, which indicates that they inherently possess the qualities you have decided you desire. Your choice of oranges in the store is based on some being "better" than others, is it not?

Such is not the case with God's Election of individuals, because He chose them NOT according to any qualities inherent within them, but according to His own Counsel and Will, because He chose to choose those particular individuals. If God choose us based on something we possess, then we have cause to boast and to consider ourselves "better" than others, because God chose us and didn't choose the others.

Scripture specifically forbids this view.

Eph 1:3-6 MKJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; (4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.

The reason given is "according to the good pleasure of His will", not any inherent qualities in those chosen. And your generic election theory demands that the individuals who become the Elect actually elect themselves by choosing Christ, and THEN God considers them Elect. This is not scriptural.

Rom 11:29-36 MKJV For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (30) For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief, (31) even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy. (32) For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all. (33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! (34) For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? (35) Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him? (36) For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen.

Titus 3:3-7 MKJV For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. (4) But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, (5) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (6) whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (7) that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer.

Generic election is a mistaken view of scripture.

God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

If you are a "perfect orange in the orange crate of God", it is because He has MADE you perfect, AFTER He chose you. You possessed no inherent qualities of perfection, else you would have no need of a Redeemer. It was not any inherent quality in you which compelled Him to choose you, quite unlike your choice of the oranges. And, as the oranges don't jump from the display into your crate, you did not make yourself one of the Elect by your choice of Him.

Individual, Particular Election is the teaching of scripture.

 

[Van]

Folks, pay no attention to the advocates of RT presentation of my view, read my post and judge for yourselves.

I presented my understanding of the meaning of being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. No alternate meaning has been presented. QED

My choice of the individual oranges is conditional according to the counsel of my will. According to scripture, I do not pick the best according to the worlds value system, but I do choose the ones that suit my purpose such as described in James 2:5.

 

[nobdysfool]

Folks, pay no attention to the advocates of RT presentation of my view, read my post and judge for yourselves.

Already done, and found wanting. And your view wasn't re-stated or altered, it was answered in place, based on your own words, not an interpretation of them. I used your own analogy against you, because it was flawed and inaccurate. I showed exactly where it fell apart, and why.

I presented my understanding of the meaning of being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. No alternate meaning has been presented. QED

And I showed exactly where it fell short, and did not accurately express the truth. To say that no alternative view was presented is a willful ignoring of what has been posted. In short, to say that it wasn't answered is a lie.

 

[cygnusx1]

Folks, pay no attention to the advocates of RT presentation of my view, read my post and judge for yourselves.

roughly translated ........ "folks ignore all calvinists and listen to ME"!

I presented my understanding of the meaning of being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. No alternate meaning has been presented. QED

IT HAS BEEN PRESENTED BUT SOMEONE HERE WANTS OTHERS TO IGNORE IT !

My choice of the individual oranges is conditional according to the counsel of my will. According to scripture, I do not pick the best according to the worlds value system, but I do choose the ones that suit my purpose such as described in James 2:5.

God chooses the worst , least likely , and unable for His table , and the reason for this selection is spelled out in 1 Corinthians , :To shame the wise and to destroy the wisdom of this world and to bring to nothing those that glory in themselves......... QED!

 

[Van]

Have you heard the one about Ben Franklin? He made a list of virtues, and at a friends behest, added humility. Sometime later the friend asked how Ben was doing on building the listed virtues into his life. Ben allowed he had not been successful with humility, but, Ben observed, it is just as well, because if he had been successful with humility, he was sure he would have been proud of it.

Can you hear the laughter in heaven when the RT advocates say their view is less boastful than mine, they were chosen due to the secret counsel of God's will, but what ever it was, they boast they know what it was not, it was not a wretched sinner trusting in Jesus.

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

Have you heard the one about Ben Franklin? He made a list of virtues, and at a friends behest, added humility. Sometime later the friend asked how Ben was doing on building the listed virtues into his life. Ben allowed he had not been successful with humility, but, Ben observed, it is just as well, because if he had been successful with humility, he was sure he would have been proud of it.

Cute, but meaningless.

Can you hear the laughter in heaven when the RT advocates say their view is less boastful than mine, they were chosen due to the secret counsel of God's will, but what ever it was, they boast they know what it was not, it was not a wretched sinner trusting in Jesus.

What a mistaken and willfully false characterization of the Truth of scripture. In reality the scene in heaven is one of sad incredulity that a child of God could understand the Calvinist position so completely wrongly.

No Calvinist or RT advocate has ever stated that God chose us based on our choice of Him, which is what your view states. Your view is anti-scriptural and makes God a respector of persons, because you believe that His choice was based on our foreseen choice of Him.

The RT view is that God chose us according to His own Wise Counsel, not because we would choose Him, but so that we COULD choose Him, because we were completely unable to do so, and would never have doen so even if we were able. He saved us, not because we chose Him, but in spite of the fact that we not only would not, but could not choose Him,. Therefore RT advocates do not boast in our salvation, we give all praise, glory, and honor to Him for saving us in spite of ourselves, and our retchedness. We have nothing to boast of, and everything to give thanks to Him for.

Generic Election advocates on the other hand are the ones who boast that God saved them because they chose Him. They were smart enough, wise enough, and perceptive enough to choose God, and He rewarded them by saving them.

There's the source of the laughter you imagine is in heaven.

 

[cygnusx1]

Have you heard the one about Ben Franklin? He made a list of virtues, and at a friends behest, added humility. Sometime later the friend asked how Ben was doing on building the listed virtues into his life. Ben allowed he had not been successful with humility, but, Ben observed, it is just as well, because if he had been successful with humility, he was sure he would have been proud of it.

Can you hear the laughter in heaven when the RT advocates say their view is less boastful than mine, they were chosen due to the secret counsel of God's will, but what ever it was, they boast they know what it was not, it was not a wretched sinner trusting in Jesus.

I think you are getting mixed up van .

I am certain a wretched sinner trusting in Christ is the way a sinner is saved ............. why God should choose such is to shame the wise .

I think it's absolutely wonderful that God should shame the wise , take their wisdom and belittle it , and by choosing the ignorant , none seekers and refuse of this world really mock the able while humbling the things that are of no account ........... awesome!!!

Just like when God killed Goliath by the hand of a shepherd boy , and some think David had great ability , he had none , that is why God chose him for this job . it was not in David's own power and will but in the Lord , it was all of God's doing !

 

[nobdysfool]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

One definition of an unbalanced mind is to do the same thing over and over again, and expect a different outcome each time.

Shall I once again dissect this post? I don't think it's necessary, as I have already done so earlier in the thread. Folks, pay no attention to Van trying to deflect from the analysis done to his original post. Restating it does not establish it as truth. Van apparently doesn't handle criticism well, and counts on people not taking the time to read from the beginning.

 

[Van]

Folks, now that Ephesians 1:4 has been presented as not teaching individual election before the foundation of the world, would you like to consider the RT view? In you minds, translate "in Him" as "individually" in Ephesians 1:4. The question we must ask ourselves is which view actually reflects the text?

 

[Van]

Here is how to understand Ephesians 1:4.

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. In the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we stay in the crate forever perfect. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

"Here is how to understand Ephesians 1:4." van

orange crates and generic , or is that genetic , yes van's "Genetic Oranges" they are a specail variety that can choose to be grapefruits!


Hi Folks !!!

 

[nobdysfool]

Folks, now that Ephesians 1:4 has been presented as not teaching individual election before the foundation of the world, would you like to consider the RT view? In you minds, translate "in Him" as "individually" in Ephesians 1:4. The question we must ask ourselves is which view actually reflects the text?

Apparently Van thinks that each verse of scripture is a self-contained, complete doctrinal statement which can stand on its own. Such is not the case with scripture. Scripture also teaches that ALL things are of Him, through Him, and to Him. That would include Election.

Being chosen in Him does not mean that the choice was not individual. But to reconcile the mistaken idea that Election is based on foreseen faith, the idea of a generic election is forced on the text to avoid the obvious contradiction. To insist that God did not have specific individuals in mind is without warrant, because all through the Bible, God shows that he is very aware of individuals, and deals with individuals. He chose Abraham, he didn't sit and wait to see who would volunteer. God chooses individuals not based on their qualifications or inherent suitability for His will, but in order that He will fit them and enable them to do His will. Moses could barely speak. Abraham had a problem with lying to protect his own hide. David had a problem with lust, and was a murderer. Jacob had a problem with deceit. Paul (Saul) was a murderer and a persecuter. Peter was impetuous and given to extremes. God chooses the weak and despised things to confound the strong and the well-regarded, and to bring them to nothing.

In your orange analogy, if you're choosing oranges as God chose people, to be scriptural you would have to choose the unripe, the rotten, the bruised and unattractive oranges. You would have to choose the oranges that no one else wants, the ones which are thrown into the dumpster out back.

Your orange analogy didn't indicate your intent to do so, but rather your intent to find oranges that were ALREADY suited to your purpose (and unless that purpose was to hurl them at Calvinists, you were not choosing the worst, but the best).

God doesn't use the self-contained, but rather the self-abased, the ones who have nothing in themselves to offer, the refused and the refuse.

Individual Election based on God's own Counsel and Will, and not on foreseen faith or inherent ability, is the teaching of scripure, despite Van's insistence that it is not. QED

 

[cygnusx1]

Apparently Van thinks that each verse of scripture is a self-contained, complete doctrinal statement which can stand on its own. Such is not the case with scripture. Scripture also teaches that ALL things are of Him, through Him, and to Him. That would include Election.

Being chosen in Him does not mean that the choice was not individual. But to reconcile the mistaken idea that Election is based on foreseen faith, the idea of a generic election is forced on the text to avoid the obvious contradiction. To insist that God did not have specific individuals in mind is without warrant, because all through the Bible, God shows that he is very aware of individuals, and deals with individuals. He chose Abraham, he didn't sit and wait to see who would volunteer. God chooses individuals not based on their qualifications or inherent suitability for His will, but in order that He will fit them and enable them to do His will. Moses could barely speak. Abraham had a problem with lying to protect his own hide. David had a problem with lust, and was a murderer. Jacob had a problem with deceit. Paul (Saul) was a murderer and a persecuter. Peter was impetuous and given to extremes. God chooses the weak and despised things to confound the strong and the well-regarded, and to bring them to nothing.

In your orange analogy, if you're choosing oranges as God chose people, to be scriptural you would have to choose the unripe, the rotten, the bruised and unattractive oranges. You would have to choose the oranges that no one else wants, the ones which are thrown into the dumpster out back. Your orange analogy didn't indicate your intent to do so, but rather your intent to find oranges that were ALREADY suited to your purpose. God doesn't use the self-contained, but rather the self-abased, the ones who have nothing in themselves to offer, the refused and the refuse.

absolutely right brother , and we know why that is don't we , so that no human might boast in the presence of God

"Look at me , I had faith when they had unbelief" ...
"look what I achieved with my faith" ...
"if only those miserable sinners had been clever enough , sincere enough and willing enough to believe like me , they would not be lost " ..........
"look at my quality descision folks , God is so pleased with me "

and with that approach the Arminian / humanist / anti-Calvinist doesn't even see the problem ................. I mean surely God doesn't mind shairing His Glory with us , I mean come on if it wasn't for US , God couldn't save us right .............

Individual Election is the teaching of scripure, despite Van's insistence that it is not. QED

you might even see Van acknowledge that personal election takes place ......... but he seperates corporate Election and personal election and makes the two stand upon different principles , they have very little in common , and this view is way too complicated to arrive at naturally ..............

I am kind of amazed why anyone would get upset by personal Election , like it was something bad ............ I think it is acknowledged by many Christians who just avoid it's counter-part .

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

The meaning of Ephesians 1:4 has been presented with contextual clarity. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him, and does not say we were chosen as foreseen individuals.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

The meaning of Ephesians 1:4 has been presented with contextual clarity. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him, and does not say we were chosen as foreseen individuals.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

Repetition of that which has been refuted which ignores what has been refuted is the mark of the obstinate, stiff-necked and unteachable. Van won't deal with the nuts and bolts of the refutation, but rather reposts his same post again and again, as though somehow it will change from being wrong to being right.

Van apparently also believes in magic....

Since Romans 11:36 shows that all things are of Christ , through Christ, and to Christ, it is not unusual that Paul would also state in Ephesians that the Elect were chosen in Christ. The alternative would be that somehow the Elect were chosen apart from Christ, which would do the Elect no good, since Christ is their salvation and their Life. So saying that the Elect were chosen in Christ is not a statement that they were not individually chosen, but an indication that their salvation was in view in the choosing, not because they were foreseen to chose Christ, but rather so that they are enabled to choose Christ.

Election is UNTO salvation, not the reward OF salvation, as Van's doctrine leads to.

Of course, Van's answer to this will include the fiction that the unregenerate, whose very life is enmity to God, who is an enemy of God both in thought and action, whose every action is sin, not proceding from faith in Christ, can somehow, while unregenerate, perform an act pleasing to God with a non-existent God-pleasing faith, and somehow obtain salvation apart from God's prior working of Grace, more or less pulling himself out of the miry clay of sin in which he is totally submerged and helpless to free himself from its grip.

As I said, Van apparently also believes in magic.

Van jealously guards his theory, because if any part of it is shown to be false, it all collapses, hence his dogged insistence that no matter how much it is refuted, somehow in his world, it didn't happen and his theory remains intact. hence his repeated posting of the same thing over and over again, as though he is crying out "Re-do", and resetting the machine for yet another run.

It's kind of funny, really....

 

[ian90]

Hmm actually I think Van does have a point here:

Folks, now that Ephesians 1:4 has been presented as not teaching individual election before the foundation of the world, would you like to consider the RT view? In you minds, translate "in Him" as "individually" in Ephesians 1:4.

The verses in dispute:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:3-5


Reformed theology does read the chosenness before the foundation of the world as "an individual chosen before the foundation of the world to be placed into Christ".

Now we call agree that through faith we share in Christ's body, death, resurrection - the whole shebang.

I think that Paul is writing to Christians who share in Christ's election which occured before the foundation of the world. Put simply they are "chosen in Christ" because they are in Christ. I don't think the idea that they were chosen to be put into Christ is being put forward. Paul continually stresses salvation by faith, not election. After all, salvation by election was the mistake the Jews ended up making. They lost this election because of their lack of faith.

Predestination is mentioned straight after. This needs (and has had it's own thread) but anyway 2 questions need to be asked before any conclusions are drawn:

1) Generic or individual predestination?

2) Conditional (faith+grace) or unconditional (grace) predestination?

My use of the term "Generic predestination" means this: God had always planned to expand the covenant he had with his special people (Jews) to the rest of the world. Jews were predestined to be God's chosen people in the same way the Gentiles were predestined to be God's chosen people. So the us Paul refers to is Gentiles and Jews alike, not simply Christians. I think it will be very hard to prove which group he meant in a way that will convince everyone... both make sense in the context, though for me Romans 9-11 leads me to think general predestination is more likely since I think Paul quite clearly refers to nations when dealing with predestination there.

Hmmm I love this stuff. Our God is a genius.