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Generic Oranges

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nobdysfool

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Philip said:
I can not recall one time when I have seen apo translated as 'before'. Could you offer an example of this, preferably one from Scriptures?

I will see if I can find one tonight, when I have access to my resources. However, it really doesn't matter, other than I was answering Van's silly idea that "from" somehow excluded Election. The nmaes in the Book of Life have been there isnce the beginning. there are no "TBD" (to be determined) entries in that Book. That fact alone disproves Van's false doctrine of generic conditional election.

Van also stated that under his theory, God chooses ( or elects) those who love Him, which can only be seen as a reward for "correct" behavior, and consititues a work on man's part, and an obligation on God's part. If it is of works, it is no more faith, but works, as Paul says.

Van's logic falls apart on close examination, and all of his bluff and bluster do not hide that clear fact. His generic conditional election doctrine is fiction and false.
 
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Van

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Folks, there is no credible resource that says "apo" can be translated as before. The idea is "out of" and you cannot be out of something before the something exists. QED No one should pay any attention to the unsupported assertions of NBF. Yes you can find the odd isolated mistranslation within the literature, but no supporting scholarship.

NBF says it does not matter that Rev 13:8 and 17:8 indicate that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to individual election. In fact, they demonstrate Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to individual election of the lost, and can only refer to the individual election of Christ.

So Generic Oranges appears to be supported by many scriptures, among them James 2:5, 2 Thess 2:13, Rev 13:8, and Rev 17:8. On the other side, zip.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Van said:
Hi, the Greek is on my side, it says first fruit. You can look it up. I have none nothing wrong, but instead have presented the correct view of 2 Thess 2:13 which proves your view is mistaken.

.

Really, it makes no matter Van, since the predestination of all the Elect is clearly taught throughout the entirety of Scripture.

Romans 8;
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

When Paul speaks of "firstfruits", he is speaking of the first century Christians who are firstfruits of the Spirit in the fulfilling of Ezekiel 36 in the Church;

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Thus there is a continuity between Israel and the Church in which there is fulfillment of the Ezekiel Promise to Israel in the renewed Congregation of God.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Van said:
Folks, there is no credible resource that says "apo" can be translated as before. The idea is "out of" and you cannot be out of something before the something exists. QED No one should pay any attention to the unsupported assertions of NBF. Yes you can find the odd isolated mistranslation within the literature, but no supporting scholarship.

NBF says it does not matter that Rev 13:8 and 17:8 indicate that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to individual election. In fact, they demonstrate Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to individual election of the lost, and can only refer to the individual election of Christ.

So Generic Oranges appears to be supported by many scriptures, among them James 2:5, 2 Thess 2:13, Rev 13:8, and Rev 17:8. On the other side, zip.

It appears so, only because it begins with the false assumption that Scripture contradicts itself.

John 15:16


16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Van has to assume that Jesus is confused there.

Joshua 11:20

20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Van has to assume that God did not predestine the utter destruction of those enemies of Israel and God. It must have been an afterthought of God's, planning on the fly, reacting to earthly circumstances rather than with Divine Providence and Purpose.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Van said:
Folks there are two variant renderings of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I have posted both the NASB version which contains the phrase "from the beginning" and ESV version which contains the prase "as first fruits." Both renderings indicate we were chosen individually at the start of our life in Christ. None support the idea of being chosen before creation.

LOL, it is simply silly to think that God waits until we are born to choose His own, rather than as the Eternal Father, Omniscient, Sovereign, Providential, who works all things according to the counsel of His Own Will, did not choose His own before Creation.

Tell us something Van, does time mean anything to the Eternal God?
 
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cygnusx1

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For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear ....... for the rest it is not for you.

The Church's Subsistance in Christ before Creation

Proverbs 8

8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Ephesians 1:1-14 (New International Version)




Ephesians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
 
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cygnusx1

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Nothing is new under the sun , Van's theory has been dealt with ........ approx 400 years ago... by the Puritan Doctor THOMAS GOODWIN

"There is a third interpretation which some of our divines do give As, 1.) That we are said to be elected in Christ in time to come. We are not elected, say they, as being in Christ when elected, or by election put into Christ, but elected to be in Christ in the fullness of time. And therefore,
2.) They join this, 'elected in Christ,' with the words that follow, 'that we should be holy, and without blame before him in love.' So as the meaning of this interpretation tends only to this, that Jesus Christ is the great instrument to convey all the blessings to us which God hath decreed for us; that he is the great means indeed that God hath ordained, and the cause of all things that God hath appointed us unto. But he hath nothing to do with what concerneth the act of election itself. This, 'in him,' hath not relation so much to the act of God's choosing, as either to the blessings to be conveyed by him, which God hath chosen us unto; or else to show that our future being in him is the terminus of that act of election. And so the whole that this place holds forth is no more in effect but what that in 1 Thess. 5:9 says, where you read that, 'God hath appointed us to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.' Mark it, the apostle there says, not that Jesus Christ, as God-man, hath any influence into the act of ordaining, but comes in only as a means subserving that act, to accomplish and bring about those ends which God in his decrees did pitch upon. The salvation God appointed us unto he ordained us to obtain by Jesus Christ. So, then, 'he hath elected us in Christ to be holy,' that is, say they, in the fullness of time to be in him, and to be made holy in him, and he is to be the cause of our holiness. This is the other sense of his choosing us in Christ.
And, to explain their meaning, in the decrees of election there are two things to be considered,
1.) The act itself, which is immanent, and remaineth in God himself, and floweth from himself from all eternity.
The terminus, or the things that are decreed to be, or to be brought to pass. Or, to express it in the same terms which I used and observed out of the third verse, there is the act of blessing itself, and there are the blessings wherewith we are blessed.
Now, when it is here said, that we are elected in Christ, that same, 'in him,' refers not, say they, to the act itself, as if it had any dependency on him, but only has relation to the things ordained by that act. And so they say that Christ is the foundation of election, he is appointed in election to be the cause of. In a word, that God hath ordained that we should have them all in Christ, but hath not in Christ ordained us, and them to us.
So that now this is the great and universally acknowledged glory given to Jesus Christ on all hands, that though God wholly and entirely reserveth to himself the glory of the act of choosing us, yet all the things that he chooses us to, his Son, (as God man), is the cause of. He comes in between election and the things, and we are ordained to have them all in him, even to obtain faith, grace, heaven, and all in Christ, as the deserver and purchaser of them. And it is a great glory that is given to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, that God should set him up as the great engine to work all by. This I say, is the third interpretation.
But though this be most true, and is one great part of the meaning of these words, yet this is not all, or the whole, as I shall prove by these three or four reasons; which, when I have done, I will show you what I apprehend is to make up the full and clear scope and meaning of them. I shall only mention what reasons the text affordeth.
First, therefore, if you interpret the words, 'he hath chosen us in him,' that is, to be in him, you put in, 'to be,' which is not in the text. Whereas this is the plain reading of the words, 'he hath chosen us in him;' and therefore if there be a sense wherein it may be absolutely said, as referring to the act of election itself, that we were chosen in him, without putting in any such words, it would be much fairer.
Secondly, it is said, 'he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.' Who, therefore, would not refer this, 'in him,' unto, 'before the foundation of the world,' as well as that the act of choosing us to have been before the foundation of the world: and so God chose us then in him? Whereas if that had been the meaning, he only chose us to be in Christ in future times which were to come after the foundation of the world, the expression, 'in him,' should have come in after those words, 'the foundation of the world,' as well as the thing itself does. But, 'he chose us in him before the foundation of the world;' so as, 'in him,' seemeth to refer as well to, 'before the foundation of the world,' as to God's choosing us before the foundation of the world.
Thirdly, whereas it is said, that, 'in him,' referreth to the words following, 'that we should be holy and without blame,' etc., we see here is a mighty chasma, a great gulf between these two, 'choosing us in him,' and, 'that we should be holy:' for here is, 'before the foundation of the world,' comes between. If, indeed, the Apostle had said, 'he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world, in him that we should be holy,' etc., or, 'that we should be holy in him,' there had then been some colour for it. But he saith plainly, 'he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.' 'In him,' cometh in before, 'the foundation of the world.' So that it seemeth this, 'in him,' refers to the act of choosing.
Fourthly, and then again there is this fourth great reason for it: he had said in the third verse, 'he hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Christ,' and then in the fourth and fifth verses he instanceth in election and predestination. Sicut elegit, as if he had said, for example's sake, or for explanation's sake, to give you an instance, 'according as he hath elected us in him.' Now, mark it by this coherence: either election is taken for the act of blessing us, as I said before, or for a blessing wherewith God hath blessed us. And if either of both, it is enough for the thing in hand; it must be in Christ, and this before the foundation of the world. And so we were elected in Christ then, as well as justified in Christ in the fullness of time.
And then, Fifthly, I find that other scriptures do back this interpretation, that, 'in him,' should have relation not only to the things decreed us, as the cause of them, but have reference to the act itself of choosing. And this not only that scripture I before mentioned, 2 Tim. 1:9, 'He hath given us grace in Christ before the world was,' but also that in the third of this Epistle, ver. 11, 'according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ.' Mark it: 'in Christ,' comes in that place not only for the thing purposed, but in relation to the purpose itself; and this purpose is eternal, 'according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ.' So that, 'choosing us in him,' the meaning is not only, to be in him in the fullness of time, or that he should be the cause of all the things unto which we are chosen only; but the choice itself, in some sense or other, is in him, that is, the act itself, 'according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ.'
And then, for those places that are quoted to interpret it, which I before mentioned, as that in 1 Thess. 5:9, 'He hath appointed us to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,' which, say they, is all plainly not all one, and that for two reasons. For, (1). In that place of the Thessalonians there comes in, 'to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ;' but not so here. Had he said so here, that, 'he hath chosen us to obtain election,' or, 'to be holy in Christ,' then I confess it had been plain; but he only saith, 'he hath chosen us in him,' and then comes in, 'that we should be holy before him in love;' and those words, 'before the foundation of the world,' comes between both.
And then, (2). There is a great deal of difference between God's doing a thing in Christ and through Christ. It is Zanchie's observation, that when God is said to do a thing in Christ, it usually notes out some one of those immanent acts of God towards us, that passed between him and Christ for us when they were alone, before we existed, and Jesus Christ was a Common Person representing us all, and God gave all to Christ for us; as it is said, 'the grace that was given us in Christ before the world was.' But the things that God doth, 'through Christ,' which is the phrase in the Thessalonians, are usually some transient acts of God's towards us, or those things which he actually performs and applies to us through Christ, and saves through Christ; but he chooses in Christ. So that to choose in him, is not all one with that which the Apostle saith, 'he hath ordained us to obtain salvation through Christ.'

http://gracetruthministries.com/tgoodwinelectedinchrist.html
 
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Van

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Really, it makes no matter Van, since the predestination of all the Elect is clearly taught throughout the entirety of Scripture.


No, it is my view that is clearly taught throughout the entirety of scripture. Thus far, every verse offered in defense of the RT view of Ephesians 1:4, has in fact demonstrated that individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives.

Lets go through Romans 8 one more time. Romans 8 supports my view and demonstrates your view is mistaken.
In verse 28, we see that the folks in view are born again Christians, thus they have already be individually chosen and placed in Christ. So the entire passage is dealing with our life in Christ, and not with being placed in Christ.

In verse 29 the phrase, for whom He foreknew refers back to those who have been placed in Christ. The idea of "foreknew" is that action was taken according to a prior plan. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He established His plan to redeem believers in Christ. Thus those He foreknew refers to the believers God had placed in Christ according to foreknowledge, according to His prior plan.

Next, God predestined who? Those already in Christ. He did not predestine folks to be placed in Christ, we are talking about folks already in Christ and once in Christ, once born again, then we are predestined to two things - to be conformed to the image of Christ and to inherit eternal life, our adoption as sons of God in resurrected bodies. Once in Christ, each of us is called to a Holy Calling, our ministry of reconciliation. And as we walk and stumble in our life in Christ, we have our breastplate of righteousness, all our misteps are justified by the blood of the Lamb. And finally, on that day Jesus will say, welcome home.

In summary, Romans 8 supports my view and is inconsistent with your view.

Yes, that is exactly what Paul means with first fruits, indicating 2 Thess 2:13 is referring to the beginning of our life in Christ, and not back to before creation.

You can deny the clear teaching of scripture and shift the subject to my supposed lack of understanding, but it will not fly. God chooses us individually after we have lived in a fallen separated from God state, just as Peter says. All the scriptures are on my side.
 
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Van

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There is no support in scripture for the subsistence of the Church in Christ before creation. Proverbs 8:22 is talking about the wisdom of the Lord, not individual church members. Thus non-germaine reference being use to create the impression of support. But there is none.

The Thomas Goodwin piece is a discussion of your view, not mine. The elected to be elected dance of RT.
 
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cygnusx1

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Van said:
There is no support in scripture for the subsistence of the Church in Christ before creation. Proverbs 8:22 is talking about the wisdom of the Lord, not individual church members. Thus non-germaine reference being use to create the impression of support. But there is none.

The Thomas Goodwin piece is a discussion of your view, not mine. The elected to be elected dance of RT.

i said it wasn't for everyone!

I know you don't see the meaning in Proverbs 8 (Christ and the Church) ........... all you see is the surface , but others will see and for that I praise The Lord!
 
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nobdysfool

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Philip said:
I can not recall one time when I have seen apo translated as 'before'. Could you offer an example of this, preferably one from Scriptures?

I can provide 2 examples: Acts 7:45, and 1 John 2:28.

Act 7:45 KJV Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

1Jo 2:28 KJV And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


Total occurences of apo in the KJV: 53, sometimes alone and sometimes as a prefix. Strong's number G575, defined as follows:

A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

In both of these verses, the sense is "in front of". The same word, apo in Rev. 13:8 contextually indicates that the names written, and the book itself, are existing from at least the beginning, and since they belong to God, the inference would be from before the beginning. That is the sense in which most reasonable people would understand it. That being the case, the obvious meaning is that the names written in the Book were written at that time, at the beginning. Therefore, generic conditional election collapses, because the names are real names, not place-holders like "TBD". Unconditional Specific Election is what the Bible teaches from cover to cover, and all of the bluff and bluster cannot hide that fact.
 
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nobdysfool

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Van said:
Folks, there is no credible resource that says "apo" can be translated as before. The idea is "out of" and you cannot be out of something before the something exists. QED No one should pay any attention to the unsupported assertions of NBF. Yes you can find the odd isolated mistranslation within the literature, but no supporting scholarship.

Van, I have provided two verses from the KJV Bible in which that is the way the word is translated. So, you are shown to have declared a falsehood. Why? In your haste to condemn me for what I post, You make assertions you can't prove, and that can be proven wrong, as you just did. You presume to tell everyone else here what they should and shouldn't pay attention to, and it seems that it worries you that someone might not believe you, so your constant scramble to have the last word, and to cast aspersions and scorn on those who oppose your false doctrines.

Van said:
NBF says it does not matter that Rev 13:8 and 17:8 indicate that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to individual election. In fact, they demonstrate Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to individual election of the lost, and can only refer to the individual election of Christ.

Van also presumes to tell people what I have said, or what I mean, as though they couldn't see that for themselves. But Van, like the Liberal media and Liberal Politicians, must always tell us what was really said, just like those same Liberal politicians and media must follow the President's speeches to tell the public what he really said, which is a complete and utter distortion and twisting of what was actually said.

The sad fact is that Van has misrepresented Reformed Doctrine at almost every turn, and made false statements about what I believe, and what RT teaches. When called to account, he deflects and refuses to admit fault or guilt for lying.

Van said:
So Generic Oranges appears to be supported by many scriptures, among them James 2:5, 2 Thess 2:13, Rev 13:8, and Rev 17:8. On the other side, zip.

Van thinks that if he repeats something long enough, it will magically become true. I have presented plenty of scripture, and shown where Van's false ideas fall apart, yet he claims that his doctrine is not broken, and I have presented nothing. If this weren't so serious, it might be funny, but Van has been caught in several falsehoods in this thread, yet he still claims that he has proven his doctrine, without directly answering what has been revealed against it. He has never directly answered the evidence against his doctrine.

I trust the readers are intelligent and discerning enough to see who is speaking truth, and who is blowing smoke.
 
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nobdysfool

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Van said:
[/font]

No, it is my view that is clearly taught throughout the entirety of scripture. Thus far, every verse offered in defense of the RT view of Ephesians 1:4, has in fact demonstrated that individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives.

Lets go through Romans 8 one more time. Romans 8 supports my view and demonstrates your view is mistaken.
In verse 28, we see that the folks in view are born again Christians, thus they have already be individually chosen and placed in Christ. So the entire passage is dealing with our life in Christ, and not with being placed in Christ.

In verse 29 the phrase, for whom He foreknew refers back to those who have been placed in Christ. The idea of "foreknew" is that action was taken according to a prior plan. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He established His plan to redeem believers in Christ. Thus those He foreknew refers to the believers God had placed in Christ according to foreknowledge, according to His prior plan.

Next, God predestined who? Those already in Christ. He did not predestine folks to be placed in Christ, we are talking about folks already in Christ and once in Christ, once born again, then we are predestined to two things - to be conformed to the image of Christ and to inherit eternal life, our adoption as sons of God in resurrected bodies. Once in Christ, each of us is called to a Holy Calling, our ministry of reconciliation. And as we walk and stumble in our life in Christ, we have our breastplate of righteousness, all our misteps are justified by the blood of the Lamb. And finally, on that day Jesus will say, welcome home.

In summary, Romans 8 supports my view and is inconsistent with your view.

Yes, that is exactly what Paul means with first fruits, indicating 2 Thess 2:13 is referring to the beginning of our life in Christ, and not back to before creation.

You can deny the clear teaching of scripture and shift the subject to my supposed lack of understanding, but it will not fly. God chooses us individually after we have lived in a fallen separated from God state, just as Peter says. All the scriptures are on my side.


Once again, Van just declares , "I'm right, because I say I am, and no one has shown me to be wrong, because I say so"!

He offers no proof, just declares that he is right. Plenty of proof has been offered, but he believes that he can just dismiss it without having to actually answer it, by simple declaring that he is right.

The proof has been shown, and Van's false doctrine has collapsed in a heap, whether he admits it or not.
 
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nobdysfool

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Van said:
There is no support in scripture for the subsistence of the Church in Christ before creation. Proverbs 8:22 is talking about the wisdom of the Lord, not individual church members. Thus non-germaine reference being use to create the impression of support. But there is none.

Then you deny God's Omniscience, and completely miss the fact that before God created anything, it all existed and had reality in His own mind. To deny that is to believe that God did not consider or plan, He just acted with no thought. The Church was His Plan from the beginning, not a "Plan B" because Adam screwed up.

The Church is made up of individuals, known to God from the beginning, because He CHOSE them individually from the beginning.


Van said:
The Thomas Goodwin piece is a discussion of your view, not mine. The elected to be elected dance of RT.

The Thomas Goodwin piece is a refutation of your view. The only one dancing here is you, Van, trying to glue back together your broken false doctrines.
 
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Philip

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nobdysfool said:
I can provide 2 examples: Acts 7:45, and 1 John 2:28.

Act 7:45 KJV Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

1Jo 2:28 KJV And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


Total occurences of apo in the KJV: 53, sometimes alone and sometimes as a prefix. Strong's number G575, defined as follows:

A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

In both of these verses, the sense is "in front of".

And so, translating apo as 'before' in a chronological sense is still unsubstantiated.

The same word, apo in Rev. 13:8 contextually indicates that the names written, and the book itself, are existing from at least the beginning, and since they belong to God, the inference would be from before the beginning.

Not before the beginning. The Greek indicates that it had its origins in the beginning.

That is the sense in which most reasonable people would understand it.

Not Greek-speakers. They would see the two as having a common origin.

That being the case, the obvious meaning is that the names written in the Book were written at that time, at the beginning. Therefore, generic conditional election collapses, because the names are real names, not place-holders like "TBD". Unconditional Specific Election is what the Bible teaches from cover to cover, and all of the bluff and bluster cannot hide that fact.

Let's count the logical errors in your conclusion.
  1. The texts makes no mention of how names are written in the Book of Life. It is not necessary to presume that God selected people in the way Calvinists describe. The same text fits equally well with God writing the book based on what He knew would happen.
  2. Both Revelation 3:5 and 22:19 indicate that it is possible to have one's name removed from the book of life. If we are to go with your understanding of the writing of the book, that any name in it has been in it for all time, the logical conclusion is that initially all names are in it. Those who do not believe are blotted out. This does not fit well with the Calvinist doctrine, and I am sure that Calvinists count this as but a hypothetical. It does, however, fit well with a form of universal condition election. There are probably other methods that fit equally well.
  3. Your argument is based on an interpretation of a metaphor contained in an apocolyptic book. To draw your conclusion, one must first assume your doctrine in order to reach your interpretation. There is little logic in dismissing a theory based on such.
Those three jumped out at me immediately. Perhaps others can find more.
 
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Van

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Folks, as I said, you can find the odd mistranslation of "apo" but no scholarship. Lets look at Acts 7:45. What it literally says is "God drove out from the face of our fathers". Since this is not clear, the translators altered the text. The concept of "face" means the sensory portion of the head, so the idea is drove out from the frontal awarness of our fathers. This then became "drove out before our fathers." YLT is much better, drove out from the presence of our fathers. In conclusion, "apo" is not being directly translated "before" but the expression is being dynamically translated using the idea of out of sight means out from in front of or before the fathers.

Similarly, 1 John 2:28 literally says "and not shrink from Him in His presense. So again some translators, trying to convey the idea of avoiding His awareness by avoiding His "frontal awareness" use the term "before." But it is a dynamic translation of the phrase and not a direct translation of "apo."
 
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Van

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Philip, just a few quick points. Rev 3:5 says Jesus will not erase names, so it is unwarranted, to conclude names are entered and then erased. Could be, but there is no support for the idea in this verse. Rev 22:19 does not mention the book of life, rather the tree of life in the NASB based on the critical text.

My view is that once our names are entered during our physical life, our faith will be protected (1 Peter 1:5) and therefore we will overcome because we are predestined, once in Christ, to inherit eternal life.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Van said:
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No, it is my view that is clearly taught throughout the entirety of scripture. Thus far, every verse offered in defense of the RT view of Ephesians 1:4, has in fact demonstrated that individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives.

Lets go through Romans 8 one more time. Romans 8 supports my view and demonstrates your view is mistaken.
In verse 28, we see that the folks in view are born again Christians, thus they have already be individually chosen and placed in Christ. So the entire passage is dealing with our life in Christ, and not with being placed in Christ.

In verse 29 the phrase, for whom He foreknew refers back to those who have been placed in Christ. The idea of "foreknew" is that action was taken according to a prior plan. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He established His plan to redeem believers in Christ. Thus those He foreknew refers to the believers God had placed in Christ according to foreknowledge, according to His prior plan.

Next, God predestined who? Those already in Christ. He did not predestine folks to be placed in Christ, we are talking about folks already in Christ and once in Christ, once born again, then we are predestined to two things - to be conformed to the image of Christ and to inherit eternal life, our adoption as sons of God in resurrected bodies. Once in Christ, each of us is called to a Holy Calling, our ministry of reconciliation. And as we walk and stumble in our life in Christ, we have our breastplate of righteousness, all our misteps are justified by the blood of the Lamb. And finally, on that day Jesus will say, welcome home.

In summary, Romans 8 supports my view and is inconsistent with your view.

Yes, that is exactly what Paul means with first fruits, indicating 2 Thess 2:13 is referring to the beginning of our life in Christ, and not back to before creation.

You can deny the clear teaching of scripture and shift the subject to my supposed lack of understanding, but it will not fly. God chooses us individually after we have lived in a fallen separated from God state, just as Peter says. All the scriptures are on my side.

You see Van, all you do is make an assertion and claim that assertion is right because you made it.

You do not support your assertion, nor try to defend it when challenged. And I do not think you actually consider the ramifications of your assertions.

For instance, I asked you a vital question concerning the part that time plays in this scenario, and what affect time has on God. Yet you completely ignore that.

When Jesus told the Apostles, "I chose you, you did not choose Me.", is the Eternal God really speaking in terms of time there?

No, Jesus's statement was within the context of the Eternal Covenant made between God the Father and the Son with regard to the elect.

Hebrews 13:20 says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep."

This covenant was made before the universe was created and it consisted of the Father promising to bring to the Son all whom the Father had given the Son. "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day...I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours...Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world" ( John 6:39;17:9,24, NIV).

Jesus's statement of having chosen, is within the context of;

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

These passages clearly show that the Lord is very active in salvation. He did not simply provide the means of salvation, the cross, but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and authority, that He answers to no one, and that He may do as He pleases for whatever reason He chooses. "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:10); "...to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28); "...this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross..." (Acts 2:23).

So, when Scripture says that God declares the end from the beginning and "from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'", Van has to say, "Hold on there God, you cannot do that, you ahve to wait on time and until a man is actually born and living in time to declare him "predestined to salvation" at some point in his physical life, as if God is taken by surprise.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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quot-top-left.gif
Quote
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Originally Posted by: Van
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Thus the YLT reads: 5Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him?
nobdysfool said:
So Van undertakes to correct the Young's Literal Translation. How funny!

There is a very serious problem with that translation and even more serious problem with Van's conclusions, that God chose those who loved Him, which contradicts; 1John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

Therefore, as usual, Van's premise makes salvation a reward for human efforts and merits.
 
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nobdysfool

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Van said:
Folks, as I said, you can find the odd mistranslation of "apo" but no scholarship.

The King James Version of the bible is hardly an "odd mistranslation". I need not say more. Van is blowing smoke.

Van said:
Lets look at Acts 7:45. What it literally says is "God drove out from the face of our fathers". Since this is not clear, the translators altered the text. The concept of "face" means the sensory portion of the head, so the idea is drove out from the frontal awarness of our fathers. This then became "drove out before our fathers." YLT is much better, drove out from the presence of our fathers. In conclusion, "apo" is not being directly translated "before" but the expression is being dynamically translated using the idea of out of sight means out from in front of or before the fathers.

Twist and turn all you want. The word is translated "before" in the KJV, and other translations, so your assertion that it was not is nothing more than a denial of plain truth.

Van said:
Similarly, 1 John 2:28 literally says "and not shrink from Him in His presense. So again some translators, trying to convey the idea of avoiding His awareness by avoiding His "frontal awareness" use the term "before." But it is a dynamic translation of the phrase and not a direct translation of "apo."

Again, the word apo is translated as "before" in the KJV, and other translations, which were not "dynamic equivalent". Van would have us believe that he knows better than the translators of the KJV. While they were not perfect, they did an admirably good job, and the KJV stands as among the best translations of the scriptures.

Van just doesn't like the fact that they won't support his false doctrines without some tweaking and re-wording by Van, and injection of assumptions with no warrant.
 
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