Generic Oranges

[Van]

Apparently you haven't learned a thing while you were away. Every one of your arguments has been shown to be exactly what you say they aren't. Simply declaring that it isn't so doesn't change a thing. Your oranges and the crate analogy falls far short of scriptural accuracy, and your generic election theory has no basis in scripture. It is nothing more than an attempt to get around the truths that you don't want to accept, those of man's inability, and God's absolute sovereignty over the salvation of those whom he has chosen to save, and His choice of them from before Creation.

Pure assertion with nothing offered to substantiate the claim.

The pride of man simply will not accept that he is powerless to effect his own salvation, so he tries to steal a bit of the credit away from God.

This simply an effort to associate the RT view with humility, but by attributing the motive of pride, rather than the motive of presenting the pure gospel of Christ, to the opponents of the RT view, the argument at its core is itself prideful. Why not leave the messengers out and simply address the topic?

Calvinism separates the men from the boys (and the women from the girls), which accounts for why there is so much juvenile and infantile resistance and vitriol thrown at those who preach its truths.

More attacking the opponents of RT, and no substance.

Here is the simple truth: Ehesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. RT assert this means God chose foreseen individuals, as a preselected group, the elect. However since they are conceived in sin, they are not the elect actually mentioned in scripture, they are the "pre-elect" an invention of men.

None of this conforms to the natural reading of the passage. Paul is opening his letter, and is presenting the encouraging news of our position in Christ. "Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God."

Paul starts in verse three saying Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. So how are we blessed? In Christ!!!

What are these blessings? He chose us in Him before creation. When God chose Christ to be our Redeemer, He showed His love for us from eternity, God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. What a blessing!

God's plan from eternity was for Christ to be the lamb, so that in Him, the perfect sacrifice, we would be perfect, holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be an orange in the Orange Crate of God!

God's plan, once we are placed in Christ, is for us to be adopted as sons, through Jesus, according to the kind intentions of His will. His love is from everlasting to everlasting. Oh to be an orange in the Orange Crate of God. To the praise and glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Folks, it all fits perfectly.

 

[nobdysfool]

[/font]
Pure assertion with nothing offered to substansiate the claim.

All one has to do is read through the thread, and see for themselves. There is plenty of substantiation.

This simply an effort to associate the RT view with humility, but by attributing the motive of pride, rather than the motive of presenting the pure gospel of Christ, to the opponents of the RT view, the argument at its core is itself prideful. Why not leave the messengers out and simply address the topic?

Now, Van has gone to assigning motives, as though he could discern the motives of others.

More attacking the opponents of RT, and no substance.

Van doesn't want to admit that the hatred and vitriol employed against Reformed Theology IS in fact juvenile and infantile.

Here is the simple truth: Ehesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. RT assert this means God chosen foreseen individuals, as a preselected group, the elect. However since they are conceived in sin, they are not the elect actually mentioned in scripture, they are the "pre-elect" an invention of men.

Van here shows that he equates elect with already saved, and therefore he equates election with the act of salvation. This is a complete misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of the RT view.

Van has been told repeatedly that Election is UNTO salvation, meaning that the act of God Electing someone does not save them but is God's INTENT to save them. God then Predestines the MEANS to their salvation, as to time, place, circumstances, etc. SO THAT at the appointed time, the individual does trust in Christ, and realizes the election which God had before determined and ordained. Those who are called the Elect in scripture are those who have already realized their pre-ordained election by being saved. But the whole number of the Elect includes those who have not, as yet, come to salvation, but will in their appointed time.

Van mistakenly believes that the to be Elect means to be already saved. Thus his mistaken idea that one becomes Elect after they exercise faith in Christ. Van places God's election at the point of faith, rather than where scripture places it, before the foundation of the world.

None of this conforms to the natural reading of the passage. Paul is opening his letter, and is presenting the encouraging news of our position in Christ. "Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God."

Well, that's not what Paul said, now, is it? See how he injects things into scripture?

Paul starts in verse three saying Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. So how are we blessed? In Christ!!!

Van apparently doesn't realize that the whole Christian life is one of being in Christ. We receive the benefits of forgiveness justification, salvation, and every other blessing by, through, and in Christ. It is our union with Him in spirit that makes His death our death, and His Life our life, and His Righteousness our righteousness. There is no such thing as a Christian who is not in Christ.

From God's perspective, He has already Elected all who will come to salvation, and some already have, some are doing so as we speak, and some have yet to do so, but will because His election of them is sure, and His predestination of them will not fail to happen, because no Plan of His can be thwarted.

Van injects his own twist of meaning into these passages, to make them say things they don't actually say.

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

Ephesians 1:4 presents the blessing from the Father of being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. When God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, He expressed His love for those who would be redeemed, thus God's love is from everlasting to everlasting.

What are these blessings? He chose us in Him before creation. When God chose Christ to be our Redeemer, He showed His love for us from eternity, God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. What a blessing!

God's plan from eternity was for Christ to be the lamb, so that in Him, the perfect sacrifice, we would be perfect, holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be an orange in the Orange Crate of God!

God's plan, once we are placed in Christ, is for us to be adopted as sons, through Jesus, according to the kind intentions of His will. His love is from everlasting to everlasting. Oh to be an orange in the Orange Crate of God. To the praise and glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

I am baffled by van's posts ..................

he seems to be openly saying God chose us (we are chosen) in Christ before the foundation of the world ........... Election before time!

then he seems to be wanting to make that say


chosen means loved .............


so God didn't choose us he just loved us ............

this is reduction , it is not what the text says , it is van saying 'look I agree we are chosen in Christ but that just means loved'!

bait and switch , bait and switch .............


hi folks !!

 

[nobdysfool]

Van will not address the issues raised, but merely reposts the same stuff again, as though no refutation had been given. Repetition does not establish truth.

This entire parable has been dissected and found to be deficient in scriptural acuracy and doctrine. It is based on assumptions such as "generic election": which is not found in scripture, and false accusations of invention of "pre-election" which is founded on the mistaken belief that God elects individuals at the point of salvation, rather than as scripture says, before the foundation of the world.

The whole idea of generic election collapses when it is realized that election can only be of individuals, else the term is meaningless and does violence to the scriptures which show that salvation is individual and personal; not generic and impersonal, only becoming personal when the individual by their own choice and power becomes a believer, as Van would have us believe.

Oh, that men would realize the depth of the sin involved in believing "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil".

 

[Van]

I addressed the context of the passage, the purpose of Ephesians 1:4 in Paul's discussion of our place in Christ.
I do not bait and switch, others say we were chosen individually, but into a group never mentioned in scripture, the pre-elect. I say when we are chosen individually, we are chosen and placed in Christ, thus the elect are in Christ. This is the only view that meshes with scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

I addressed the context of the passage, the purpose of Ephesians 1:4 in Paul's discussion of our place in Christ.
I do not bait and switch, others say we were chosen individually, but into a group never mentioned in scripture, the pre-elect. I say when we are chosen individually, we are chosen and placed in Christ, thus the elect are in Christ. This is the only view that meshes with scripture.

There was no bait and switch, there was serious analysis of your eisegetic conclusions, and explanation of how they did not pass the test of analysis and reason. You have never addressed them.

You refuse to understand what was explained clearly, and your use of the term "pre-elect" shows that you still hold the faulty and wrong idea that election is salvation. Until you let go of that idea and realize that God's election of individuals is His INTENT to save them, and is tied to His Predestination of the means of their salvation (time, circumstances, etc), then you will begin to see the error of your generic election idea (another term which is never mentioned in scripture). The Elect consist of all whom God has chosen to save, regardless of whether they have actually come to salvation in time, because Election is not salvation. The Election is not salvation, and salvation does not elect anyone. You are confusing the terms.

God, in eternity past, chose to save specific individuals whom He foreknew, and then Predestined the actual salvation of them at the appointed time. They were still born as sinners, and remained sinners until the time appointed by God for them to be saved. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[Van]

This entire parable has been dissected and found to be deficient in scriptural acuracy and doctrine.

To the contrary it has been found to be rock solid, a great read, and enlightening. The mystery of Ephesians 1:4 has been explained such that there is no conflict with James 2:5.

The whole idea of generic election collapses when it is realized that election can only be of individuals, else the term is meaningless and does violence to the scriptures which show that salvation is individual and personal; not generic and impersonal, only becoming personal when the individual by their own choice and power becomes a believer, as Van would have us believe.

This is a typical argument, without any merit. God is so small He cannot make plans in general. This is putting God in a box. But God is all-powerful, so saying God is unable to do what He plans is silly. The real question is what is God's plan. So all this God cannot do this or that is grasping at straws.

Salvation is individual and personal, and so is individual election.

Does a person become a believe on his own power? Nope. We have nothing that was not given to us. Our ability to trust in God or in the World is a gift from God. How do we know what to trust in, the gospel of Christ. Is not the gospel message a gift from God, brought by the power of Holy Spirit? Yes of course it is.
So what is our part. What must we do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is scripture, and while not everyone is able to believe and have his or her faith reckoned as righteousness, some of us are able to hear and learn from the Father and come to Christ, John 6:45.

Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose Christ, individually and personnally, and therefore Christ is the Chosen One, chosen to be the Lamb of God, to be the propitiation of the whole world, and therefore everyone God places in Christ was chosen generically before the foundation of the world by virtue of the fact God chose the Redeemer. Therefore He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

 

[Van]

God's individual election of individuals does not indicate His intent to save them. There is no verse that says this. This is pure assertion.

In Romans 11:7 we see that some of the Jews were chosen, becoming God's elect. Note the choice was by grace and not on the bases of works. For by grace through faith are we saved. God's choice was based on faith, just as He chose 7000 who were faithful.

So here is Romans 11, the elect refers to individuals chosen, not to be saved in the future, but as chosen and saved without distinction.

2 Timothy 2:10 says that Paul endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ and with it eternal life.
Here Paul clearly lay out the steps, (1) we are chosen, (2) we are placed in Christ, (3) we obtain etenal life. No delay is mentioned between 1 and 2 and 3.

In 1 Peter 1:1-2 we learn how we are chosen, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. This describes our spiritual baptism into Christ, thus our election occurs after we received the gospel of Christ and are given the right to become children of God born of God.

So you see, the "pre-elect" are no where to be found in scripture. God accepts your faith, and places in you Christ. Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

To the contrary it has been found to be rock solid, a great read, and enlightening. The mystery of Ephesians 1:4 has been explained such that there is no conflict with James 2:5.

Jam 2:5 KJV Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

You are the only one saying it is rock solid and only one other that I know of has said it was a great read or enlightening. Actually, "enlightening" may not be the positive thing you think it is. However, you hardly have an overwhleming majority.

To apply James 2:5 to your faulty analogy would validate my statement that if you chose the oranges the way God chose the elect, you would choose the worst oranges, not the best. Also, those to whom the kingdom is promised (them that love Him) must be seen in the light of 1 John 4:10 and 19. Your so-called "explanation" of Ephesians 1:4 inserts a foreign concept, that of "generic election". Anything having to do with our standing as Christians is always within the context of "In Him".

This is a typical argument, without any merit. God is so small He cannot make plans in general. This is putting God in a box. But God is all-powerful, so saying God is unable to do what He plans is silly. The real question is what is God's plan. So all this God cannot do this or that is grasping at straws.

On the contrary, the fact that God can (and DID) Elect individuals before the foundation of the world underscores His Omniscience much more forcefully than your "generic election" concept. You are the one who says God only made plans in general for redemption, and then fills in the details as it unfolds. Any architect who built a building that way would not be an architect for very long. I'm not putting God in a box, it is you who is doing so. And Your charge that I (or anyone else ) has said that God is unable to do what He plans is a fallacious, untrue charge. It is a lie. I have never said God cannot do this or that, so you're making this fallacious charge up out of thin air.

Salvation is individual and personal, and so is individual election.

This statement does not fit with the rest of your statements, this statement is correct, and validates my criticism of your faulty analogy.

Does a person become a believe on his own power? Nope. We have nothing that was not given to us. Our ability to trust in God or in the World is a gift from God. How do we know what to trust in, the gospel of Christ. Is not the gospel message a gift from God, brought by the power of Holy Spirit? Yes of course it is.

All true.

So what is our part. What must we do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is scripture, and while not everyone is able to believe and have his or her faith reckoned as righteousness, some of us are able to hear and learn from the Father and come to Christ, John 6:45.

But earlier you said that we have nothing that was not given to us, which would inculde the ability to hear and understand the Gospel. So, you must concede that ANY who come, do so by means of the empowering and Grace of God, and not of their own voilition or by their own power.

Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose Christ, individually and personnally, and therefore Christ is the Chosen One, chosen to be the Lamb of God, to be the propitiation of the whole world, and therefore everyone God places in Christ was chosen generically before the foundation of the world by virtue of the fact God chose the Redeemer. Therefore He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Van, you are trying to have it both ways. Christ is God, and chose of His own initiative to redeem those whom the Father gave Him. Every name in the Lamb's Book of Life was written there before the foundation of the world. Therefore each person was individually chosen, elected, and predestined to salvation, before the foundation of the world. There are no"TBD" entries in the Lamb's Book of Life. The names are already there and have been since the world began. That alone disproves generic election, because the individual names were there from the beginning.

Your faulty doctrine has been weighed in the balances, and found wanting. Give it up, Van.

 

[nobdysfool]

God's individual election of individuals does not indicate His intent to save them. There is no verse that says this. This is pure assertion.

If He chose them before the foundation of the world and wrote their names in the Book of Life, that is clearly intent to save, because at the time they were chosen and their names written in the Book, they didn't at that time, yet exist.

Behold the Omniscience and Foreknowledge of God, that He would foreknow, and choose to save, every individual who will inherit the Kingdom, before they even existed. So obviously and logically, Election is the statement of God's intent to save those whom He has Elected UNTO salvation.

In Romans 11:7 we see that some of the Jews were chosen, becoming God's elect. Note the choice was by grace and not on the bases of works. For by grace through faith are we saved. God's choice was based on faith, just as He chose 7000 who were faithful.

Wrong, He did not choose them on the basis of their faith, foreseen or otherwise. Those who believe were already chosen by God. Their belief was not the criteria of His choice, it is the result of His choice. The scripture says, I (God) have reserved to Myself 7000, not I (God) have chosen the 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal. Scripture is understood not only by what it says, but by what it does not say, and how it says what it says. The 7000 did not bow the knee to Baal BECAUSE God had reserved them, not the other way around.

So here is Romans 11, the elect refers to individuals chosen, not to be saved in the future, but as chosen and saved without distinction.

You're grasping at straws, struggling for traction.

2 Timothy 2:10 says that Paul endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ and with it eternal life.
Here Paul clearly lay out the steps, (1) we are chosen, (2) we are placed in Christ, (3) we obtain etenal life. No delay is mentioned between 1 and 2 and 3.

Classic eisegesis, reading into the text what you want it to say. The Elect are those who will hear and receive the Gospel and be saved. We do not know the full number of them, but God does, and He uses us to reach them. Referring to the Elect does not just mean those who are already saved, but also to those who will be saved. Their number was chosen before the foundation of the world and their individual names written in the Book of Life. But they all enter the same way, through faith in Christ, granted by the Grace of God to those whom He has Elected and Predestined unto salvation, to be revealed in time.

In 1 Peter 1:1-2 we learn how we are chosen, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. This describes our spiritual baptism into Christ, thus our election occurs after we received the gospel of Christ and are given the right to become children of God born of God.

No, sanctification here actually refers to God setting the Elect apart unto salvation. Read it again, this time with out the preconceived idea. God's individual Election before Creations is a sanctification, a setting apart of those Elected. if election occurs after we receive Christ, then it is a reward for faith, and as such, works-based.

So you see, the "pre-elect" are no where to be found in scripture. God accepts your faith, and places in you Christ. Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God.

The words aren't found, but the concept is clearly there, despite your refusal to see it. Your analogy is full of holes.

 

[cygnusx1]

God's individual election of individuals does not indicate His intent to save them. There is no verse that says this. This is pure assertion.

this is wrong and carnal reasoning van ......... scripture is crystal ...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation ...."

and please don't start looking for some way around the text....... too many run to the greek or some Arminian commentary to supress God's word.

In Romans 11:7 we see that some of the Jews were chosen, becoming God's elect. Note the choice was by grace and not on the bases of works. For by grace through faith are we saved. God's choice was based on faith, just as He chose 7000 who were faithful.

Neonomianism ........... the opposite extreme of Antinomianism ..... both false.***

We are saved by Grace , faith is purely instrumental as can be seen from many believers moving into fear and unbelief (Abraham Peter etc ) and still being saved ........ why ? Because Grace is what saves us and faith is certainly NOT the basis of Election!


***


Those who are anxious to see an elaborate and very able effort to reconcile the doctrine of justification by works with the grace of God as revealed in the Gospel will find ample satisfaction in the "Harmonia Apostolica" of Bishop Bull. If my limits allowed, I would present an abstract of the work for the purpose of exposing the radical error which pervades the whole system. The Bishop inveighs severely against Pelagianism and those works which are done by the power of nature without the grace of Christ, and denies that even our evangelical obedience possesses any merit in itself; all its value is derived from the merit of Christ. Christ merited, not that we might merit by our works but that we might obtain. We have no strength in ourselves to do good works. This we derive from grace, but the efficacy of grace depends entirely upon our own wills. Now the reigning error of Arminianism, Pelagianism and this Neonomianism -- for they are all substantially the same, they rest upon identically the same principle -- is an utter disregard of the true Scripture doctrine of grace, and a fatal misapprehension of the present condition of man in the sight of God. The friends of these systems will all admit that a man is justified by grace, but when they undertake to explain their meaning, "grace is no more grace."

The source of the error in many minds is the unfounded notion that grace is whatever is opposed to merit. They judge of the former by comparing it with the latter, and hence they suppose that they are contending for salvation by grace when they are only denying salvation by merit. According to the conceptions which we usually frame of merit in our intercourse with one another, it is impossible that man can deserve anything at the hands of his Maker. Wrapped in the blessedness and immensity of His own nature, the Eternal Jehovah stands in no need of any services from us, and our constant dependence upon His benevolence and bounty for all the blessings which we enjoy renders our holiest obedience nothing more than a suitable expression of gratitude. We only give Him of His own. The purest angels that surround His throne strictly and properly speaking deserve nothing at His hands; their joy and blessedness are nothing but the results of unrestrained loving-kindness on His part. To suppose that man can merit any of the blessings of God is just to suppose that the obedience of man is a full equivalent for the favour of his Creator -- that it constitutes a value received, an actual benefit, which God is under a moral obligation to acknowledge. If grace, then, is only that which is opposed to merit, such a thing as salvation by grace in distinction from any other scheme is utterly impossible. The necessary relations subsisting between the creature and the Creator preclude for ever, even from the holiest, the most remote approximations to merit. Hence, every scheme of justification would stand upon the same footing on the score of grace, and one could no more be said to be of grace than another. If Adam had kept his first estate, and secured the fulfillment of the promise to him and his posterity, he would have been just as far from meriting eternal life as the sinner redeemed by Christ, and consequently, according to this absurd conception of the matter, would have been just as much saved by grace. We are not, then, to look into the antithesis of merit for just conceptions of grace.

The Scriptures nowhere speak of the merit of the creature. This idea, unknown to the holy and the good, is to be found only in the hearts of the ruined and the lost. Its only lodgment is in that cage of unclean birds, the unsanctified heart of man. Strange that the wretch who is so far from God, who is dead in trespasses and sins, should enhance his guilt by inflated conceptions of worth! "Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie." To what, then, do the Scripture oppose grace? To works, to works of law. Grace is the opposite of legal obedience. Justification by grace is justification without the deeds of the law. Salvation by grace is salvation which is not of works. "Being justified freely by grace" is used as synonymous with "being justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Rom. 3:24, 28.) Grace and works are clearly opposed in Rom. 11:6: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work." Also in Eph. 2:8, 9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." The nature of a legal dispensation, or a state of proper probation, is that it is one in which God promises eternal life upon condition of obedience to be rendered to a specified law. The very essence of such a state consists in the prescription of conditions. To prescribe the condition is purely an act of sovereignty and grace; to bestow the blessing when the condition has been fulfilled is an act of faithfulness arising only from the obligation which God by His promise has imposed upon Himself. In this way, and in this way only, a Divine blessing may become a matter not of merit, but of debt. Rom. 4:4: "Now, to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." It is due to the obedient by the Divine promise.

http://www.mbrem.com/life/thorn-an.htm

 

[Van]

Salvation is individual and personal, and so is individual election

This statement does not fit with the rest of your statements, this statement is correct, and validates my criticism of your faulty analogy.

To the contrary, this statement fits my view and is at odds with your view. My view is that "chosen in Him" is not an individual election, no individuals exist, all this invention of foreseen individuals is no where found in the text. Therefore the elect refers to God's choice of existent individuals chosen during there lifetime.

1 John 4:10 and 19 have nothing to do with the topic.

I did not insert a foreign concept, my view takes the text straight up. Chosen in Him means He was chosen and we were chosen generically as a consequence. What is foreign is to say chosen in Him means chosen as foreseen individuals without regard to faith in Him. Now that is pooring foreign matter into the text.

But earlier you said that we have nothing that was not given to us, which would inculde the ability to hear and understand the Gospel. So, you must concede that ANY who come, do so by means of the empowering and Grace of God, and not of their own voilition or by their own power.

No your assertion is wrong. My statement addressed our capacity to will to be saved. Your assertion that we cannot will to be saved has no basis in scripture.

Van, you are trying to have it both ways

More attacking me without any substance.

(1)Christ is God - true but not germaine hence smoke

(2)Christ chose of His own initiative to redeem those whom the Father gave Him - complete fiction. No verse will be provided that supports this misrepresentation of scripture. What the bible actually says is God chose His Son to be the Lamb. The Son laid down His own life in accordance with the will of the Father.
The Father gives every individual chosen by God to the Son when God places them in Christ.

(3) Every name in the Lamb's Book of Life was written there before the foundation of the world - And again this is complete fiction. No verse says this or implies this. What scripture actually says is names were not written in the lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world. This is key, the RT view has individual election occuring BEFORE the foundation of the world, yet scripture indicates, if we assume that during the same interval that some names were not written, other names were written, which is reasonable, that we were enrolled in the Lamb's book of life during the time frame from creation to the end of the age. See Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 and note they say from and not before as they would if the RT view was correct.

 

[Van]

God's individual election of individuals does not indicate His intent to save them. There is no verse that says this. This is pure assertion

If He chose them before the foundation of the world and wrote their names in the Book of Life, that is clearly intent to save, because at the time they were chosen and their names written in the Book, they didn't at that time, yet exist.

If God chose individuals before creation, then their names would have been written in the Lamb's book of life before creation, but scripture says names were not written from or since the foundation, proving the RT view in error.

Election is the statement of God's intent to save those whom He has Elected UNTO salvation.

Yes this is RT doctrine. But since scripture not only does not support it, but proves it invalid, the assertion is without merit.
When God chooses us as individuals and places us in Christ - see 1 Corinthians 1:30 - we as individuals become one of the elect. See James 2:5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, those that trust in Christ and not in themselves, those rich in faith, trusting only in Jesus.

Folks the gospel is simple, what must you do to be saved, believe in Jesus, and God has not foreordained who can believe.

 

[cygnusx1]

To the contrary, this statement fits my view and is at odds with your view. My view is that "chosen in Him" is not an individual election, no individuals exist, all this invention of foreseen individuals is no where found in the text. Therefore the elect refers to God's choice of existent individuals chosen during there lifetime.

at long last , now it all makes sense ....... Van thinks none can be elect before they exist ...... because they do not exist!!!! Pure rationalism!
I will pursue this !

I did not insert a foreign concept, my view takes the text straight up. Chosen in Him means He was chosen and we were chosen generically as a consequence. What is foreign is to say chosen in Him means chosen as foreseen individuals without regard to faith in Him. Now that is pooring foreign matter into the text.

so for those who are finding it difficult if not impossible to follow your line of reasoning van , there is no election other than Christ ...... Christ was chosen before the world began .......... but how could He be chosen if the world had not begun yet ? things did not yet exist Van so how can The Messiah be chosen to be the Messiah before the world was formed and before men fell ?
Can you please make sense of your term generic ....... to me generic is something , it is a whole (Church) ...... but all that means is a body made of individuals ........

No your assertion is wrong. My statement addressed our capacity to will to be saved. Your assertion that we cannot will to be saved has no basis in scripture.

"What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all---to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow." - C. H. Spurgeon

 

[Van]

Wrong, He did not choose them on the basis of their faith, foreseen or otherwise. Those who believe were already chosen by God. Their belief was not the criteria of His choice, it is the result of His choice. The scripture says, I (God) have reserved to Myself 7000, not I (God) have chosen the 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal. Scripture is understood not only by what it says, but by what it does not say, and how it says what it says. The 7000 did not bow the knee to Baal BECAUSE God had reserved them, not the other way around.

More misrepresentation of scripture. Just read the text. God chose the 7000 that had not bended knee to Baal, all this stuff about causing them not to bend is not in the text, but is simply an invention.

Folks, it you just study scripture, RT does not fit the text. Again and again the cart is shoved ahead of the horse to fit scripture with RT. The choosing of the 7000 is a case in point. Just read Romans 11:4, where God says I have kept for myself 7000 who have not bended knee. RT says God kept them from bending knee, but do any of you actually think that is what is being said?

Did God action to "keep" occur before the 7000 did not bend knee? Nope, the action is based on choosing those who did not bend knee. See 1 Kings 19:18. Thus God choice is the same, He chooses the faithful that love Him and rely upon Him and believe in Him.

 

[cygnusx1]

(5) Election (as well as reprobation) is individual, personal, specific, particular. Ephesians refers repeatedly to "us" and "we" in connection with election (1:4 - 5, 12). In Romans, Paul refers to "those" whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29 - 30).

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/elect.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

Elect, Election

[SIZE=+2]Advanced Information[/SIZE]
Scripture employs a rich vocabulary to express several aspects of God's sovereign election, choice, and predestination. Five types of election call for distinction.

1. There is only one reference to "the elect angels" (1 Tim. 5:21; cf. 1 Cor. 6:3; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6).
2. Election to service or office is evident in God's sovereign choice of David as Israel's king (1 Sam. 16:7 - 12) and in Jesus' choosing of the disciples and apostles (Luke 6:13; John 6:70; 15:16; Acts 9:15; 15:7).
3. The election of Abraham's descendants to form the theocratic nation of Israel is a common biblical theme (Deut.4:37; 7:6 - 7; 10:15; 1 Kings 3:8; Isa. 44:1 - 2; 45:4; 65:9, 15, 22; Amos 3:2; Acts 13:17; Rom. 9:1 - 5). The election of Israel originated in God's sovereign choice, expressed his covenantal love, and served the goal of redemptive history culminating in Jesus Christ.
4. The election of the Messiah is a fourth type of election. Isaiah referred to the servant of the Lord as "my chosen one" (42:1; cf. Matt. 12:18). Of the Synoptics only Luke refers to Jesus as the Chosen One (9:35; 23:35). Peter echoes another Isaiah reference (28:16) in 1 Pet. 1:20 and 2:4, 6. These references indicate the unique mediatorial office of Christ and the Father's pleasure in him. It is an election basic to the final type,
5. election to salvation, with which the rest of this article is concerned.

The most common NT reference to election is God's eternal election of certain persons to salvation in Jesus Christ. The subject is dealt with comprehensively in Eph. 1:3 - 11 and Rom. 8:28 - 11:36. John Calvin, who became a major defender of the Reformed doctrine, saw the whole doctrine of election summarized in Eph. 1. All the Reformed confessions include divine election, but the Canons of Dort, reflecting the controversy with the Arminians, provide the greatest detail. Election is part of God's eternal decree and it has a soteriological role: "That some in time are given faith by God and that others are not given faith proceeds from His eternal decree" (1.6). Election is then defined as "the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, out of the whole human race, which had fallen by its own fault out of its original integrity into sin and ruin, He has, according to the most free good pleasure of His will, out of mere grace, chosen in Christ to salvation a certain number of specific men, neither better nor more worthy than other, but with them involved in a common misery" (1.7).
Double predestination is the typical Reformed doctrine

The Canons of Dort distinguish election and reprobation because the Scripture "declares that not all men are elect but that certain ones have not been elected, or have been passed by in the eternal election of God. These God out of His most free, most just, blameless, and unchangeable good pleasure has decreed to leave in the common misery into which they have by their own fault plunged themselves, and not to give them saving faith and the grace of conversion" and "finally to condemn and punish them eternally" for all their sins (1.15). Predestination thus includes election and reprobation, and reprobation involves both a sovereign passing by (preterition) and a just condemnation.
Principles of Election

Six main features of election deserve attention.

• (1) Election is a sovereign, eternal decree of God. The elect have been "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (Eph. 1:11). God chose us in Christ "before the creation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). God's sovereign decree is not arbitrary; "in love he predestined us... in accordance with his pleasure and will" (Eph. 1:5; cf. Rom. 8:29). This perspective is reflected in the definition of election quoted above from Dort (1.7).
• (2) The presupposition of God's eternal decree of election is that the human race is fallen; election involves God's gracious rescue plan. It is not based on human works or God's foreknowledge of works (Rom. 9:11). The elect are chosen "to be holy and blameless in his sight"; they are "adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" (Eph. 1:4 - 5). Hence election leads to "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Eph. 1:7). The same perspective is evident in Romans, for those whom "God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" (8:29). The presupposition is that they are fallen, and hence God's predestination includes calling, justification, and glorification. This presupposition, that the fallen race is the object of predestination, reflects the infralapsarian perspective which is also that of the Canons of Dort (cf. I.1,8,15).
• (3) Election is "election in Christ"; election involves rescue from sin and guilt and receiving the gracious gifts of salvation. Election in Christ is evident in the words already quoted from Eph. 1:4 - 5, 11, and Rom. 8:29. Christ is not merely a subsequent means to effectuate a decree of election; election is in Christ and through Christ. This is clearly expressed in the Canons of Dort: "He has. . . chosen in Christ to salvation.... From eternity He has also appointed Christ to be the Mediator and Head of all the elect and the foundation of their salvation. Therefore He decreed to give to Christ those who were to be saved, and effectually to call and draw them into His fellowship through His word and Spirit" (I.7). Thus God's election is in Christ, and Christ is both the foundation of election and the foundation of salvation. Calvin also referred to Christ as the mirror of our election.
• (4) Election involves both the elect's salvation and the means to that end. This is already evident in the repeated references to election in Christ, but it is made even more specific. God chose the elect "to be holy and blameless in his sight, . . . to be adopted as his sons" (Eph. 1:4 - 5); the elect are those whom God "foreknew. . . predestined. . . called. . . justified. . . glorified" (Rom. 8:29 - 30). God chose the elect "to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13). Hence the preaching of the gospel is indispensable in effecting God's election (Rom. 10:14 - 17; cf. Acts 18:9 - 11). The salvation of the elect has its decretive origin before time, is realized through means in history, and culminates in eternal glorification.
  This is echoed in the Canons of Dort: "He decreed to give them true faith in Him, to justify them, to sanctify them, and, after having powerfully kept them in the fellowship of His Son, finally to glorify them, for the demonstration of His mercy and the praise of the riches of His glorious grace" (I.7). This feature of election negates the objection that if one is elect, one will be saved regardless of whether or not one believes. It also excludes the objection that election leads to a libertine spirit; unbelief and careless living are inconsistent with the scriptural doctrine of election.
• (5) Election (as well as reprobation) is individual, personal, specific, particular. Ephesians refers repeatedly to "us" and "we" in connection with election (1:4 - 5, 12). In Romans, Paul refers to "those" whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29 - 30).
  Rom. 9 indicates that personal election unto salvation was operative within the election of Israel. Paul states that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" (9:6, 8) and he shows that "God's purpose in election" distinguished between Isaac and Ishmael, between Jacob and Esau (9:7, 11 - 13). This is also the implication of the expressions in John 6:37 - 40; 10:14 - 16, 26 - 29; 17:2, 6, 9, 24. Hence the Canons of Dort refer to election as the selection of "a certain number of specific men" (I.7) and also state that "not all men are elect but that certain ones have not been elected" but passed by in God's decree (I.15).
  The Westminster Confession expresses this even more emphatically when it refers to the predestined as "particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished" (III.4). The Arminians held to an indefinite, conditional election, the election of those who believe. The Reformed view took the above Scripture references seriously as well as the comforting assurance that nothing "shall separate us from the love of Christ" and that "in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us" (Rom. 8:35 - 39). Particular, personal election leads to the believer's comfort and does not promote carelessness or false confidence.
• (6) Finally, the ultimate goal of election is the glory and praise of God. Election to salvation involves personal privilege, blessing, security, and comfort for the elect. But Scripture makes clear that it is "to the praise of his glorious grace" that everything leads (Eph. 1:6). The elect have been chosen and predestined "in order that we. . . might be for the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:12). God's goal is "to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ" (Eph. 1:10; cf. 1 Pet. 1:1; 2:9; Matt. 13:27 - 30; 24:31). When Paul finished his long discussion of election in Romans, he concluded with doxology (Rom. 11:33 - 36). That praise is also echoed in the Reformed confessions; the final glorification of the elect is "for the demonstration of His mercy and praise of the riches of His glorious grace" (Canons of Dort I.7). The Westminister Confession concludes its discussion of God's eternal decree and predestination with similar words: "So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to those that sincerely obey the Gospel" (III.8).

F H Klooster
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary) Bibliography
G C Berkouwer, Divine Election; L Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination; J Calvin, Institutes 3.21 - 24; P Y De Jong, ed., Crisis in the Reformed Churches: Essays in Commemoration of the Great Synod of Dort, 1618 - 1619; F H Klooster, Calvin's Doctrine of Predestination; B B Warfield, "Predestination," in Biblical Doctrines, "Predestination in the Reformed Confessions," in Studies in Theology, and "Election," in Selected Shorter Writings of B B Warfield, I.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/elect.htm

 

[Van]

this is wrong and carnal reasoning van ......... scripture is crystal ...

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation ...."

and please don't start looking for some way around the text....... too many run to the greek or some Arminian commentary to supress God's word.

First, please do not assert that I avoid the obvious meaning of scripture.

Second, please do not assert that my reasoning is carnal. My reasoning is biblical.

The question before us is what does "from the beginning mean"? We do not need to look at the Greek, but at the context.

We have two questions, is the beginning the beginning of the individuals life in Christ, indicating God's individual election? Or is the beginning the start of creation. Neither view points to before creation, or the tesxt would say before the foundation of the world. But alas it does not. Since no one is putting forth the beginning of creation, we are stuck with the only view left standing, the beginning of the individuals life in Christ.

So what does the verse say? We must repost the verse to avoid the wrong impression created by posting only part of the verse: But we should alway give thank to God for you [ speaking of existent individuals in Christ] brethren beloved by the Lord [again indicating the folks in view are born again in Christ believers] because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation [ we did not choose, God chose you][and how did God choose you for salvation?] through sanctification by the Spirt [God placed you in Christ by the spiritual baptism performed by the Holy Spirit] and faith in the truth [faith in Christ who is the Truth]. God accepted our faith in Christ and placed us in Christ which was our individual election from the beginning of our life in Christ.

Behold the gospel of Christ.

 

[Van]

Folks my line of reason is crystal clear. RT advocates are allowed to use the Shawshank defense, feigning obtuseness, usually posting the icon of the scratching head. But at it core it simply shifts the discussion away from the topic and to the unverifiqble claims of the RT advocates. Pay no attention.