Generic Oranges

[Van]

You are the one who has to reconcile how God can both know and not know things, when He is Omniscient.

I have reconciled that God knows all things concerning those He has chosen to look into their hearts, and that sometimes God chooses to learn things by testing us, such as Abraham. My view is thus consistent with scripture, and yours denies all scripture that indicates God has chosen not to know something, such as Jeremiah 31:34, where God remembers our sins no more.

The flaw in your thinking is assuming that God experiences time in the same fashion as we do.

Yet another falsehood, no quote will be forthcoming. Pay no attention to the RT advocates assertions concerning my position. God created time, and is transcendent.

To say He does not remember them is to say that He no longer will take them into account against us, because they have been dealt with.

No, you miss the point of scripture. To say God will remember them no more means God will remember them no more. When God forgives, that means He will not hold them against us, when He forgets them, that allows us to draw near to the throne of Grace without shame. I use this truth against Satan's effort to discourage me all the time. Theology 101

His apparent reaction is not some adjusting or conditional response on His part, but rather changing perception on our part.

More dismissing of scripture. It is God who relents, keeping His word based on His promise. This is not a change in our understanding, it is the grace or wrath of God.

NBF, I know what you are and I love you. But you are misguided and I am trying to help you lead a more effective life for Christ. I try not to attack the advocates of RT personally, but on the other hand, I certainly fail in my duties of fellowship on occasion. May God bless as you grow up in Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

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I have reconciled that God knows all things concerning those He has chosen to look into their hearts, and that sometimes God chooses to learn things by testing us, such as Abraham. My view is thus consistent with scripture, and yours denies all scripture that indicates God has chosen not to know something, such as Jeremiah 31:34, where God remembers our sins no more.

Van, you are taking certain things too literally, and not understanding. If God tested Abraham, it wasn't so God could learn about Abraham, it was so Abraham could learn about God, and about himself. Think, man! God already knew all that could possibly be known about Abraham! God knew what Abraham would do, in any given circumstance! The one who was being educated was Abraham, not God!

When God says He will not remember our sins, it is not consistent with His Omniscience to say that He then cannot remember our sins from a lack of ability on His part. His promise to us is that he will not remember those sins against us, or hold them to our account, once forgiven. If God is Omniscient, then there is nothing that He does not know. So when He says He will remember our sins no more, the meaning is that He will not hold us accountable for them, and He will not name them or think about them.

He also says He will remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west. Obviously that is an illustrative point. There are flat-earth advocates who take that to mean that the world can't be round, because on a round globe, east eventually meets west. That is taking the point too literally.

Yet another falsehood, no quote will be forthcoming. Pay no attention to the RT advocates assertions concerning my position. God created time, and is transcendent.

Your statements leave no room for another conclusion. You speak of God in the terms and actions of one moving through temporal time.

No, you miss the point of scripture. To say God will remember them no more means God will remember them no more. When God forgives, that means He will not hold them against us, when He forgets them, that allows us to draw near to the throne of Grace without shame.

I use this truth against Satan's effort to discourage me all the time. Theology 101

You actually are agreeing with me, you're just trying to not let it look that way. God's promise to not remember them is the promise that they won't be held against us. God can't not remember something if He chooses to bring it to mind, but He does choose not to bring to mind things he has promised not to, where His Children are concerned.

More dismissing of scripture. It is God who relents, keeping His word based on His promise. This is not a change in our understanding, it is the grace or wrath of God.

Again, you miss my point. God does not change, He is Immutable. Therefore, if he seems to change, it is much more likely that it is our perspective that has been changed or altered. We certainly view God differentl;y now, as Christians, than we did before salvation, don't we? Who changed?

NBF, I know what you are and I love you. But you are misguided and I am trying to help you lead a more effective life for Christ. I try not to attack the advocates of RT personally, but on the other hand, I certainly fail in my duties of fellowship on occasion. May God bless as you grow up in Christ.

Concern duly noted, but are you willing to admit that you have blind spots too, and some in areas where you think you know quite well what the truth is? I was not brought up in a Reformed church, nor was I "indoctrinated": or in any other way force-fed Reformed doctrine. I came to these conclusions on many things before I had ever heard of Calvinism, Reformed this or that, simply from study of the scriptures, prayer, and discussion with many different people.

It would certainly be less contentious if the sniping against Reformed Theology was dropped, as it has become a recurring and repetitive theme of your posts. When you take shots at people, you should not be surprised when the bullets come flying back your way.

 

[Van]

I was not brought up in a Reformed church, nor was I "indoctrinated": or in any other way force-fed Reformed doctrine. I came to these conclusions on many things before I had ever heard of Calvinism, Reformed this or that, simply from study of the scriptures, prayer, and discussion with many different people.

Many Calvinists make the same claim, so I suspect it is more of a mantra than an actuality. I studied to try and support Calvinism and found it could not be supported.

Yes, I take scripture literally, whatever the author was literally trying to say whether using literal or figurative devices.

Scripture says, "Now I know" and I believe these inspired words mean God tested Abraham to discern Abraham's heart. Now God may well have had other reasons for testing rather than looking in Abraham's heart, such as creating a type for Christ, but that does not diminish the truth that God said, "Now I know."

When you say God's words are not consistent with His Omniscience, what you are really saying is it is not consistent with the mainstream view of Omniscience. However, His words are perfectly consistent with my understanding of God's Omniscience, because my defintion differs from yours. God knows everything He chooses to know. This does not limit his ability to know, nor does it conflict with the many verses that teach God chose not to know some things.

You actually are agreeing with me, you're just trying to not let it look that way.

No, I am half agreeing with you, forgiveness means God does not hold our sins against us, but I am disagreeing that remembering no more is for that purpose. Rather I am saying the remembering no more is to allow us to approach the throne of grace without shame. Our wickedness is not even in God's mind.

God does not change, He is Immutable.

Agreed, but what this means is His attributes do not change. It does not mean He does not honor his conditional promises, and respond when we repent.

Of course I have blind spots, bigger than yours. I know I see through a glass darkly, but so did Calvin. So just because my view is certainly flawed, it does not follow that it is more flawed than RT. I think Hybrid Soteriology is less flawed. As far as taking shots at RT, my understand of scripture requires that I expose what I believe is false teaching. I present scripture to support my shots, I do not just make assertions.

 

[cygnusx1]

Oh to be a perfect orange in the Orange Crate of God, sealed forever and predestined to eternal happiness with my Creator.

keep asking for it ... you may just get it !!

 

[cygnusx1]

There you go again... Saying I miss the point on purpose, when I addresed the point. My God, with a capital G, is God Amighty and can do anything scripture says He does. Jeremiah 32:35 indicates God did not know stuff, QED. I do not dismiss scripture, but you do and this is just one of many.

The point of God dealing with us conditionally is that when God responds to our decisions, He is not changing His mind as we do when we see we were mistaken, He is simply sticking to view that if we do this, He will do that and if we repent, He will relent.

There you go again, dismissing the inspired word as hyperbole. Jeremiah 31:34 is the inspired word of God, and it says God both forgives our sins and then does not remember them. To say He does remember them, that He is unable to forget stuff, is to belittle God. RT cherry picks scripture, then dismisses the scriptures that indicate RT does not mesh with scripture. This is a classic example.

so you don't accept the scripture that says we will be judged at the judgement seat for what we have done in the body!!!!

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10; cf. Rom. 14:2). In the judgment we will give an account for every careless word (Matt. 12:36), God will bring to light the things hidden in the darkness, our secrets, and will disclose the motives of our hearts (Rom. 2:16; 1 Cor. 4:5). Even our ministries will be tested as to how well we have built God's temple, and we will be rewarded or suffer loss accordingly (1 Cor. 3:10-15).

For who can judge the unknown!!!!

what is the matter van , am I taking those scriptures too literally for you ???

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

The part of his fruity argument that really cracks me up is saying that he is planning to go to the market to purchase oranges, so by choosing the crate to put them in, he chooses the oranges, before he has even gone to the market, because "no plan of his can be thwarted".

I thought only God could say that.

Eggsackly. What was "the Lie" that Satan deceived Eve with?

"You will be like God." Musta been an orange tree.

 

[Van]

what is the matter van , am I taking those scriptures too literally for you ???

No you are simply evading the subjection and posting diversions. The case is made. Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose Christ and only Christ as an individual before creation. When we are placed in Christ, we share in that election. Hence, we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. This is not rocket science.