Generic Oranges

[cygnusx1]

Hmm actually I think Van does have a point here:



The verses in dispute:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:3-5


Reformed theology does read the chosenness before the foundation of the world as "an individual chosen before the foundation of the world to be placed into Christ".

Now we call agree that through faith we share in Christ's body, death, resurrection - the whole shebang.

I think that Paul is writing to Christians who share in Christ's election which occured before the foundation of the world. Put simply they are "chosen in Christ" because they are in Christ. I don't think the idea that they were chosen to be put into Christ is being put forward. Paul continually stresses salvation by faith, not election. After all, salvation by election was the mistake the Jews ended up making. They lost this election because of their lack of faith.

you cannot lose election.............

Romans
Chapter 111 1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal." 5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever." 11 2 Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number. 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry 14 in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 3 If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 4 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, 26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; 27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Chapter 9
1 1 2 I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness 2 that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all 3 be blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, 7 nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name."

 

[cygnusx1]

Reformed theology does read the chosenness before the foundation of the world as "an individual chosen before the foundation of the world to be placed into Christ".

Now we call agree that through faith we share in Christ's body, death, resurrection - the whole shebang.

I think that Paul is writing to Christians who share in Christ's election which occured before the foundation of the world. Put simply they are "chosen in Christ" because they are in Christ. I don't think the idea that they were chosen to be put into Christ is being put forward. Paul continually stresses salvation by faith, not election. After all, salvation by election was the mistake the Jews ended up making. They lost this election because of their lack of faith.

Predestination is mentioned straight after. This needs (and has had it's own thread) but anyway 2 questions need to be asked before any conclusions are drawn:

1) Generic or individual predestination?

2) Conditional (faith+grace) or unconditional (grace) predestination?

My use of the term "Generic predestination" means this: God had always planned to expand the covenant he had with his special people (Jews) to the rest of the world. Jews were predestined to be God's chosen people in the same way the Gentiles were predestined to be God's chosen people. So the us Paul refers to is Gentiles and Jews alike, not simply Christians. I think it will be very hard to prove which group he meant in a way that will convince everyone... both make sense in the context, though for me Romans 9-11 leads me to think general predestination is more likely since I think Paul quite clearly refers to nations when dealing with predestination there.

Hmmm I love this stuff. Our God is a genius.

compare these texts and see where the emphasis lies ........... and no Corporate Election does not contradict personal election , it incorporates it , it has to , the Church consists of individuals not some morph like blob.

"There is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him"— Ephesians 1:4


"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit" (2 Thess. 2:13).


"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48)


"The elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen" (Mark 13:20).


Paul, "he is a chosen vessel unto Me" (Acts 9:15).


"Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people" (1 Pet. 2:9)


Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it" (Rom. 11:2-7).


"For the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened . . . insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect ... and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (Matt. 24:22, 24, 31).

"Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him?" (Luke 18:7).

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect?" (Rom. 8:33).


"That the purpose of God according to election might stand" (Rom. 9:11).

"I endure all things for the elect’s sake" (2 Tim. 2:10)

"The faith of God’s elect" (Titus 1:1).

 

[ian90]

absolutely right brother , and we know why that is don't we , so that no human might boast in the presence of God

"Look at me , I had faith when they had unbelief" ...
"look what I achieved with my faith" ...
"if only those miserable sinners had been clever enough , sincere enough and willing enough to believe like me , they would not be lost " ..........
"look at my quality descision folks , God is so pleased with me "

and with that approach the Arminian / humanist / anti-Calvinist doesn't even see the problem ................. I mean surely God doesn't mind shairing His Glory with us , I mean come on if it wasn't for US , God couldn't save us right .............

An voluntary faith in the unseen is a sign of weakness.

you might even see Van acknowledge that personal election takes place ......... but he seperates corporate Election and personal election and makes the two stand upon different principles , they have very little in common , and this view is way too complicated to arrive at naturally ..............

There are 6 distinct types of election in the bible;

• Election of Christ
• Of the church in Christ
• Of the nation of Israel
• Of believers in the nation of Israel
• Of the twelve disciples
• Of Paul

Pauls dealings with election are quite complicated since he constantly moves between talking about election of Jesus, Gentiles and Jews. We shouldn't assume election is always to salvation either:

"Did I not choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (John 6:70)

Election has come to mean only one thing in the evangelical church today - of individual Christians.

I am kind of amazed why anyone would get upset by personal Election , like it was something bad ............ I think it is acknowledged by many Christians who just avoid it's counter-part .

Do you know the most horrifying sermon I ever read was by a Calvinist? The preacher described how he walked out of his house and onto the street and saw an "unregenerate old man" walking down the road. His reaction was great joy - joy that God had chosen him when he could have chosen this other man instead. I felt great despair at how twisted and upside down this man's reaction was. Instead of pleading with God to swap his own election with this poor old man he did the opposite and gripped his even tighter.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:3

For those whose family are not Christians, who live with non Christians and whose closests friends are non-Christians, the idea that any ability to be saved is removed from the individual is extremely upsetting. There's ultimately nothing I can do, and nothing they can do. All I can do is hope and hope and hope, though at the back of my mind I know the odds are stacked against them.

100 people attend the Christian Union where I live. Say there are actually 5 times that number of Christian students. That works out at 97.5% of the student population are going to hell. God could easily convert everyone, but he decides to only choose a tiny percentile. All for his glory? To say this is not upsetting is remarkable.

The First Main Point of Doctrine
Divine Election and Reprobation

Article 10: Election Based on God's Good Pleasure
​

For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
Eze 18:32

I thought as much...

The ramifications of unconditional, individual election run very, very deep. To me, it is a belief that before the foundation of the world, God closed his eyes and threw darts. The fact most of them missed I find rather rather upsetting.

 

[ian90]

you cannot lose election.............

The Jews lost their election as a unified nation.
Israel had fulfilled it's duty - the Messiah had finally been delivered. Now Paul has to explain to fellow Jews (who believed themselves to be God's chosen people - the elect) that being a Jew is not enough - Christianity has arrived on the scene.
Romans 9-11 portrays God as taking the lump of clay that was Israel and making it into two vessels - Gentile and Jew.
By doing so he put an end to the possibility of there being an elect group of people which could contain believers alongside non-believers. Paul is writing to explain that election cannot be claimed by birth anymore - now it is solely by faith since pre Jesus being born into Israel was the means of being "elect".

So yes, unbelieving Jews living through this transition period "lost" their election. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

But the remenent "elect according to grace" are a kind of "elect within this elect". These are the only Jews which are actually saved - so not all Jews "lost" their election as you rightfully pointed out.

What I see here is that the original election Israel did not determine the final destiny of individuals. Paul attacks this idea in the passage you quoted. What sets this remenant apart is faith - it is central to this inner election in contrast to the works of the law and birth right, which is what the rest were banking on.

Again, salvation by faith is reinforced in contrast to salvation simply by election. This remenent of Jewish people continue to remain elect because of their faith.

 

[Van]

Hi Ian90, just a couple of points. RT does not teach that foreseen individuals are actually elected before the foundation of the world. If it did, then the elect could not be conceived in iniquity, another RT doctrine. They do not put forth any position and then argue both sides, depending on the verse being discussed. Your natural and logical conclusion, the election of Ephesians 1:4 places the foreseen individuals in Christ, would not allow sin to pile up on them before they are saved because who can bring a charge against God's elect? Just another paradox that RT creates for the thoughtful student of the word. No, individual election must occur after the person has lived in a fallen state. Read 1 Peter 2:9-10 carefully. Referring to born again folks, Peter says, But you are a chosen race, referring to individual election unto salvation, that you may glorify God (proclaim His excellencies) who has called you out of darkness (out of an unregenerate fallen separated from God state) into His marvelous light; for once you were not a people - teaching that you existed in a fallen state, eliminating the possibility of individual election before the foundation of the world - but now you are the people of God. If individual election occurred before the foundation of the world, then at no time during the life of the elect would it be before they had received mercy.

Ian90, the more you study, the more you see RT does not fit with scripture.

Two final point, the only type of election I am talking about is election unto salvation; I am no talking about corporate election, but rather generic election before the foundation of the world and individual election unto salvation during our physical life.

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi Ian90, just a couple of points. RT does not teach that foreseen individuals are actually elected before the foundation of the world.

Van, that is completely untrue. RT teaches individual election before the foundation of the world. RT teaches that this election is of individuals whom God foreknows, and has chosen to impart His Grace upon them so that they will be saved, and in so doing, predestines them to that end, decreeing the time and place of their salvation.

If it did, then the elect could not be conceived in iniquity, another RT doctrine.

Again, totally false. The elect are born in iniquity just like any other human. Their salvation is predestined, but happens in temporal time, and until that time they are as lost as any other sinner.

They do not put forth any position and then argue both sides, depending on the verse being discussed.

What you mean by this statement is beyond me, other than it being an unwarranted and fallacious attack on Reformed Theology in general, and Calvinists in particular.

Your natural and logical conclusion, the election of Ephesians 1:4 places the foreseen individuals in Christ, would not allow sin to pile up on them before they are saved because who can bring a charge against God's elect? Just another paradox that RT creates for the thoughtful student of the word.

If you actually knew Reformed Theology, if you actually understood the teachings, you would not make these ridiculous and fallacious lying statements. You show that you do not have the slightest understanding of temporal sequence, or that if your statement were true, the elect would have no need of a savior, which is contrary to scripture and reason. Your false idea procedes from the false notion that election saves the individual. Election does not save them, nor does Predestination. Faith in Christ is what saves them, that faith being declared by election, and the time of their salvation ensured by predestination. Such is the case for ALL true Believers, not just a subset of them as you apparently falsely believe.

No, individual election must occur after the person has lived in a fallen state. Read 1 Peter 2:9-10 carefully. Referring to born again folks, Peter says, But you are a chosen race, referring to individual election unto salvation, that you may glorify God (proclaim His excellencies) who has called you out of darkness (out of an unregenerate fallen separated from God state) into His marvelous light; for once you were not a people - teaching that you existed in a fallen state, eliminating the possibility of individual election before the foundation of the world - but now you are the people of God. If individual election occurred before the foundation of the world, then at no time during the life of the elect would it be before they had received mercy.

None of this precludes individual election before the foundation of the world, because Van has the false notion that election eqwuals salvation, and that if a person is elect, he must be saved at the time of election. God's election does not save them nor does His predestination of the time of their salvation save them. They are saved when they believe on Christ, and receive Him and His atoning work on their behalf. Election is the declared intent by God to save them, and predestination is the surety that it will be provided by God at the appointed time, by His regenerating their hearts unto a lively faith in Him, at which time they pass from death to life.

Ian90, the more you study, the more you see RT does not fit with scripture.

Considering Van's obvious bias, I would take that statement with a large amount of salt. Van hates anything remotely RT and continually makes false cvlaims and charges against the doctrine, and those who believe and teach them.

Two final point, the only type of election I am talking about is election unto salvation; I am no talking about corporate election, but rather generic election before the foundation of the world and individual election unto salvation during our physical life.

Van demonstrates that he does not understand the RT doctrine of Predestination and Election, and has reached many fallacious and wrong conclusions, because of that lack of knowledge, and his refusal to be corrected.

 

[Van]

Ian90, pay no attention to what the RT advocates say about me, the issue is the meaning of Ephesians 1:4, and restate it, RT does not say that the election before the foundation of the world actually places the foreseen individuals in Christ. If it did, then it would be an obvious falsehood, because once a person is among the elect, no charge such as being in a sinful state, can be brought against them.

 

[nobdysfool]

Van, How can you believe that you can falsely represent Reformed Theology as you have done, and then claim that you have refuted Reformed Theology and established your own view, when your refutation is built on lies and falsehoods? Do you not understand that your method has a fatal flaw in it? Truth cannot be built on falsehood, and willfully lying is a sin. I say willfully lying, because you have been told and shown many times where you err in your statements regarding Reformed Theology, and yet you refuse to be corrected, or to ask what the correct teaching is. You continue to post the same falsehoods, as though nothing had been said. You cannot continue to do so without expecting to be corrected and embarrassed publicly, since you insist on publicly posting falsehoods.

 

[nobdysfool]

Ian90, pay no attention to what the RT advocates say about me, the issue is the meaning of Ephesians 1:4, and restate it, RT does not say that the election before the foundation of the world actually places the foreseen individuals in Christ.

In your view, Election placing a person in Christ is the same as them being saved. That is your own pet idea, which you try to hold RT to, and since RT doesn't teach that, you claim that therefore RT is wrong, when in actuality, what you mean is RT is wrong becuase it doesn't agree with your idea. At least, Van, be honest about your statements, and quit playing this game. You're wrong and have been shown to be wrong, yet you continue. Bearing false witness is a sin, Van.

If it did, then it would be an obvious falsehood, because once a person is among the elect, no charge such as being in a sinful state, can be brought against them.

Not so. Once a person is saved, no charge can be brought against them, but the Elect consist of two groups: those who have received Christ, and those who are predestined to receive Christ (but have not yet done so in temporal time, their appointed time having not yet arrived.) You falsely equate election with Salvation, which RT does not do. So you bear false witness here, too.

 

[Van]

Hi Ian90, pay no attention to the frantic efforts to disrupt any potential discussion of the topic.

What the RT folks are saying is that I am insane, a sinner, i bear false witness, and on and on, having nothing to do with the topic. Why? Because scripture is clear, Ephesians 1:4 is telling us God chose Christ to be the redeemer, and therefore since you do not chose a redeemer unless you plan on redeeming those who will be redeemed, we were chosen generically before the foundation of the world. No other view fits with scripture.

Note the effort to have it both ways, as I said they would do, the "election" before the foundation is an election to a group who will be saved, but they are not the elect referring to those saved. Thus having created two meanings for the term elect, they attempt to skate past the verses that demonstrate this is an invalid view. At some point all this redefining of terms should drop a red flag. Consider this when scripture says no charge can be brought against God's elect, that is referring to the saved and not the elect before salvation. The reason is if the elect referred to God's purported preselection of forseen individuals, it would be an obvious error. So two groups are invented with the same individuals and the same name to avoid scripture. You should see red flags.

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi Ian90, pay no attention to the frantic efforts to disrupt any potential discussion of the topic.

What the RT folks are saying is that I am insane, a sinner, i bear false witness, and on and on, having nothing to do with the topic. Why? Because scripture is clear, Ephesians 1:4 is telling us God chose Christ to be the redeemer, and therefore since you do not chose a redeemer unless you plan on redeeming those who will be redeemed, we were chosen generically before the foundation of the world. No other view fits with scripture.

No frenzy involved Van. Just a refusal to let you get away with falsehoods and bearing false witness about Reformed Theology. If you want to pursue the subject without the constant mention of Reformed Theology, fine, go ahead, but expect Calvinists to challenge you on those points. However, when you attempt to build your view up by tearing down another, you should take care to be sure you are accurately presenting the opposing view, which you are not doing, and seem to be refusing to either learn the correct view, or be corrected and acknowledge that correction so that you can speak with integrity. As of now, you have no integrity, nor do you have the respect of others here, because of your continual false witness and obstinate refusal of correction.

To attempt to brush off these charges as you are trying to do is proof of your obstinancy, and your refusal to actually answer the challenges, but to just repeat things as though nothing had been said, undermines your credibility.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Jews lost their election as a unified nation.

oh dear ian90 , this is just so wrong .
1.The nation of the Jews was never a unified nation , "not all Israel are of Israel"
2. Paul on several occassions is at pains to point out that Election , God's purposes and God's Love for Israel as a nation cannot be thwarted !


consider the whole point of Romans 9 through 11 .
It was against the background of national apostacy , yes , it is quite clear that a hardening has fallen upon the Jews , this was intentional and all a part of God's plan.

Does this hardening , and their stumbling mean that Election has been lost , or that Israel as a nation are no longer a chosen nation ?

Not at all!!!

The whole point is that God doesn't change , His election and calling are without repentance , The Lord is no more thwarted by the Jews than you are thwarted by a blade of grass.

The problem is that most men's view of God is shaped by their experiences and by their books and what their pastor and friends believe , which often results in a God who is very human .......... ie, changeable.

The good news is that God not only knew before hand that Israel would stumble , but He also incorperated her stumbling into His plan.

if you could see all the mistakes of your future wife and you still chose to marry her anyway , what would that say about you and your commitment to marraige and to her ?

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

 

[Fangtastic]

Great reading Van. I knew I logged in for a good reason.

 

[nobdysfool]

Generic Oranges

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

So the crate represents intent, it does not represent actual oranges. The actual oranges you choose when you go to the store, after evaluating them for suitability for your purpose. So, assuming that your intent is to eat them or to incorporate them into some edible or drinkable product, your choice of the individual oranges will be most likely to choose the best , the most perfect, the sweetest smelling, the highest quality oranges available, correct? But in all this, your choice of the crate was not actually the choice of oranges, only the vessel to contain them. No oranges were chosen ast the time you chose the crate to hold them. To call that generic choice of oranges is a bit of a stretch, in fact not accurate at all.

The analogy you are trying to draw between your supposed "generic" choice of oranges via the container you intend to put them in falls apart when applied to the real subject at hand, that of Election. Why? Because the oranges you choose do not correspond to the people God chooses to save: the weak, the despised, the retched, the beggarly, the forgotten and downtrodden, those who have no redeeming qualities in themselves. Their analogy in the oranges would be the rotten, the green, the bruised, the overripe, the sourest, the ones that get thrown into the dumpster because no one will buy them.

Your view of Election has God choosing those who have some redeeming value, some inherent quality which makes them better than others. In short, to analyze this little story of yours shows that you believe that God chooses people based on their foreseen response to Him, so that He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. That is the very definition of a "respector of persons", something which scripture specifically and unequivocally states that God is NOT.

Act 10:34-35 KJV Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1Co 1:27-29 KJV But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: (29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Rom 9:8 KJV That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (15)For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My Name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

Eph 1:4-11 MKJV according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, (8) which s He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding; (9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10) for an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him, (11) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

1Pe 1:17-21 KJV And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: (18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (21) who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Pure conjecture on your part. You are reading in a decided-on conclusion to the text, an overlay to make it say what you want it to say, because you have decided that this is the way you think it must be.

Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

This is laughable, because if you are a "perfect orange" , it is because God transformed you into one, because you were not a "perfect orange" at the time He chose you. Yet you insist that God chose you because he foresaw you to believe in Him, in effect being perfect before He chose you. Do you not see that If God looks to those who believe, How did they believe except His Grace had been shed upon them before that belief? So that He is in reality the cause of their belief. So if He caused them to believe, and then saw that they did believe and then chose them because they believed, you have God going around in circles. It's much easier and more logical to see that God chose those whom he would save, by Electing them unto faith in Christ, and then predestined the actual time of their salvation, of their believing in Christ, in effect setting the time of His shedding of saving Grace on them in temporal time.

How does it feel to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God, knowing that God chose the orange crate before the foundation of the world, knowing that God's love is from everlasting to everlasting. During our individual physical lives, we were chosen individually and placed in the orange crate, after listening to the message of the truth - the gospel of our salvation - having not only heard but believed in the gospel, then after being made firm in the orange crate, we were sealed in the crate individually as a pledge that we will stay in the crate forever. Nothing can snatch us out of the orange crate. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

This is pure hogwash! This is the Arminian view, the semi-Pelagian "Shake-n-Bake" Gospel of modern America, the "Jesus saved me, AN' I HELPED!" gospel of free will.

Van, please address the specifics, instead of reposting the same stuff over and over again. Your refusal to deal with the specifics, but to just repeat sweeping statements without reasoned proof shows that you either cannot, or will not engage in actual debate. You just expect your words to be accepted as truth because you say they are. That's not good enough.

 

[A New Dawn]

MOD HAT ON!

Please, everyone, address the issues and not the other posters, either generically or specifically.

Thank you.

MOD HAT OFF!

 

[cygnusx1]

An voluntary faith in the unseen is a sign of weakness.

an interesting idea, would you care to unravel what you had in mind ?

 

[BBAS 64]

Today I made plans and prepared to go to the store to obtain oranges tomorrow. Today I chose the orange crate that I will place the oranges in. So when I chose the crate, in effect I chose the oranges that I would place in the crate because no plan of mine can be thwarted. But my election of the oranges is generic, my plan is to choose the oranges after I evaluate them - hold them and look into their heart, are they soft or hard, green or past it. But when I chose the orange crate to hold oranges, I chose generically the oranges I would choose individually when I visit the store.

Behold the meaning of Ephesians 1:4. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before the foundation of the world, before creation, to be the Lamb of God. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, in effect all the redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen as redeemer. God has blessed us, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Oh to be a perfect orange in the orange crate of God.

Good Day, Van

Hope you are well, did we not do this with apples and chocolates some time ago?

It seems not to matter apples, Oranges, chocolate.. analogy still found wanting...

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Van]

Generic Oranges presents the actual meaning of Ephesians 1:4. The text did not change and the meaning did not change since the last time I presented the view that is consistent with all scripture.

Lets go over the arguments offered against the generic election view.

(1) it is convoluted and hard to understand. This of course is simply in the view of the opponent and has nothing to do with content. Note that another said it was a great read. Not necessiarily an agreement, but indicating the idea was presented with some level of clarity.


(2) The crate represents intent. This of course is a mischaracterization. There is no quote that says the grate represents intent. The grate represents Christ, and God's intent in choosing Christ as redeemer was to redeem those of His choosing.

(3) God cannot choose folks based on His acceptance of their faith. Romans 4:5 says God does accept a person's faith and reckon's it as righteousness, so the argument is without merit, scripture is crystal.

(4) The respector of persons argument. God does not use the world's value system, when He chooses people, He is not partial to smart folks, or rich folks, or well born folks, He picks folks for His own purpose, to demonstrate that the world's value system is bogus. James 2:5 says He picks folks that love Him.

(5) God chooses folks based on foreseen behavior. This is yet another distortion, another straw man argument. God chooses folks after accepting their faith in Christ just like John 3:16 says.

(6) The idea that God did not transform the oranges when He places them in the Christ. Of course He does, so yet another mischaracterization.

In summary, nothing valid has been offered to show that the election before creation was Christ as Redeemer, and as a consequence, all those that will be redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen to be the Lamb.

 

[nobdysfool]

Generic Oranges presents the actual meaning of Ephesians 1:4. The text did not change and the meaning did not change since the last time I presented the view that is consistent with all scripture.

Lets go over the arguments offered against the generic election view.

(1) it is convoluted and hard to understand. This of course is simply in the view of the opponent and has nothing to do with content. Note that another said it was a great read. Not necessiarily an agreement, but indicating the idea was presented with some level of clarity.


(2) The crate represents intent. This of course is a mischaracterization. There is no quote that says the grate represents intent. The grate represents Christ, and God's intent in choosing Christ as redeemer was to redeem those of His choosing.

(3) God cannot choose folks based on His acceptance of their faith. Romans 4:5 says God does accept a person's faith and reckon's it as righteousness, so the argument is without merit, scripture is crystal.

(4) The respector of persons argument. God does not use the world's value system, when He chooses people, He is not partial to smart folks, or rich folks, or well born folks, He picks folks for His own purpose, to demonstrate that the world's value system is bogus. James 2:5 says He picks folks that love Him.

(5) God chooses folks based on foreseen behavior. This is yet another distortion, another straw man argument. God chooses folks after accepting their faith in Christ just like John 3:16 says.

(6) The idea that God did not transform the oranges when He places them in the Christ. Of course He does, so yet another mischaracterization.

In summary, nothing valid has been offered to show that the election before creation was Christ as Redeemer, and as a consequence, all those that will be redeemed were chosen generically when Christ was chosen to be the Lamb.

Apparently you haven't learned a thing while you were away. Every one of your arguments has been shown to be exactly what you say they aren't. Simply declaring that it isn't so doesn't change a thing. Your oranges and the crate analogy falls far short of scriptural accuracy, and your generic election theory has no basis in scripture. It is nothing more than an attempt to get around the truths that you don't want to accept, those of man's inability, and God's absolute sovereignty over the salvation of those whom he has chosen to save, and His choice of them from before Creation. .

The pride of man simply will not accept that he is powerless to effect his own salvation, so he tries to steal a bit of the credit away from God. That God will allow men to believe that for a time is further evidence of His great mercy, and not a validation of the wrong-thinking. Those who continue to grow and learn sooner or later will be confronted by God with the truth. Many don't, thinking that salvation is the end of the game, and never go on to the fullness of God. Calvinism separates the men from the boys (and the women from the girls), which accounts for why there is so much juvenile and infantile resistance and vitriol thrown at those who preach its truths.