Gay Conversion Therapy

[mindlight]

I wondered if any have seen the movies recently released, 'Boy Erased'. It portrays the conversion therapy negatively and untherapeutic. What I found curious, was that the coordinator of the program, who styled the program using religious education, ended up in a gay relationship and married another man.

Just such a curious outcome.

Evidence of the evil at work in the movie and those who bought into the spirit of it?

 

[Zoii]

Evidence of the evil at work in the movie and those who bought into the spirit of it?

I'm not sure what you mean - its just a statement of fact that Victor Sykes who ran one of America's well-known conversion programs for a number of churches, ended up marrying a man.

 

[JackRT]

I'm not sure what you mean - its just a statement of fact that Victor Sykes who ran one of America's well-known conversion programs for a number of churches, ended up marrying a man.

That has happened before.

“There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation” the American Psychiatric Association has officially stated. "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International in 1976, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later. "The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

Look at it in reverse. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot even imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

 

[hedrick]

It's worth noting that a number of people have, at least for a time, changed behavior. It is certainly possible for someone with a same-sex orientation to remain celibate, and some have married people of the opposite sex. I question the wisdom and even morality, of doing the latter, but it's possible, and conservatives can point to examples. (I question its morality because it's unfair to the partner. A close relative of mine was in that position, and the results weren't good.)

 

[mindlight]

I'm not sure what you mean - its just a statement of fact that Victor Sykes who ran one of America's well-known conversion programs for a number of churches, ended up marrying a man.

They would not have made a movie about him if he had married a woman. The same evil and weakness is evident in him and in the movie. Noone is helpless when it comes to controlling actions. Marriage is an action. I doubt if there is a married man alive who has not had opportunity to be unfaithful to his wife and yet a good majority have not been.

 

[mindlight]

That has happened before.

“There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation” the American Psychiatric Association has officially stated. "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International in 1976, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later. "The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

Look at it in reverse. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot even imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

Actually the brokenness that results in homosexual behaviour comes from many kinds of sins and consequences of sins.

There is our broken genetics which noone can blame anyone for and manifests itself in different ways in different people. I can accept it may be naturally difficult for some people to be heterosexual.

There is our broken society that does not affirm gender and a good understanding of gender relationships correctly and indeed transmits confusing and conflicting signals to people.

There is our broken psychological identity which has reinforced error with false choices and which has not understood itself in anything like a true light. When we choose based on our own definitions of our identity as opposed to Gods then we choose falsely

Most deeply the problem here is a broken relationship with God. One where God is not listened to and is disobeyed when his will conflicts with our desire. If someone cannot grasp Gods love for them and the eternal stakes of defying Him then they will also fail to sacrifice themselves to Him trusting in His grace and mercy to be remade in His image whether in this life or the next.

 

[Zoii]

They would not have made a movie about him if he had married a woman. The same evil and weakness is evident in him and in the movie. Noone is helpless when it comes to controlling actions. Marriage is an action. I doubt if there is a married man alive who has not had opportunity to be unfaithful to his wife and yet a good majority have not been.

The movie, that ok obviously you haven't seen, tracked one person's experience with conversion therapy. I'm confused what your point is. If it's to praise heterosexuality and it's marriages, well we both know there is no guarantee that they will be good... And often are not

 

[Sketcher]

Look at it in reverse. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot even imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

Stay out of American prisons.

 

[Nithavela]

Stay out of American prisons.

Prison rape has little to do with actual homosexuality.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Even if people feel it is wrong, it's still very much a "let's punish this victimless crime I don't like" attitude. If two people are consenting adults, and they're not bothering anyone else, then why does anyone care what they're doing?

Does your principle about consenting adults apply to other things, like say, consenting to serving a specific party in exchange for monetary compensation? Like, say, baking a cake, taking photographs, or renting out an apartment? Or... does the whole "two consenting adults" fly out the door when someone withholds consent for a reason you find offensive?

 

[KarateCowboy]

Can your sexuality change? | Living Out

Pretty good summary of the state of SOCE.

 

[hedrick]

Pretty good summary of the state of SOCE.

Not really. It presents two studies. For a summary of the state, you'd need to look at review of the whole range of studies. Reviews like that have been done.

I looked at the first of the two studies. There are some issues:
* The patients were all Christian leaders. This means they would be highly motivated to want change. With something as subjective as sexual preference, experience with faith healing and other areas suggest that they would perceive improvement, no matter what.
* The data, even as presented in the article, doesn't suggest actual change in sexual orientation.

What is generally considered difficult to impossible is changing basic sexual attraction. It is not impossible for someone with same-sex attraction to be celibate or to marry someone of the opposite gender. That is, you can surely change behavior. In my opinion it's ethical to provide support to people trying to do this, though it's not something I'd suggest.

What most people these days want to prohibit is forcing treatment on people who either don't want it or aren't in a position to give informed consent (e.g. minors), and coercive treatment. There is a history of coercive treatment of kids, with significant damage. That doesn't mean that a "soft" program providing support for conservative Christians leaders who want to change their behavior is unethical, nor that it will necessarily be harmful.

 

[variant]

What is the therapy modality that could get you to give up your heterosexual ways? I'm a better-than-average therapist and I don't quite know how I would go about it if you asked.

That's because you're probably not a hack.

We're not talking about "therapy". That is sugar coating for brainwashing.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Not really. It presents two studies. For a summary of the state, you'd need to look at review of the whole range of studies. Reviews like that have been done.

I looked at the first of the two studies. There are some issues:
* The patients were all Christian leaders. This means they would be highly motivated to want change. With something as subjective as sexual preference, experience with faith healing and other areas suggest that they would perceive improvement, no matter what.
* The data, even as presented in the article, doesn't suggest actual change in sexual orientation.

What is generally considered difficult to impossible is changing basic sexual attraction. It is not impossible for someone with same-sex attraction to be celibate or to marry someone of the opposite gender. That is, you can surely change behavior. In my opinion it's ethical to provide support to people trying to do this, though it's not something I'd suggest.

What most people these days want to prohibit is forcing treatment on people who either don't want it or aren't in a position to give informed consent (e.g. minors), and coercive treatment. There is a history of coercive treatment of kids, with significant damage. That doesn't mean that a "soft" program providing support for conservative Christians leaders who want to change their behavior is unethical, nor that it will necessarily be harmful.

It does present two studies. That's because they are two of the few worth mentioning in the last two decades. The subject has mostly been taboo as an area of research. Actually, to the point that several APA presidents emeritus have spoken out about it. As recent as 2011, the APA said in an official statement that there is a dearth of research on the subject. That was their actual word, IIRC.

Your first issue is offensive in its level of bigotry; the not-so-subtle implication that because they are Christian then dishonesty will be present. It's also an ignorant point and contradicts the onus of your second point: that there was no actual change. So which was it: there would be claims of change no matter what, or there was no change?

What is noteworthy about the Jones and Yarhouse study is that there was no finding of harm. What that gives us is that the most rigorous and robust longitudinal study to date found no harm caused by what aberrosexualists sneer at as "pray the gay away".

 

[KarateCowboy]

What is the therapy modality that could get you to give up your heterosexual ways? I'm a better-than-average therapist and I don't quite know how I would go about it if you asked.

No offense, but in my experience "better-than-average" is a pretty low benchmark in the world of therapy and counseling.

That said, as @Sketcher was alluding to recently: stay out of American prisons. Well, unless you want a physical, experience-based answer to your question.

 

[Zoii]

TrueHope. It’s a multivitamin that fixes just about every psychological disorder out there.

No there isn't. It is highly inappropriate to be citing anything that has no evidence base, or research behind the claim. Thats a faNcy way of saying its QUACKERY. When it comes to management of psychiatric illnesses, only qualified professionals, registered with their state board, should be making treatment recommendations.

Are you willing to stand before God and admit that maybe you could’ve actually helped prevent a suicide? This is serious stuff and every option out there to prevent a SINGLE SUICIDE should be taken seriously

Thats the sort of emotive comment that attempts to influence people to take up your recommended treatments and its why you were banned.

 

[hedrick]

Your first issue is offensive in its level of bigotry; the not-so-subtle implication that because they are Christian then dishonesty will be present. It's also an ignorant point and contradicts the onus of your second point: that there was no actual change. So which was it: there would be claims of change no matter what, or there was no change?

It's not bigotry to note that there are dangers to self-reported data, particularly when there are strong motivations for a specific outcome. This has nothing to do with whether they are religious, and not even their honesty. I assume they weren't lying; the danger is more subtle than that.

a...s

I thought you were concerned about bigotry.

 

[Mayzoo]

Does your principle about consenting adults apply to other things, like say, consenting to serving a specific party in exchange for monetary compensation? Like, say, baking a cake, taking photographs, or renting out an apartment? Or... does the whole "two consenting adults" fly out the door when someone withholds consent for a reason you find offensive?

Yes, a business owner is a consenting adult. They consented to obey the law of the jurisdiction in which they operate their public business. If they cannot obey the laws, that becomes a hard stop, and they are no longer eligible to conduct business without punitive action. If a business owner does not wish to obey the law, they will be forced to accept punitive actions against them or stop operating a business that is in violation of the law.

I own two businesses currently, and have had multiple others through my life. I knew upon opening the business what the pertaining laws were at the time, and that they could change; thus affecting my business, at any time.

For those who wish to make up their own rules to abide by, a private business is an option.

 

[Mayzoo]

No there isn't. It is highly inappropriate to be citing anything that has no evidence base, or research behind the claim. Thats a faNcy way of saying its QUACKERY. When it comes to management of psychiatric illnesses, only qualified professionals, registered with their state board, should be making treatment recommendations.


Thats the sort of emotive comment that attempts to influence people to take up your recommended treatments and its why you were banned.

Quick fixes almost always become quick fails.

A serious issue is almost always fixed by investing a great deal of real time and much effort into making the needed changes to ensure success.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Homosexuality is certainly not a choice.

How would you explain the uniquity of homosexual relationships in ancient Greece? Would you claim that the number of gay men was just significantly higher due to genetics or some environmental effect?

It seems to me that your sexuality is very much a lifestyle choice, inasmuch as any lifestyle is a choice. For example, an alcoholic may not conciously choose to be an alcoholic, but it is his life choices that have led him there.