Galatians' Justification

[Clare73]

So you're someone who believes you gave up your free will when you became a Christian?

I'm someone who believes the word of God in Jn 10:28-29.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

Oh brother, here we go again.

Oponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context by ignoring the content of the message (which certainly points to eternal security because of the plain language Jesus used [ i.e., "eternal life", "never perish", and "neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand"]) and inserting totally irrelevant passages and misinterpreting them (see remainder of post referenced above).

Since you seem to be an expert on the oppoosing view of eternal security, maybe you can tell us how placing on the individual the responsibility for securing his own salvation is not exactly the same as what Scripture warns us against (i.e., seeking righteousness through obedience to the law)?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

"No one" in every language excludes everyone, even oneself.

Let's not monkey with the plain language.

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

The meaning of every word in every language is dependent upon the context in which it is used. In John 10:28, we have reference to a snatcher and a victim of the snatching—two different persons.

 

[Gary K]

I'm someone who believes the word of God in Jn 10:28-29.

So you believe God took away your free will when you became a Christian? That's the only option left if you can't lose your salvation for any reason. What do you do with the scripture that contradicts your belief, ignore it?

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Why does Hebrews warn against apostasy if no one can fall away?

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Oh brother, here we go again.

Oponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context by ignoring the content of the message (which certainly points to eternal security because of the plain language Jesus used [ i.e., "eternal life", "never perish", and "neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand"]) and inserting totally irrelevant passages and misinterpreting them (see remainder of post referenced above).

Since you seem to be an expert on the oppoosing view of eternal security, maybe you can tell us how placing on the individual the responsibility for securing his own salvation is not exactly the same as what Scripture warns us against (i.e., seeking righteousness through obedience to the law)?

Salvation is a free gift to do with as we please. We can be thankful for it and cherish it above all else—or we can flush it down the toilet.

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

When Christians return to their sins, what are they saved from?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So you believe God took away your free will when you became a Christian? That's the only option left if you can't lose your salvation for any reason. What do you do with the scripture that contradicts your belief, ignore it?



Why does Hebrews warn against apostasy if no one can fall away?

The Hebrews 5 passage you quoted isn't really on par with the other two passages you quoted, but this one below from Hebrews is:

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [The New King James Version (Heb 10:26–31). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]

 

[Gary K]

The Hebrews 5 passage you quoted isn't really on par with the other two passages you quoted, but this one below from Hebrews is:

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [The New King James Version (Heb 10:26–31). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]

Yes it is another good example of the Bible telling us that it is possible for us to walk away from salvation. That we can stop our saving relationship with Jesus.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Salvation is a free gift to do with as we please. We can be thankful for it and cherish it above all else—or we can flush it down the toilet.

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

When Christians return to their sins, what are they saved from?

They are saved from the condemnation that their sins deserve.

Pointing to some hypothetical toilet did not answer my question, so I'll ask it in another way. Gary and the other law people are also free to answer if they wish.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that a person in whom Christ has taken up residence (and by that has become a first generation offspring of the living God, having been born of the Spirit, and possessing eternal life) is able to undo all that by a conscious decision of his flesh. It would be easy to conclude that he has given up all the benefits of his salvation, including the forgiveness of his sins.

Is this the only kind of person we are talking about? It seems like this one below is more likely the main target:

Let's say there is a professed Christian whose lifestyle differs too drastically from acceptable Christian norms. Despite holding on to the hope that Jesus will forgive his sins, does that person's unacceptable life choices takes him out from under God's grace, strip him of his sonship, remove God's spirit from him, and reinsert him under God's condemnation?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

They are saved from the condemnation that their sins deserve.

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

That's a hard line to maintain, preacher. You sure you want to go there?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That's a hard line to maintain, preacher. You sure you want to go there?

And I notice you still didn't answer my question.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And I notice you still didn't answer my question.

So, you probably won't answer the 3rd one either.

 

[Gary K]

They are saved from the condemnation that their sins deserve.

Pointing to some hypothetical toilet did not answer my question, so I'll ask it in another way. Gary and the other law people are also free to answer if they wish.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that a person in whom Christ has taken up residence (and by that has become a first generation offspring of the living God, having been born of the Spirit, and possessing eternal life) is able to undo all that by a conscious decision of his flesh. It would be easy to conclude that he has given up all the benefits of his salvation, including the forgiveness of his sins.

Is this the only kind of person we are talking about? It seems like this one below is more likely the main target:

Let's say there is a professed Christian whose lifestyle differs too drastically from acceptable Christian norms. Despite holding on to the hope that Jesus will forgive his sins, does that person's unacceptable life choices takes him out from under God's grace, strip him of his sonship, remove God's spirit from him, and reinsert him under God's condemnation?

Wow. That was real Christian of you.

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Gary K]

That's a hard line to maintain, preacher. You sure you want to go there?

That is an answer to your question. I happen to think it is an excellent answer.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Wow. That was real Christian of you.

lol, He pointed to the toilet when he said,

Salvation is a free gift to do with as we please. We can be thankful for it and cherish it above all else—or we can flush it down the toilet.

You didn't see that?

 

[Gary K]

lol, He pointed to the toilet when he said,

You didn't see that?

No, I missed it. Sorry about that.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That is an answer to your question. I happen to think it is an excellent answer.

It's not an excellent answer because he is implying that Jesus saving us from our sins means we do not commit sins on this earth. The reason I can say that is what he means is that his quote was to refute my answer that forgiveness of our sins remains when we sin.

So, I say that's a hard line to maintain because it provides nothing for the sins that we all commit on a frequent basis.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's not an excellent answer because he is implying that Jesus saving us from our sins means we do not commit sins on this earth. The reason I can say that is what he means is that his quote was to refute my answer that forgiveness of our sins remains when we sin.

So, I say that's a hard line to maintain because it provides nothing for the sins that we all commit on a frequent basis.

Jesus saves us from our sins in several important ways. He saves us from the Penalty for our sins (i.e., condemnation), from the Power of sin to separte us from God, and eventually from the very Presence of sin when we physically die. Alliteration not originally mine.

 

[Gary K]

It's not an excellent answer because he is implying that Jesus saving us from our sins means we do not commit sins on this earth. The reason I can say that is what he means is that his quote was to refute my answer that forgiveness of our sins remains when we sin.

So, I say that's a hard line to maintain because it provides nothing for the sins that we all commit on a frequent basis.

No. It's scripture saying what you do not like as he posted no words of his own.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No. It's scripture saying what you do not like as he posted no words of his own.

Come on Gary, you can't be serious. He asked this question:

When Christians return to their sins, what are they saved from?

This was my answer:

They are saved from the condemnation that their sins deserve.

This was his reply:

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Unless he was agreeing with me in a very unusual way, he was arguing that Jesus saves us from sinning, not from the condemnation due to us for our sins. How else can you read that? Besides, how can you say I don't like that Scripture?