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Galatians' Justification

Gary K

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Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasureCome on Gary, you can't be serious. He asked this question:

This was my answer:

This was his reply:

Unless he was agreeing with me in a very unusual way, he was arguing that Jesus saves us from sinning, not from the condemnation due to us for our sins. How else can you read that? Besides, how can you say I don't like that Scripture?
Easy. Do you believe scripture? If so then I'll give you some scripture that joins all aspects of salvation.

Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The Greek word from which righteousness is translated means justification. Thus Jesus is the one-stop-source for all righteousness. He is made unto us justification, sanctification, and redemption. As sanctification is holiness it means He saves us from our sins.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Do you believe it is God's will for us to be sinning on a regular basis? I don't as sin is self destructive. We destroy ourselves with it. Look at drug addiction and alcholism. They literally destroy their victims. I know from sad experience. But Jesus released me from that self destruction through the power of the HS in my life. All the addict has to do us ask Jesus into his heart, and then spend time getting to know Him better every day and addiction will have no more power of his life.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Those Scriptures do not work the way you describe when we look at our lives objectively. Yes, we are made truly righteous and holy in the inner man as a result of spiritual birth, but there is another law at work in the flesh (see Romans 7).

The practical result of this is that we all gratify the desires of the flesh (rather often from my observations of myself and other Christians). So to say Jesus saves us in this life from the power of the flesh to drag us away into sin is just delusional. I know of no person alive today who has lived a life free of the sins of the flesh.

Furthermore, the gospel must address the sins of the flesh, or else there is no “good news” for anyone.
 
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Clare73

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John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

The meaning of every word in every language is dependent upon the context in which it is used. In John 10:28, we have reference to a snatcher and a victim of the snatching—two different persons.
I can be the victim of my own malfeasance.
 
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Clare73

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So you believe God took away your free will when you became a Christian? That's the only option left if you can't lose your salvation for any reason. What do you do with the scripture that contradicts your belief, ignore it?
As in?
Why does Hebrews warn against apostasy if no one can fall away?
God works through means, and one of the ways God keeps the elect is through warnings, which the elect heed, and the tares not so much.
 
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Gary K

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Those Scriptures do not work the way you describe when we look at our lives objectively. Yes, we are made truly righteous and holy in the inner man as a result of spiritual birth, but there is another law at work in the flesh (see Romans 7).

The practical result of this is that we all gratify the desires of the flesh (rather often from my observations of myself and other Christians). So to say Jesus saves us in this life from the power of the flesh to drag us away into sin is just delusional. I know of no person alive today who has lived a life free of the sins of the flesh.

Furthermore, the gospel must address the sins of the flesh, or else there is no “good news” for anyone.
That is your opinion with which I disagree. Jonn tells us much differently in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John.
 
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Gary K

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As in?

God works through means, and one of the ways God keeps the elect is through warnings, which the elect heed, and the tares not so much.
The scripture I quoted you from Hebrews and 2nd Peter.
 
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Gary K

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I can be the victim of my own malfeasance.
Which is an admission that you can lose your salvation. Any Christian who alks away from their relationship with God does exactly that.
 
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Gary K

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Those Scriptures do not work the way you describe when we look at our lives objectively. Yes, we are made truly righteous and holy in the inner man as a result of spiritual birth, but there is another law at work in the flesh (see Romans 7).

The practical result of this is that we all gratify the desires of the flesh (rather often from my observations of myself and other Christians). So to say Jesus saves us in this life from the power of the flesh to drag us away into sin is just delusional. I know of no person alive today who has lived a life free of the sins of the flesh.

Furthermore, the gospel must address the sins of the flesh, or else there is no “good news” for anyone.
It does.
 
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Gary K

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D

Don’t tell me how perfect you are, tell me how you cope with your sins.
I take them to Jesus just like all other Christians. And, I've never claimed to be perfect but that God has made provision for us not to be forced into sinning. You read a lot into my posts that I never say. I stick with John in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John.
 
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Clare73

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Which is an admission that you can lose your salvation. Any Christian who alks away from their relationship with God does exactly that.
Not when Jesus tells me no one including myself can snatch me from his hand.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I take them to Jesus just like all other Christians. And, I've never claimed to be perfect but that God has made provision for us not to be forced into sinning. You read a lot into my posts that I never say. I stick with John in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John.
It sounded like you thought being saved from sin meant you didn’t sin, so I misunderstood.

So, what you said above is close to what i believe. The sins which we commit after we are saved are forgiven [except the narrowly defined sin of packing everything up and leaving Jesus behind].

This still does not agree with what PG implied that we are not saved from the condemnation when we sin.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I take them to Jesus just like all other Christians. And, I've never claimed to be perfect but that God has made provision for us not to be forced into sinning. You read a lot into my posts that I never say. I stick with John in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John.
Now that I think about it, it looks like you actually agree with my post that you said you disagreed with. God has given you the ability to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh by giving you the option of walking in the Spirit. But you do not always avail yourself of that option, and as a result you sometimes gratify the lusts of the flesh. When the latter happens, you take it to Jesus and He lets you know that you are forgiven, and reminds you to walk in the Spirit in order to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. That is basically what I said above, you said it was only an opinion of mine, and now it looks like you're agreeing with me. What am I missing?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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They are saved from the condemnation that their sins deserve.

Pointing to some hypothetical toilet did not answer my question, so I'll ask it in another way. Gary and the other law people are also free to answer if they wish.
The toilet that I referred to (I did not point to it) is not a hypothetical toilet—it is the very real toilet into which everyday thousands of Christians dump their faith in Christ.

“Law people”! How disgusting!
 
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Gary K

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Now that I think about it, it looks like you actually agree with my post that you said you disagreed with. God has given you the ability to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh by giving you the option of walking in the Spirit. But you do not always avail yourself of that option, and as a result you sometimes gratify the lusts of the flesh. When the latter happens, you take it to Jesus and He lets you know that you are forgiven, and reminds you to walk in the Spirit in order to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. That is basically what I said above, you said it was only an opinion of mine, and now it looks like you're agreeing with me. What am I missing?
I think I do disagree with you as my personal experience with this is I sin occasionally, not regularily. I will sin sometimes only a handful of times a week. They are usually the same sin as Paul talks about our sin that so easily besets us. My life is continually improving as I've only been applying this in my life for a few months and during that time there has been dramatic improvement. But that isn't due to me in any way shape or form other than the success increases my faith a lot. And Jesus told the two blind beggars that their healing would be according to their faith.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I think I do disagree with you as my personal experience with this is I sin occasionally, not regularily. I will sin sometimes only a handful of times a week. They are usually the same sin as Paul talks about our sin that so easily besets us. My life is continually improving as I've only been applying this in my life for a few months and during that time there has been dramatic improvement. But that isn't due to me in any way shape or form other than the success increases my faith a lot. And Jesus told the two blind beggars that their healing would be according to their faith.
Ok, I'm happy for you, and I applaud your progress. We all struggle with sin. It is the human condition. I am just pointing out the obvious. No matter how well we live out our Christian lives, we are all dependent on God's forgiveness to cover our shortfalls. There will be no time, short of physical death, that we will not be dependent on His grace to cover our sins. Yes, walking in the Spirit is much better than walking in the flesh. But God's grace teaches us that none of our failures to do as He leads will never lead to our eternal destruction. So, when I read that Jesus was gonna save His people from their sins, I don't just see an opportunity to walk in the Spirit. I also see forgiveness for when we fail.
 

PrincetonGuy

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Those Scriptures do not work the way you describe when we look at our lives objectively. Yes, we are made truly righteous and holy in the inner man as a result of spiritual birth, but there is another law at work in the flesh (see Romans 7).

The practical result of this is that we all gratify the desires of the flesh (rather often from my observations of myself and other Christians). So to say Jesus saves us in this life from the power of the flesh to drag us away into sin is just delusional. I know of no person alive today who has lived a life free of the sins of the flesh.

Furthermore, the gospel must address the sins of the flesh, or else there is no “good news” for anyone.

Romans 6:14. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. {Gk [sold under sin]}
15. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
16. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
17. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
20. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand.
22. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self,
23. but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. (NRSV)

In v. 22, the speaker says that in his inmost self he delights in the law of God . However, Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:56 “the power of sin is the law.” Would Paul write that in his inmost self he delights in the power of sin? All of Romans 7:14-25 is about a man who with every ounce of his being is striving to keep the law but is finding that he is not able to. But in Romans 6 Paul had written, “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

No real Christian strives to keep the law because he is not under the law and the law is the power of sin. So, who is this man who with every ounce of his being is striving to keep the law but is finding that he is not able to? He’s a Jew who, being a good Jew without Christ, delights in the law of God—but in vain! Therefore, what we have in these verses is a rhetorical device commonly known in Christian literature and elsewhere as “speech-in-character.”

Paul also wrote in Romans 6,

1. What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound?
2. By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?
3. Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

All Scriptures are from the NRSV)
 
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Gary K

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Ok, I'm happy for you, and I applaud your progress. We all struggle with sin. It is the human condition. I am just pointing out the obvious. No matter how well we live out our Christian lives, we are all dependent on God's forgiveness to cover our shortfalls. There will be no time, short of physical death, that we will not be dependent on His grace to cover our sins. Yes, walking in the Spirit is much better than walking in the flesh. But God's grace teaches us that none of our failures to do as He leads will never lead to our eternal destruction. So, when I read that Jesus was gonna save His people from their sins, I don't just see an opportunity to walk in the Spirit. I also see forgiveness for when we fail.
Unless we voluntarily choose to end our relationship with God.
 
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