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Galatians' Justification

NewLifeInChristJesus

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Just how does that text exclude other scripture that says we can walk away from God? And, why do you choose to make God argue with Himself? Your position does not harmonize all scripture. Mine does as your proof text does not eliminate the possibility of free will allowing us to walk away from God. Do we lose our free will when we become Christians?
As I said, what part of "eternal" do you not understand? Strongs says it means, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". If it were to ever end, it would not be eternal, it would be temporary. But Jesus said it would be eternal life.

There are more strident things I can say. Here are some other things John wrote:

[He] who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life (1 Jn 5:10–13) NKJV​

The Bible says that eternal life exists in Jesus, that God has given us the eternal life that exists in Jesus, and we can know that we have eternal life if Jesus is living in us. To say we who have Jesus in us do not have eternal life like Jesus does is to make God a liar. This is what the Bible says.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I believe the testimony that God has given of His Son, not only because I believe the Scriptures, but I see Jesus living in my own heart as the Scriptures say He does, and seeing Him there gives me assurance the He will never let anything come between us. His ability to keep me safe from all harm is a halmark of eternal life, as these Scriptures say:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:27–30)​

What part of "they shall never perish" Do you not undertand?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Concerning a person voluntarily ending the life they share with Jesus, I would just say that is delusional. Even if it were possible, the only way that could happen is if the devil somehow convinced him to do it. And we know because of what Jesus said in John 10:27-30, that is not possible because Jesus is one with God the Father Who is greater than all. And we also have this:

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (1 Jn 5:18) NKJV​

According to the Bible, the devil cannot sneak into spirits and convince us to voluntarily give up the gift of life Jesus has given us. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe the Bible. See, I can be strident if need be.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Concerning the need to reconcile my views "with all Scriptures", I will say that is not my job. My job is to trust God the Father and God the Son who live in me in the person of the Holy Spirit as He leads me into all truth. Here is the Scripture:

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27) NKJV​

These are not just words on a page, but point to a truism. The God who lives in our hearts is the most trustwothy "person" in the universe. If you trust Him as He guides you into the meaning of all these Scriptures, you will do well. If you don't, you will fail. That is a fact you can't avoid. It doesn't even matter if you don't believe it.

I am tired of being strident, so I will stop now.
 
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Gary K

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Concerning the need to reconcile my views "with all Scriptures", I will say that is not my job. My job is to trust God the Father and God the Son who live in me in the person of the Holy Spirit as He leads me into all truth. Here is the Scripture:

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27) NKJV​

These are not just words on a page, but point to a truism. The God who lives in our hearts is the most trustwothy "person" in the universe. If you trust Him as He guides you into the meaning of all these Scriptures, you will do well. If you don't, you will fail. That is a fact you can't avoid. It doesn't even matter if you don't believe it.

I am tired of being strident, so I will stop now.
OK No problem. I've taken care of my responsibility.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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It is not funny that a Baptist minister (PrincetonGuy) would like a comment from one person accusing the other of conscious rebellion against God's word just so that person may hold on to his beliefs that he knows are against Scripture, especially when the issue at hand is well-known and well-debated, with otherwise honorable people on both sides. Disagreeing on a point of Scripture does not give anyone the right to impune the character of another person.
What!!! I know nothing about Gary’s character but I seriously doubt that he intended to impugn your character. If, however, that was his intention, I most certainly disapprove. Nonetheless, I do believe that belief in a Johnny-come-lately doctrine such as eternal security tends to rebel against the plainly written word of God.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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What!!! I know nothing about Gary’s character but I seriously doubt that he intended to impugn your character. If, however, that was his intention, I most certainly disapprove. Nonetheless, I do believe that belief in a Johnny-come-lately doctrine such as eternal security tends to rebel against the plainly written word of God.
At least you didn’t mean that.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I didn’t mean to insult him, i was just happy he wasn't liking what i felt was an insult to me. The “at least” part was my disagreement with his statements about eternal security. But all’s good. I’m ok with you having a Baptist minister as an ally in the eternal security debate.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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How are you doing otherwise? I started a thread soliciting pithy jingles for the opposing viewpoint to OSAS. Why don’t both of you post some alternatives, then we can vote for the best one, then we can put it through same of the same scrutiny that OSAS has enjoyed over the years. I’ll renew my call for ideas on that thread in a few minutes.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I most certainly did mean it. As a pastor, I am obligated to know and to tell the truth even though that is very unpopular in some of our churches.
I was talking about you not liking what i took as an insult. I understand why you oppose osas.
 
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Gary K

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How are you doing otherwise? I started a thread soliciting pithy jingles for the opposing viewpoint to OSAS. Why don’t both of you post some alternatives, then we can vote for the best one, then we can put it through same of the same scrutiny that OSAS has enjoyed over the years. I’ll renew my call for ideas on that thread in a few minutes.
No thanks. I'm not into mockery any more.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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It’s not mockery. I want to put alternate views through the same rigors that OSAS has gone through. I just added one based on our conversation… Leave Jesus, you die (LJYD).

I actually think that one is true, except i don’t believe a saved person (one in whom Jesus lives) could do it.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This is a bit off topic but thought I would address the scripture posted because some of the context was not posted.

I believe the testimony that God has given of His Son, not only because I believe the Scriptures, but I see Jesus living in my own heart as the Scriptures say He does, and seeing Him there gives me assurance the He will never let anything come between us. His ability to keep me safe from all harm is a halmark of eternal life, as these Scriptures say:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:27–30)​

What part of "they shall never perish" Do you not undertand?
Lets bring back context to this scripture... this is a conditional promise.

John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

So we know from this scripture this is a conditional promised based on the following...

  1. We have to believe Jesus, and this is not the same as believing in Him, we have to believe Him enough to believe His teachings and believe them enough to follow them, not just hear them. James 1:22
  2. Jesus does His Fathers will, He states this several times during His ministry and that we must also do His Fathers will. John 6:38, Matthew 7:21-23
  3. His sheep hear His voice- We know His voice because we pray to Him and read His Word which is how He speaks to us.
  4. Jesus also knows us. How does He know us according to scripture? We obey Him. 1 John 2:3
  5. We must follow Him meaning we must become followers of Christ. He not only came to pay the penalty of sin so those in Him can receive the promise of eternal life, but He lived to show us how to be a follow of Him and lived to be our perfect example 1 John 2:6 Jesus came to save us from sin, Matthew 1:21, not in them and sin is the transgression of His law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and through Him we can overcome sin and become a new creature because Jesus changes us from the inside and we want to follow Him and be obedient to Him through our faith and love. Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3 this is how a saved person lives. Rev 14:12

So we need to get through all these conditions before we can get to the promises. Skipping over the conditions many might be disappointed by the Words of Jesus at His Second Coming. Jesus tells us a head of time and we need to believe His Word and He tells us because He loves us and wants us to make better decisions.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord (believers),’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ, and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life,’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
 
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Gary K

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Indeed, mine is post #48, which is quoted in your post #49.
Well that's confusing. You tell me your post is#49 and then tell me it is is #is #49. I don't see that you ever posted a reply to my post about the Talmud as #48 certainly does't. It's your accusation of me being self righteous.
 
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Clare73

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Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)
Here it is in context,
22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to.
"No one" in every language excludes everyone, even oneself.

Let's not monkey with the plain language.
The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ, and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life,’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
 
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Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
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"No one" in every language excludes everyone, even oneself.

Let's not monkey with the plain language.
So you're someone who believes you gave up your free will when you became a Christian?
 
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